Black Thor Actor Talks About Racist Comic Book Fans

[JochemDude]

It's not about who plays it, it's about how it's played
Oh one more thing to the directly above, page filling quotation discussion. Which I'm not even going to bother to fill another page with quoting it. I would just like to point out that there are no black and no white people, we are all just people.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

If you look at it that way, it's even more racist than not having any black people in the movie at all.

He's also supposed to be a drunk that sits around in his house. Extremely racist role.

 

[Jake the Snake]

I don't care that he was cast a norse god, I'm still going to like the movie. Although, I completely understand, in this one case, why people are bothered by it.

Scandinavians are literally, the whitest people on the planet. Seriously, pale skin and blonde hair. It doesn't get much whiter than that. Their gods were based around their local culture. That local culture didn't have black people, plain and simple. It isn't racism. It just blatant truth. I'm sure African gods weren't white, nor would I expect them to be.

 

[Blood Countess]

as a nordic pagan myself, this just does not bother me, it's a damn movie based off a comic book.It's fantasy and I am fine with him if he plays the role well.I mean I overlooked Kingpin in Daredevil black cause the Duncan Clark did so damn well so know who cares

 

[Undeadpool]

I wonder if anyone who has a problem with this is equally as pissed off about Jesus being white, or the kids in that terrible 21 movie being made white. I mean they MUST since they always claim it's not about racism, it's about accuracy. Otherwise...why, they'd be GIANT hypocrites!

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

It's more than just comic book fans. The fact of the matter is just that calling someone a racist in our culture is the best way to not only discredit them, but to evade the point entirely by making the argument shift to them defending themselves as not racist.

That being said, I'm sure there were more than a few people who just didn't like the idea of a black Norse god because they are racist. Why? Because there are a lot of racists out there and they generally respond to this sort of stuff.

That doesn't mean that everyone who questions it is a racist though. Frankly the idea of a black Norse god seems to be deliberately provocative no matter which way you slice it, although this movie specifically escapes this by only being a comic book version of mythology set in space, and thus can allow for greater suspension of disbelief.

Of course there are real racists too, but they are a small minority, but the real problem of lumping them all together and making token casting decisions to make money don't get dismissed because of them.

It's that way in reality too. There are white supremacist groups out there, but it doesn't mean all white people are racist when they criticize something and it doesn't mean anyone who isn't white can't be racist themselves.

??? Are you arguing against me? You basically just restated my comment.

I don't even know what 'racist' means anymore. It used to just mean hating a certain race of people, but now it doesn't matter how you feel about a group of people, you can still do unconscious racist things. Honestly I think people have just conflated the term 'prejudiced' with 'racist'. One can have a prejudice and not even realize it. After all, 'prejudice' is just the art of pre-judging something before all of the facts are in. We do it all of the time. Another name for it is just 'inductive reasoning'. Granted the two often go hand in hand, someone who hates a group of people will often tell you all sorts of horrible facts about them. The problem is that we've become so oversensitive that people are afraid to even talk about each other in terms of their perceived group identity for fear of somehow displaying some sort of prejudiced attitude. We've radicalized the very topic of race itself so that any mention of it will cause the accusations to start flying.

You're right. I think there is a basic fictional issue here about authenticity and expectations, but because it involves race it explodes into controversy. Ultimately I agree with Technicka: since it's a comic book, sci-fi version of mythology the issue of authenticity falls a bit flat.

However, as I've said multiple times before, you don't have to be a racist to find the idea of a black Norse god a bit weird. The Norse obviously thought of their gods in terms of their own appearance and would not have viewed one of them as black. To make one of them black in a movie that was trying to faithfully depict Norse mythology would not only be inaccurate, but would seem to contain some latent racially charged attitudes. Sure, they're not real, but honestly they weren't considered universal gods, they were racial gods. Even the Jews considered themselves to be the chosen people of their God. Hellenic civilization and afterward the Romans all had not only racial gods, but gods of specific towns, landmarks and even household gods. You have the exact same thing in Hinduism: religion is directly tied to one's race and caste; Brahmins are from the mouth of Brahma, Ksatriyas are from his arms etc. The idea of a universal God really only occurs in Christianity and Islam. To try to universalize the Norse gods just doesn't fit, they were the gods of the Norse people.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

If you look at it that way, it's even more racist than not having any black people in the movie at all.

He's also supposed to be a drunk that sits around in his house. Extremely racist role.

