Bioware vs. their Fans

[Warachia]

I still like 'em
Sure, Mass Effect 3's ending sucked, and Dragon Age 2 wasn't as good as the first, but I'd rather play a Bioware game over many other games being release nowadays.

I completely agree, although I don't understand how other companies can keep fans when you compare them, like bethesda and obsidian, where they put out half finished products, and yet people will overlook all of their faults for some reason.

Obsidian isnt exactly fair, they were given Bethesda tools to work with, you cant exactly dig a very good hole with a shovel made out of cheese after all

Bethesda though, people overlook them because they know what they are getting in the package. They know that there is a ton of potential but you have to suffer through a bug or twelve, but the potential is always there.

The time people get pissed off is when they are blindsided.

Obsidian has a consistent track record of releasing rushed and shoddy products with it occasionally not being their fault (KOTOR2), I don't give them any points with the engine because there were already updates in FO3 that fixed the problems they had in NV, as well as plenty of fan patches that would also have fixed the engine if they'd use them.

But why do we overlook them? Just because we expect them to be full of bugs doesn't mean we should accept it, if it does mean that than we might as well give Micheal Bay great film reviews, because he did what we expected him to do.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Oh, when I saw the title I thought that maybe the latest little bit of scuttle butt about the ME3 DLC and the rumored next ME game had gotten and the Internet had finally challenged Bioware to a good'old showdown.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

I'm posting on an Bioware suxs now thread

Spoiler: I can already tell, you and I are going to be best friends.

Not "Fans," but rather "Some Fans."

Okay

I'm a Bioware fan who loved DA2 and ME3. I feel like Bioware has only gotten better over time.

Oh shit

I liked KotOR, but I felt that KotOR 2 was better...the writing was better, more gray and less black and white.

Ummmmm

With ME2/3 and DA:O/DA3 I feel like Obsidian

Oh, nevermind. You know

With ME2/3 and DA:O/DA3 I feel like Obsidian rubbed off on them and their plots were more interesting and in depth.

Hah ha ha ha haha

I've been particularly impressed with the experimentation and risks they've taken in narrative really working to do something different and new with RPG conventions

Ok, this part I don't get. RPG conventions?

I loved the darkness they've injected into the newer games

I pray to Azathoth you're not talking about darkspawn, collectors or that fucking little kid. Actually, scratch that, nothing in any of Bioware's games (nothing recent most of all) even comes close to "dark". Except maybe Jacob, you racist prick.

I really love the things they done to decenter the protagonist in interesting ways.

Again, I'm not quite sure what you mean. James Sunderland was "decentered". So was Alan Wake and Desmond Miles. I don't think I'd call Space Super Soldier Commander Shepard or Fabulously Rich Adventure Noble Hawke "decentered".

I think it is great that people hit on you in DA2

You probably think the same thing in real life. Am I right?

and that you aren't the most powerful person in Kirkwall

The thousands of mercenaries, bandits and mages you HAVE to slaughter would say otherwise

and that it is a city based game.

You can have that one

I love that there are some bad things that you can't stop.

I can't think of a single other game that does that. Except maybe... allllll of them?

I love that sometimes the best outcomes come from being diplomatic and that sometimes the best outcomes come from being aggressive.

I'm not sure we were playing the same games. The outcome (in all their games) vary only slightly. "Diplomatic" can be easily substituted with "you were really good or you were really bad so you got extra dialogue options".

I love the Dwarven levels in DA:O.

Nice

I love the opening death in ME2, and that some of your team mates can end up dead if you haven't done enough and don't know them well enough...and that then, is that.

While the fact that they might die because you didn't talk to them enough makes no sense I will admit that it is cool that you can lose team members permanently.

I love the ending of ME3

You love a lot of things in this post

I love the real personal touches with your teammates

Not sure what you mean again. You hardly get any interaction with returning teammates in ME3. Much less than the previous two games and I found it hardly satisfactory. But that's just me.

They had me getting teary multiple times throughout that game.

If they didn't feel so forced and they weren't absolutely pointles (that's right Mordin, Thane and Legion died for nothing) I'd let you have that one too.

