Black Thor Actor Talks About Racist Comic Book Fans

[bluewolf]

I don`t see the problem. It sounds like quiet an interesting idea.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

Heimdall being the white Aesir, described as being whiter than every other norse god.

 

[Technicka]

A whole lotta rambling

You're...pretty all over the place with what you're saying.

1. I never said "Black casting = PROGRESS!"

2. Thor is an action flick - so everyone's a badass in it (at least, on the side of the "gods")

3. For the most part, Jackson was pretty mellow in SW. On a Scale of how over-the-top Jackson can be, at any rate. And, well, compared to a lot of the wooden acting going on in the prequels, Tom Cruise could've been accused of hamming it up.

4. I never said the unbalanced hiring practices of Hollywood was some evil master plan by some phantom group of white people. I said it was a bunch of businesspeople playing it safe. If anything, I'm blaming us, the movie watchers for not pushing for a change in the status quo.

5. And, seriously, what is it with you and Jewish people?

 

[Raesvelg]

/shrug, it made relatively little difference to me that they cast Idris Elba in the role. It's... rather blatant multicultural shoe-horning, mind you, but some people feel that that's necessary.

Of course, I can spin this in another light, if you prefer.

Obviously the producers felt that they had to include some diversity in casting, because that's what's expected these days. So, who did they pick, character wise? Not a main character, no, we couldn't have a black Thor, or a black Odin.

So we pick a less prominent Asgardian to fill our required multicultural quota. I can accept this... but.

Who did they pick?

Heimdall.

What does Heimdall do?

Guards the Rainbow Bridge.

So they effectively cast a black man in the role of Lawn Jockey to the Gods.

If you look at it that way, it's even more racist than not having any black people in the movie at all.

 

[Danglybits]

Not talking about racial issues will NEVER solve them. I don't care about Thor at all, but he looks pretty badass in that armor.

 

[LaughingJester]

I'm Swedish. So it's "my people's" mythology that this is all based on.

I offer a big "fuck you" to anyone who complained about the casting, because Mr. Elba was awesome as Heimdall. He's the last of the Asgardians I would ever want to see a recast for.

I'm pretty happy to go with this view, I havent seen it yet and have been avoiding it given that it was compared to the latest Seth Rogen fail The Green Hornet

It's always a shame to have your expectations missed.

 

[OManoghue]

Granted the closest black person to Norway is in Algeria, but I think if he got the job he deserves it. Fanboys have to live with it.

 

[Danglybits]

They are about making money, and I agree there's a race issue, but we're looking at things based on different POV. You seem to think it's intentional "pro-white" racism, but it's the result of that greed and focus groups, explaining why it strays so far from the comics (I hear, I'm not a thor fan) to appeal to as many demographics as possible. I'm not saying he's not a good actor, but in this case it looks more like a token casting to exploit the "urban market". I'd be more angry about someone saying: "Comics fans are mostly white people, we need some black people watching... Find a badass role and put a popular black guy in it"

People say "I don't see the problem, he was a badass!", "He was such a badass in that role"

Notice none of the reserved or stoic characters are black, only the one that gets a lot of action to appeal to a demographic, which IS race-based casting and isn't positive for racial diversity AT ALL. It's exploiting a character (and racial) stereotype that "busts shit up".

Lucas did it too in star wars with Sam Jackson who didn't fit the role of a wise, reserved Jedi council member, and there are PLENTY of other black men who could fill that role perfectly, but Sam Jackson plays a particular kind of role in most movies he's in and he's popular, so they chose him, made him "badass" and spout crappy one-liners like he was in an action movie.

People seem to think that "A black guy is in that role, look at that progress!", but miss the bigger picture of why they're picked and it's not for the right reasons. Just because an actor is black, doesn't mean it's moving diversity forward when they're mostly playing ass-kicking "bad ases".

And I'm not "turning this around", I'm making you guys see your idea of some sinister white guys purposfully keeping movies unbalanced includes calling the many Jewish producers, directors, and writers "pro white money making" racists as well, not just the stereotypical straight white christian/atheist exec smoking a cigar. You can see a problem, but your finger is waggling at the wrong people.