Mmm... You realize of course that that was the standard of Norse society. Try spending a winter in Sweden and NOT sit around drunk in your house! (Well, for the time period at least, I'm sure there's a bit more to do now with the advent of electric heating.)

 

[DanteRL]

I complained. I thought it was bad. But not because of color, just thought it was weird. And hey, I would complain if some studio puts a white guy to play Jax in a MK movie. And I BET a lot of people would say that this was offensive to african american culture. Not saying that there aren't a bunch of racist people talking about Thor. But there IS some hipocrisy in the whole "Oh that's racism" speech.

Haven't seen Thor yet, and never really read much of his comics, so I don't mind about this one.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Snip

Snip

It's not really the same, your talking about nationality's there based on current location, not aesthetic looks based on genetics which can't be changed.

An genetically if you take your average brit or aussise they are going to be a lot more like a Nordic person than a black person. (especially when if you take into account that the last major invasion of Britain was the Normans who were Vikings that settled in northern France, and between the fall of Rome and this time Scandinavians had been settling in and raiding Britain, plus originally Britain was first populated by people from Scandinavia and mainland Europe. An then of course Australia was colonised by Britain)+ the fact genetically upper central europe (germany, austria, france, uk an scandinavia) are very similar

I mean come on can you not see the difference

There is a difference between, not looking 100% the stereotypical Roman (I mean you would have to be under 5"10 to realistically pull it off an even then be very tall for a roman), but being able to pull it off, and having a black actor playing a white role, I mean if your doing a local play or a small budjet film by all means just cast the best actors at your disposal first then worry about if it works. But this is a block buster movie, they can cast from the entire world!

Well, actually a modern British person wouldn't look Norse at all to an ancient Scandinavian. Different hair color, different complexion, different height, different build, etc. They also look very different from modern Scandinavians. We classify both ethnicities as "white," but "white" is a cultural construct that is a handful of centuries old. (That, btw, we keep changing - e.g., the Irish or the Italians were not always considered "white.")

Before that, it was about who on Noah's ark you were supposedly descended from, and before that (and to the Norse) it was about what tribe/city you were from. The concept of race as a "spectrum" is also a recent invention. To the Norse, it was "like us" and "not like us."

So if the goal is to be true to the Norse mythology, British actors of British descent are just as foreign to the ancient Norse as British actors of Sub-Saharan African descent.

tl;dr: worrying about whether the actors for this movie "look Norse" to our modern eyes is not important. What is important is how good they are at playing their roles.

None of what you said is true, I know that your average white British person is fairly similar to your average Viking would have been (if you gruff them up a bit) because I studied it when I did archaeology

"Different hair color, different complexion, different height, different build" you do know that that Scandinavians came in all shapes and size's its just that the averages were different

If it were not for diet and modern health care you would find it very hard to differentiate between the bones of a white Briton from the modern era as you would a Viking from a 1000 years ago.

I'm no expert, but I know this as fact, that you can find people living in Australia and the UK not to far off the racial profile of that of a Norse person form a 1000 years ago. and there are allot of people with those genes that make them look some what similar, and I bet there are a fuck load of actors who have that kind of look so I don't think its too strange to say they could of cast someone who actauly looks more Norse. I'm mean I'm not being funny but it don't take a genius to figure out that there were not many black Vikings . . .

Well, hate to rain on your "I took an archaeology class once" parade, but ancient Norse were an entirely separate ethnic group from ancient Britons - different language, different culture, different gods, different ancestry, different features - and each group saw the other group as a different ethnicity. There were even considerable ethnic differences between people living in different parts of the British Isles and different parts of Scandinavia, for crying out loud.

In other words, Anthony Hopkins isn't any more "Norse" than Idris Elba because neither of them, if they hopped in a time machine and went back to ancient Scandinavia, would be seen as anything other than foreign. So, in other words, the central point is who plays the role well, not how much melanin they have.

There are ethnographic differences as well. Sure, you're not going to be able to tell much from someone's femur, but good ethnologists can tell you from your facial structure where your ancestors likely came from. There are certain facial structures that are Norse, and certain facial structures that are Briton, etc. etc.

However, you're wrong to say that it's absolute and not a continuum. While Antony Hopkins might not have the traditional Norse facial structure, a black skinned person would very obviously be seen as more foreign than a Briton. You're committing to a perfectionist fallacy: if it isn't a perfect fit then it's no different than the worst fit.