I love how well crafted the entire ME3 is.

Do you mean the part where they cut corners or the part where they should've delayed it but pushed it out anyway?

Yeah, for me...I think Bioware has only been getting better and better.

Did you play Baldur's Gate? Jade Empire? Neverwinter Nights? Baldur's Gate 2?

They have great politics and clearly care a lot about their work.

That's why they made sure the ending to ME3 had everything they wanted in it before they released it. Right?

I will, without hesitation, pre-order any game they put out in the next 5 years. They have my loyalty.

I am so sorry this happened to you.

 

[DustyDrB]

I still put that at either #1 or 2 as my favorite developer (competing with Obsidian). Mass Effect 3 was outstanding except for two things: the ending, and Shepard speaking on his own too much. Mass Effect 2 is still my favorite game. Dragon Age 2 was decent, though I get why people hate it. Really, the only game of theirs I didn't enjoy much was Jade Empire.

 

[UltraPic]

They never recovered from forcing unnecessary hardware updates to play nvn2, maybe that's why they moved to the casual market.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Well a bad Bioware game is still better then a good Capcom game in my eyes.

Lets play a game. I'll put down a couple Capcom games and a couple Bioware games and you tell me which ones you thought were better.

Resident Evil 1, 2, 3 and 4 (at least)
Devil May Cry 1 and 3
Street Fighter
Onimusha
killer7
Mega Man

Versus

Dragon Age 2
Mass Effect 3
​

And the winner is?

 

[Lupus80]

Bioware has definitely fumbled with the ending of Mass Effect 3. Before I was a Mass Effect fanboy- totally prepared to buy anything with the franchise slapped on it- and the ending totally made me turn from being a fanboy who would buy the next Mass Effect product without a second thought to a cautious fan who will give a good sober second and third thought before buying anything else.

Still I like Bioware. I do not share the opinion that Mass Effect 2 was "dumbed down" or inferior. When I played it I was amazed how much Bioware listened to their fans and implimented changes to reflect both the praise and criticism they got from MS1. It was a good sign they were a company that cared about what their consumers wanted. Although some things were taken out that I thought could have been really great if they expanded it (like the MAKO), Mass Effect 2 still remains one of my favourite games.

I had the same feelings for Mass Effect 3- up until the ending.

I guess this is a case where the pain hits harder because the game, and the studio behind it, was really good, and shows great potential. If the studio was known for crappy games then no one would care (unless they made the next Superman 64). It is always more disappointing to see someone who you know is really good, and has the potential to be really great, fail so hard.

I'm willing to give them another chance.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I don't know what world you're living in, ME2 was a fantastic game

Agreed. Mass Effect 2 is one of my favorite games of all time. Mass Effect 3 would have trumped it in every way if it wasn't for the nonsensical ending.

 

[Lionsfan]

Is there any game-developer that hasn't gone through this? I don't think it's just a Bioware exclusive

Bethesda really hasn't. They got quite a bit of negative feedback about Oblivion, but it wasn't anything like BioWare's. Plus Skyrim seems to have won back a lot of them (though not all). There's actually a TES forum I've been going to regularly since Morrowind, and while there a lot of new faces, most of the old crowd is still around. We all still love the games, and, while there are complaints, we basically are just happy the company keeps making the kind of games we love.

The problem is BioWare has pretty much pulled a +90 degree turn and are making games for completely different audiences than they used to. I think that's where a lot of the bile comes from. It's like if Call of Duty's next installment was a turn based tactical shooter. Sure it might be good, but the current fans of the series are going to be annoyed.

That's the one company I was thinking of, sure they've pulled out shit like Horse Armor, but at least it's not required or anything. I mean I really can't think of anything wrong that Bethesda has done (besides glitchy games)

Is there any game-developer that hasn't gone through this? I don't think it's just a Bioware exclusive

It's not, but a few that have gone through this didn't suffer the breadth nor scope of this mass-opinion change.

Sure, Blizzard, Valve, Rockstar, and others have been vilified by some of their die-hard fans (for one reason or another, regardless of whether the reasons were valid or not) but no where near to the extent Bioware has by damn near the majority of it's die-hard fan base.