Plinkett made the Star Wars observation and goes into it.

Well, the fact that you think "token" and not "good actor" when you see the name Idris Elba tells me you've never seen The Wire. (And the fact that you think that Mike Stoklasa was saying "whenever black people are cast in a movie, it's tokenism" and not "Samuel L. Jackson was an example of token casting in the Star Wars prequels" suggests to me that you were missing the point in that part of the review.)

And dude, what is your deal with Jewish people? Those comments are honestly coming off as a little creepy at this point.

I think it's hilarious you're trying to make me look racist for saying too many black actors play violent characters and not getting cast enough for the reserved stoic roles. This is why I said he was cast for the wrong reason, which you missed... Or did you skim over those parts?

You also complain about execs wanting to make money casting the way they do, and when I actually make a statement agreeing with you, saying they are casting a black man as a "Badass" once again to appeal to as many demographics as possible, making more money, you imply I'm racist AGAIN... and that I seem to be racist if I didn't think he's a good actor.

That's the point Plinkett was making; the problem with Sam Jackson's casting was not because he was black, it was because his race was exploited by Lucas to get the young black audiences to watch his movie because they would most likely go to watch HIM rather than a black actor who was better suited to the role, or in a different "non ass-kicking" role (token casting). That is what I'm saying about this situation. Him being black isn't the problem, it's how they're using his race to make money in a calculated casting decision based on stereotypes and popularity.

This is part of the problem right here, any criticism is assumed to be racism. That's why these nerds are pissed at the accusations; people are assuming their cricism is racism because they're white, not because they're comic fanboys and it's not fuckin' fair.

It's more than just comic book fans. The fact of the matter is just that calling someone a racist in our culture is the best way to not only discredit them, but to evade the point entirely by making the argument shift to them defending themselves as not racist.

That being said, I'm sure there were more than a few people who just didn't like the idea of a black Norse god because they are racist. Why? Because there are a lot of racists out there and they generally respond to this sort of stuff.

That doesn't mean that everyone who questions it is a racist though. Frankly the idea of a black Norse god seems to be deliberately provocative no matter which way you slice it, although this movie specifically escapes this by only being a comic book version of mythology set in space, and thus can allow for greater suspension of disbelief.

Of course there are real racists too, but they are a small minority, but the real problem of lumping them all together and making token casting decisions to make money don't get dismissed because of them.

It's that way in reality too. There are white supremacist groups out there, but it doesn't mean all white people are racist when they criticize something and it doesn't mean anyone who isn't white can't be racist themselves.

I agree about the scarcity of 'serious' roles for black actors versus action type movies. I don't think that the population of racists is a small minority though. There are many degrees of racism and prejudices aren't always obvious to the people that hold them; and no, being a racist isn't just a caucasian prerogative. Not by a long shot; and unlike white racists, racists of color get to be more open about it. Because, 'they can't be racist, they're not white'. It probably was deliberately provocative to cast him in this role; but to what end I wonder. The fact that I don't see a problem with this casting decision (having not seen the movie) makes me reconsider my stance on the Airbender movie somewhat.

Did anyone complain about making Halle Berry Catwoman? If not, is it because she wasn't Selina Kyle? Or because Halle Berry is hot? Or that no one cared about that movie? There are even fewer roles for black women out there.

 

[JochemDude]

It's not about who plays it, it's about how it's played
Oh one more thing to the directly above, page filling quotation discussion. Which I'm not even going to bother to fill another page with quoting it. I would just like to point out that there are no black and no white people, we are all just people.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

If you look at it that way, it's even more racist than not having any black people in the movie at all.

He's also supposed to be a drunk that sits around in his house. Extremely racist role.

 

[Jake the Snake]

I don't care that he was cast a norse god, I'm still going to like the movie. Although, I completely understand, in this one case, why people are bothered by it.

Scandinavians are literally, the whitest people on the planet. Seriously, pale skin and blonde hair. It doesn't get much whiter than that. Their gods were based around their local culture. That local culture didn't have black people, plain and simple. It isn't racism. It just blatant truth. I'm sure African gods weren't white, nor would I expect them to be.