If this were a faithful rendition of Norse mythology then it would just be inaccurate to have a black guy play one of their gods. Sure to a lesser degree it's also inaccurate for a non Nordic white person to play the part, but to have a black guy playing the role would almost be as much as an anachronism as the characters using iPhones. It would just take people out of the movie. Sure, Anthony Hopkins is a great actor, but even if he was the greatest actor in the world I wouldn't watch a role where he plays a woman, I just can't suspend disbelief.

 

[Boba Frag]

I made a LOT of Stringer Bell from The Wire jokes about Thor in the run up to see the film, purely because Idris Elba has incredible presence and charisma on screen, be it tv or film.
I would find it very amusing if Jimmy McNulty came riding up on a chariot piss drunk, with a visibly drunk Bunk Moreland in tow, naturally sporting a sword and drinking horn!

If I could level one criticism at Thor it would be that Idris Elba wasn't in it enough, and that there was little need to augment his naturally rich and powerful voice.

To the issue of the racial abuse that has been slung at the casting choice, I think there would be a problem if we were dealing with a movie dealing with actual Scandanavians and the ancient Norse gods.

We are not dealing with that in Thor.
Jack Kirby, one of Thor's developers and the man who designed the character, was a really big fan of the literary spin of gods as hyper advanced beings where science is so advanced it's indistinguishable from magic. This was something advanced by Arthur C. Clarke, and is actually referenced in the movie by Jane Foster.

This is the interpretation of Thor that Brannagh's film seems to be following quite closely as the sci-fi elements, not fantastical, are what will help tie Thor into the larger Marvel Universe we are witnessing on screen.

I was as surprised as anyone by the casting choice, but being a huge fan of Elba's work- he dominates the screen, even without the gleaming armour and luminescent eyes- I can honestly say I'm delighted he was in the picture.

Seeing as how the Asgard of the film is very much a stellar capital of space faring race, then it's absolute nonsense to object to the casting choice as being from what's essentially an alien race, there is no reason why Asgardians cannot share the same genetic diversity as humans in skin colour, appearance etc.

There seems to be no such fuss made over Hogun the Grim, although to be fair the character in the comics is actually Asian/Mongolian in appearance.

 

[Weskerbot3000]

proof that people are fuckheads, they will ***** about ANYTHING

 

[Jake0fTrades]

I'm no expert or anything, but I don't think anyone of direct Nordic descent was black, that'd be like having Bruce Willis play Malcolm X.

I'm sure this guy does a great job, but I can understand where these critics are coming from.

Except Malcolm X was a real person. Heimdall? Not so much.

And as for the issue of decent, well, that's up for debate. I can trace my family tree back to the Netherlands to around the 1500s, and I'm pretty obviously black, so who's to say that some Viking didn't have his way with an African and their descendant pops up in the UK generations later?

Again, I'm not an expert. But my point is, it's not about preference--which would make someone racist--it's about staying true to the facts.

 

[Poofs]

It is a sad day when wanting something to stay true to it's source material is considered 'racist'

 

[Technicka]

It is a sad day when wanting something to stay true to it's source material is considered 'racist'

Considering that no waves were made when the news of an Asian was cast in a similar role, it raises a big red flag about what the true motivation is. Not to mention all the dozens of other inaccuracies between the movie and comics (or actual Norse mythology).

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

There are ethnographic differences as well. Sure, you're not going to be able to tell much from someone's femur, but good ethnologists can tell you from your facial structure where your ancestors likely came from. There are certain facial structures that are Norse, and certain facial structures that are Briton, etc. etc.

However, you're wrong to say that it's absolute and not a continuum. While Antony Hopkins might not have the traditional Norse facial structure, a black skinned person would very obviously be seen as more foreign than a Briton. You're committing to a perfectionist fallacy: if it isn't a perfect fit then it's no different than the worst fit.

If this were a faithful rendition of Norse mythology then it would just be inaccurate to have a black guy play one of their gods. Sure to a lesser degree it's also inaccurate for a non Nordic white person to play the part, but to have a black guy playing the role would almost be as much as an anachronism as the characters using iPhones. It would just take people out of the movie. Sure, Anthony Hopkins is a great actor, but even if he was the greatest actor in the world I wouldn't watch a role where he plays a woman, I just can't suspend disbelief.