It's startling really. I understand the ire fans have over Bioware essentially "phoning it in" for the finale, but to completely write off the company entirely is a bit extreme.

Sure, they're owned almost entirely by EA at this point (not completely, but give EA time. they find ways.), but they haven't completely changed. They're still making games in the same vein as they were in the past. For the most part anyway.

Therefore, if any of you were fans of them in the past you still should be. If you suddenly aren't, maybe you need to reassess how much of a "fan" you actually were back then.

And yeah, this level of hate is definitely unprecedented. But at least it's press right?

 

[lapan]

It's a combination of them misunderstanding what made people like their game series and them censoring any kind of negative criticism as flaming on their forums.

People liked Dragon Age for it's classic RPG feeling - Bioware: Let's make it more action RPGish

People liked Mass effect for it's mixture of RPG and TPS and the effect their choices had on the story - Bioware: Let's remove 90% of the RPG features and let's make 90% of the choices not have an effect on ME3. Then let's give it 3 predefined endings that have nothing to do with anything you decided before.

 

[biganemanja]

EA is the problem I say, they milk their games as much as they can, they care only about money and nothing else, notice the change happened when they joined the EA

 

[kael013]

I used to love BioWare. My first game by them was KotOR and I've bought every game they made since that one. I would keep up with all the latest dev comments about the games they were currently making, most of the time thinking that the game sounded awesome. I understand that some ideas get cut during development, but BioWare had usually been very good at changing their statements, letting us know what had been cut, etc. I loved ME2, DA2 wasn't a big deal-breaker for me, and all but the last 10 minutes of ME3 was awesome (as most fans, yes, even those in RetakeME3, would tell you).

However, after experiencing ME3's horribly broken ending I went back to look at the dev statements to see if they had said anything about that. Turns out they were saying [i/]up to release[/i] that there were 16 different endings and our previous choices would determine which we got. That's when I lost most of my faith in BioWare. They lied to my face about the product (yes a videogame is a PRODUCT, just as much as it is a piece of art) I was buying. Before I would have accepted what they said to be fact and determine if would like that aspect of the game or not. Now, whenever they say something I'm like "Yeah, whatever. I'll believe it when I read the reviews." They lost their integrity trying to sell this game. Sure they make great games, but that means nothing if everyone doesn't trust anything they say.

 

[johnnnny guitar]

I feel that deep in their heart that bioware is the devs I knew and loved but the cancer that is EA has just killed them for me with Online passes, Day One DLC, forced multiplayer and trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator have taken them away from their roots

 

[42]

wow a company you've been buying products from loses your loyalty over 2 games that are not actually crap, but didn't meet expectations? thats not loyalty. loyalty is staying with them through the good and the bad. and for the whole simplification of the RPG mechanics from ME1 to ME2 was actually quite a logical choice because the RPG mechanics in number 1 sucked balls. i don't care if that does start a flame war, its true. ME2 is the better game. except for Mako. Mako was awesome.

 

[irishda]

I don't agree that EA is responsible for cutting down Bioware. EA's more than willing to push new IP's (Mirror's Edge, Spore, Overstrike), but they operate under the fairly common business model of relying on "tent-pole" games that are pretty much guaranteed money-makers and using those proceeds to dabble in fringe elements.

Unfortunately, the guaranteed money makers are the sports games and the "dumbed down" titles that hardcore gamers like to vilify for some reason.

However, I am glad that this thread has a lot of people saying "I'm not gonna deny Bioware games outright, but I will be more careful with them" because that is exactly what smart customers do. Shit, I bought games purely on the basis of "what looked fun to me" before DSL internet told me what was coming and from who. I never would've discovered games like Gothic 2, Dynasty Warriors 5, Painkiller, half of the PS2's library, or Mirror's Edge if I went by developer.

 

[The Rainmaker]

I still love Bioware. Dragon age 2 sucked, and so did the ending to ME3, but I am willing to forgive it because the indoctrination theory makes so much sense and I have faith that Bioware is actually going to implement it in a DLC of some kind.

Also, fuck the haters, ME2 is one of the best games I have ever played, they don't deserve a shitstorm for dumbing down the RPG elements.