 

[Blood Countess]

as a nordic pagan myself, this just does not bother me, it's a damn movie based off a comic book.It's fantasy and I am fine with him if he plays the role well.I mean I overlooked Kingpin in Daredevil black cause the Duncan Clark did so damn well so know who cares

 

[Undeadpool]

I wonder if anyone who has a problem with this is equally as pissed off about Jesus being white, or the kids in that terrible 21 movie being made white. I mean they MUST since they always claim it's not about racism, it's about accuracy. Otherwise...why, they'd be GIANT hypocrites!

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

It's more than just comic book fans. The fact of the matter is just that calling someone a racist in our culture is the best way to not only discredit them, but to evade the point entirely by making the argument shift to them defending themselves as not racist.

That being said, I'm sure there were more than a few people who just didn't like the idea of a black Norse god because they are racist. Why? Because there are a lot of racists out there and they generally respond to this sort of stuff.

That doesn't mean that everyone who questions it is a racist though. Frankly the idea of a black Norse god seems to be deliberately provocative no matter which way you slice it, although this movie specifically escapes this by only being a comic book version of mythology set in space, and thus can allow for greater suspension of disbelief.

Of course there are real racists too, but they are a small minority, but the real problem of lumping them all together and making token casting decisions to make money don't get dismissed because of them.

It's that way in reality too. There are white supremacist groups out there, but it doesn't mean all white people are racist when they criticize something and it doesn't mean anyone who isn't white can't be racist themselves.

??? Are you arguing against me? You basically just restated my comment.

I don't even know what 'racist' means anymore. It used to just mean hating a certain race of people, but now it doesn't matter how you feel about a group of people, you can still do unconscious racist things. Honestly I think people have just conflated the term 'prejudiced' with 'racist'. One can have a prejudice and not even realize it. After all, 'prejudice' is just the art of pre-judging something before all of the facts are in. We do it all of the time. Another name for it is just 'inductive reasoning'. Granted the two often go hand in hand, someone who hates a group of people will often tell you all sorts of horrible facts about them. The problem is that we've become so oversensitive that people are afraid to even talk about each other in terms of their perceived group identity for fear of somehow displaying some sort of prejudiced attitude. We've radicalized the very topic of race itself so that any mention of it will cause the accusations to start flying.

You're right. I think there is a basic fictional issue here about authenticity and expectations, but because it involves race it explodes into controversy. Ultimately I agree with Technicka: since it's a comic book, sci-fi version of mythology the issue of authenticity falls a bit flat.

However, as I've said multiple times before, you don't have to be a racist to find the idea of a black Norse god a bit weird. The Norse obviously thought of their gods in terms of their own appearance and would not have viewed one of them as black. To make one of them black in a movie that was trying to faithfully depict Norse mythology would not only be inaccurate, but would seem to contain some latent racially charged attitudes. Sure, they're not real, but honestly they weren't considered universal gods, they were racial gods. Even the Jews considered themselves to be the chosen people of their God. Hellenic civilization and afterward the Romans all had not only racial gods, but gods of specific towns, landmarks and even household gods. You have the exact same thing in Hinduism: religion is directly tied to one's race and caste; Brahmins are from the mouth of Brahma, Ksatriyas are from his arms etc. The idea of a universal God really only occurs in Christianity and Islam. To try to universalize the Norse gods just doesn't fit, they were the gods of the Norse people.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

If you look at it that way, it's even more racist than not having any black people in the movie at all.

He's also supposed to be a drunk that sits around in his house. Extremely racist role.

Mmm... You realize of course that that was the standard of Norse society. Try spending a winter in Sweden and NOT sit around drunk in your house! (Well, for the time period at least, I'm sure there's a bit more to do now with the advent of electric heating.)

 

[DanteRL]

I complained. I thought it was bad. But not because of color, just thought it was weird. And hey, I would complain if some studio puts a white guy to play Jax in a MK movie. And I BET a lot of people would say that this was offensive to african american culture. Not saying that there aren't a bunch of racist people talking about Thor. But there IS some hipocrisy in the whole "Oh that's racism" speech.

Haven't seen Thor yet, and never really read much of his comics, so I don't mind about this one.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Snip

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It's not really the same, your talking about nationality's there based on current location, not aesthetic looks based on genetics which can't be changed.