I agree that it's anachronistic to Norse mythology - 99% of the ancient Norse were probably not even aware that dark skin is a possibility. My opinion though is more that if we say:
A) the Norse gods in our movie are actually aliens with advanced technology,
B) they're played by British actors with British accents,
C) Odin's a maker of peace vs. a god of war,
D) Thor has a giant suit of armor called "Destroyer"
and so on, it's not really a significant deviation from the source material in the light of all that to cast Heimdall as black, because we are clearly not trying to portray the Norse gods as the Norse would have seen them.

Oh, I completely agree. ESPECIALLY with C, I don't think it's really even Norse mythology at that point. It's one thing to change small things but they've changed what's really the essential normative characteristic of Norse mythology. It's like having a movie about Jesus where he acts like Duke Nukem. I just want to be clear that a true rendition of Norse mythology wouldn't have black gods, and it isn't racist to say so, that's just the reasonable expectation.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Oh, I completely agree. ESPECIALLY with C, I don't think it's really even Norse mythology at that point. It's one thing to change small things but they've changed what's really the essential normative characteristic of Norse mythology. It's like having a movie about Jesus where he acts like Duke Nukem. I just want to be clear that a true rendition of Norse mythology wouldn't have black gods, and it isn't racist to say so, that's just the reasonable expectation.

Oh, yeah - I can definitely agree with that, if we're going for historical accuracy. It's just that I don't think the goal of this movie is to be historically accurate haha

I know it isn't, but still, I think there's a point at which something is so fundamentally different from what it's adapted from that it ceases to be an adaptation and becomes a misappropriation. For me it isn't even remotely the black actor that does it, it's saying that the gods stand for the exact opposite of what they traditionally stand for.

 

[t3h br0th3r]

Mabey they ought to have more black people in the marvel universe, it worked for Hemidal, worked for Nick Fury, and worked for Green Lantern in the cartoon. worked for Aqua Lad too... I mean do you have any idea how hard that is, they made aquaman's version or robin pretty dang hard.


Besides, it isn't like they broke the rule of three. If they did that people would REALLY start acting crazy.

Rule of three
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16sKK-1oLQ&feature=player_embedded

 

[T-004]

"I think he perform excellently as Heimdall in the film. I don't get the whole issue seeing how in Daredevil the Kingpin was played by Michael Clarke Duncan (well ok added with the whole Norse God stuff) but serious while I can get how certain stuff should be accurate to the comics but with casting actors to which characters should not be a problem." - Scarim Coral

Shhhh! We don't talk about Daredevil, it didn't happen

When I first heard that Heimdall would be played by a black man I thought it odd, but having seen the film I think he was the perfect choice.
He gave personality to a background character and stood out on the merit of his performance in a film with some very strong foreground characters such as Chris Hemsworth.

I think that overall the casting in this film was inspired and I cant wait to see the next arc of the story.

P.S. Sorry about the manual quote, for some reason the button wouldn't work?

 

[Saelune]

It depends for me. Sometimes you get Ultimate Nick, one of the FEW good Ultimate characters. I wont cry over a black Heimdall, but if they made Thor or Odin black, I would not be so cool with it. Its a canon thing though. When movies mess with comic book canon...you get Wolverine Origins....*shiver*

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Oh, I completely agree. ESPECIALLY with C, I don't think it's really even Norse mythology at that point. It's one thing to change small things but they've changed what's really the essential normative characteristic of Norse mythology. It's like having a movie about Jesus where he acts like Duke Nukem. I just want to be clear that a true rendition of Norse mythology wouldn't have black gods, and it isn't racist to say so, that's just the reasonable expectation.

Oh, yeah - I can definitely agree with that, if we're going for historical accuracy. It's just that I don't think the goal of this movie is to be historically accurate haha

I know it isn't, but still, I think there's a point at which something is so fundamentally different from what it's adapted from that it ceases to be an adaptation and becomes a misappropriation. For me that isn't even remotely the black actor that does it, it's saying that the gods stand for the exact opposite of what they traditionally stand for.

Haha, seriously. I went into the trailer expecting it to be about Norse mythology, and went all ಠ_ಠ when I heard Odin get angry at Thor for "breaking the peace."

Yup. In the back of my mind I knew that there's no way they'd let something pro-war in general into a comic book, but I still experienced the same combination of shock, confusion and disgust when I heard that line.

Plus I thought they had cast the black dude as Loki and I figured there would be HELL to pay in the media for the obvious racial connotations of that. Glad to see I was wrong, there would be a HUGE backlash had he been Loki.