 

[zefiris]

thats not loyalty. loyalty is staying with them through the good and the bad.

That's not loyalty, that's insanity. You aren't bioware's friend, spouse, or daughter, you're their customer. And if they deliver bad products (and yes, DA2 was a genuinely bad game), then it's entirely reasonable to punish them for it.

This is how you assure that they improve. Sticking to them mindlessly does not improve anything and does not give you any loyalty points, it assures that the company keeps churning out bad products.

This is capitalism. It's the role of the consumer to punish bad business decisions. Deal. With. It.

However, I am glad that this thread has a lot of people saying "I'm not gonna deny Bioware games outright, but I will be more careful with them" because that is exactly what smart customers do

Precisely.

I will never understand this brand "Loyalty" people have. It doesn't help anyone, doesn't improve quality, and makes you miss games that are probably better than what your picked brand sells.

 

[Justanewguy]

The funny part is how even "bad" BioWare games can still be considered a lot better than a lot of what else there is on the gaming market, though still gonna be a while until next time I buy one of their games. Maybe if/when their new releases make their way to Steam, and then have a special discount.

Then in turn, the reason why they're not on Steam is because EA had to get whiny about Steam's DLC policies. Is it really that bad that one of the criterias for having a game available on Steam is that the DLC for that game should also be available there?

This is sort of where I am right now. Sure, Bioware has screwed up in a few cases, but ultimately they're still one of the best producers of quality games out there. I love Bioware games on a level only really shared by Bethesda Studios...and Bungie.

Odd...come to think of it...I may just like them for the first letters in their names...

I believe I have some soul searching to do...

 

[Elivercury]

I'd argue that the difference isn't their acquisition by EA and more self entitled fans planning out sequels in their heads which they then get upset about the sequel not matching.

I will admit, I've not actually played ME3 yet, but I personally found ME2 to be vastly superior to ME1. I also never really got this whole "dumbing down" argument for games. I could understand if it was in relation to starcraft 3 or something, but for what was already in the first place a shooter with RPG elements and in essence a very simple game already?

I've seen the same pissing and moaning about Skyrim further simplifying the skills/combat, yet I've enjoyed Skyrim far more than I did Oblivion.

I'd also add, that I've not actually seen/read any complaints about ME3 other than it's ending. The multiplayer has been far more successful than was expected when it was first announced, the single player (from what I can gather) is as strong as ever, there is a bit of fuss over the "gay shep" concept I guess, but bigots will be bigots.

 

[Shinigami214]

Not "Fans," but rather "Some Fans."

I'm a Bioware fan who loved DA2 and ME3. I feel like Bioware has only gotten better over time.

I liked KotOR, but I felt that KotOR 2 was better...the writing was better, more gray and less black and white.
With ME2/3 and DA:O/DA3 I feel like Obsidian rubbed off on them and their plots were more interesting and in depth.
I've been particularly impressed with the experimentation and risks they've taken in narrative really working to do something different and new with RPG conventions. I loved the darkness they've injected into the newer games. I really love the things they done to decenter the protagonist in interesting ways.

I think it is great that people hit on you in DA2, and that you aren't the most powerful person in Kirkwall, and that it is a city based game. I love that there are some bad things that you can't stop. I love that sometimes the best outcomes come from being diplomatic and that sometimes the best outcomes come from being aggressive.

I love the Dwarven levels in DA:O.

I love the opening death in ME2, and that some of your team mates can end up dead if you haven't done enough and don't know them well enough...and that then, is that.

I love the ending of ME3. I love the real personal touches with your teammates. The inside jokes, the humor, the care. They had me getting teary multiple times throughout that game. I love how well crafted the entire ME3 is.

Yeah, for me...I think Bioware has only been getting better and better. I just with they'd not have pulled back on the love scenes due to the alien side boob Fox news scandal. But the addition of male-male romance, the addition of a female Shep cover for ME3 as well as a male Shep cover. They have great politics and clearly care a lot about their work. I will, without hesitation, pre-order any game they put out in the next 5 years. They have my loyalty.

I loled.

Hard.