An genetically if you take your average brit or aussise they are going to be a lot more like a Nordic person than a black person. (especially when if you take into account that the last major invasion of Britain was the Normans who were Vikings that settled in northern France, and between the fall of Rome and this time Scandinavians had been settling in and raiding Britain, plus originally Britain was first populated by people from Scandinavia and mainland Europe. An then of course Australia was colonised by Britain)+ the fact genetically upper central europe (germany, austria, france, uk an scandinavia) are very similar

I mean come on can you not see the difference

There is a difference between, not looking 100% the stereotypical Roman (I mean you would have to be under 5"10 to realistically pull it off an even then be very tall for a roman), but being able to pull it off, and having a black actor playing a white role, I mean if your doing a local play or a small budjet film by all means just cast the best actors at your disposal first then worry about if it works. But this is a block buster movie, they can cast from the entire world!

Well, actually a modern British person wouldn't look Norse at all to an ancient Scandinavian. Different hair color, different complexion, different height, different build, etc. They also look very different from modern Scandinavians. We classify both ethnicities as "white," but "white" is a cultural construct that is a handful of centuries old. (That, btw, we keep changing - e.g., the Irish or the Italians were not always considered "white.")

Before that, it was about who on Noah's ark you were supposedly descended from, and before that (and to the Norse) it was about what tribe/city you were from. The concept of race as a "spectrum" is also a recent invention. To the Norse, it was "like us" and "not like us."

So if the goal is to be true to the Norse mythology, British actors of British descent are just as foreign to the ancient Norse as British actors of Sub-Saharan African descent.

tl;dr: worrying about whether the actors for this movie "look Norse" to our modern eyes is not important. What is important is how good they are at playing their roles.

None of what you said is true, I know that your average white British person is fairly similar to your average Viking would have been (if you gruff them up a bit) because I studied it when I did archaeology

"Different hair color, different complexion, different height, different build" you do know that that Scandinavians came in all shapes and size's its just that the averages were different

If it were not for diet and modern health care you would find it very hard to differentiate between the bones of a white Briton from the modern era as you would a Viking from a 1000 years ago.

I'm no expert, but I know this as fact, that you can find people living in Australia and the UK not to far off the racial profile of that of a Norse person form a 1000 years ago. and there are allot of people with those genes that make them look some what similar, and I bet there are a fuck load of actors who have that kind of look so I don't think its too strange to say they could of cast someone who actauly looks more Norse. I'm mean I'm not being funny but it don't take a genius to figure out that there were not many black Vikings . . .

Well, hate to rain on your "I took an archaeology class once" parade, but ancient Norse were an entirely separate ethnic group from ancient Britons - different language, different culture, different gods, different ancestry, different features - and each group saw the other group as a different ethnicity. There were even considerable ethnic differences between people living in different parts of the British Isles and different parts of Scandinavia, for crying out loud.

In other words, Anthony Hopkins isn't any more "Norse" than Idris Elba because neither of them, if they hopped in a time machine and went back to ancient Scandinavia, would be seen as anything other than foreign. So, in other words, the central point is who plays the role well, not how much melanin they have.

There are ethnographic differences as well. Sure, you're not going to be able to tell much from someone's femur, but good ethnologists can tell you from your facial structure where your ancestors likely came from. There are certain facial structures that are Norse, and certain facial structures that are Briton, etc. etc.

However, you're wrong to say that it's absolute and not a continuum. While Antony Hopkins might not have the traditional Norse facial structure, a black skinned person would very obviously be seen as more foreign than a Briton. You're committing to a perfectionist fallacy: if it isn't a perfect fit then it's no different than the worst fit.

If this were a faithful rendition of Norse mythology then it would just be inaccurate to have a black guy play one of their gods. Sure to a lesser degree it's also inaccurate for a non Nordic white person to play the part, but to have a black guy playing the role would almost be as much as an anachronism as the characters using iPhones. It would just take people out of the movie. Sure, Anthony Hopkins is a great actor, but even if he was the greatest actor in the world I wouldn't watch a role where he plays a woman, I just can't suspend disbelief.