Blaming the victim

[Marter]

In sexual assault/rape cases, no, blaming the victim isn't right.

I do think that people should always put themselves in the best position to avoid such things from happening. It's like the Boarding call in hockey nowadays. Victims often turn their back to an oncoming player, and when they get checked, it is partially their fault for putting themselves in a vulnerable position. Not that they should get the blame, just like in the case mentioned in the OP, but they should still avoid putting themselves in a potentially dangerous position.

 

[subtlefuge]

For the record, the bible says if I want to rape a woman who has no husband or fiance, it is okay, so long as you pay back her father (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). Or, if you are in the tribe of Israel and god didn't provide you with a wife (Judges 21:20-23). Better yet, try to rape a man! If you try, but stop, it is okay for you to rape TWO women instead (Judges 19:24-25).

I never would rape anyone. Not because I don't have $2350 to buy 50 pieces of silver, but because I find it to be very offensive. Also because, I already have a wife and have never found a male that couldn't beat me unconscious if I tried to get his pants off without his cooperation.

(Note: believe what you want, but don't try to act like Jesus, who is also god, wouldn't say rape was okay; he already has. Or don't you believe that Jesus is lord?)

Your misinformed argument ignores the idea that we have made any moral progress in 5000 years. Most anti-Christian arguments concede the fact that Deuteronomy and Judges are highly highly archaic.

The Bible never says that it's okay to rape, only that reparations must be made. At the time, a woman's entire existence and livelihood was based around marriage and childbirth. If a woman was raped, she would be unable to ever be married, and would therefore be forced into poverty and be a social pariah for her entire life. Forcing her to marry the rape victim, while absolutely terrible, is an act of mercy on her behalf. Historically, rape victims outside of the Jewish community at the time had it much worse.

Luckily we have made significant strides in women's rights since then.

 

[UberNoodle]

A person doesn't lock his car == somebody elses right to steal it?

No.

A woman dresses provocatively == somebody elses right to rape her?

Hell no!

And yet not locking the door of your Mercedes in South Central L.A would make you an idiot.

I think there is a middle ground. No, it's not the victims "fault" but they sure as hell can do a lot to provoke it.

If a man can't keep his d**k in his pants, that's his problem not the woman's, unless he then rapes her, and in that case, he's a cruel, misogynistic bastard.

Most rapes aren't done by random psychopaths who jump out of a dark alley and have sex with the stranger. They are committed by people who the victim knows. Usually there has been mutual flirting all night, lots of alcohol and then when it comes to go time someone changes their mind and the other person looses control and does it anyway.

I'm a big believer in the concept of "if you don't want to have sex with a guy, don't lead him on". As a female, I can vouch that girls do lead men on and girls do flirt with dangerous people. Is it their fault that they end up being raped? No, but they were acting like idiots and they did a lot to make it happen. Just because they were raped and rape is such a taboo subject doesn't change this.

Back in England, I had a friend who had been flirting with some idiot jock boy at a pub for about six hours. He was known to be a loose cannon and she had no real intention of having sex with him, yet she was doing everything in her power to flirt with him. They talked and flirted at the pub, then she went to his house willingly, got into the bedroom, made out with him, flirted some more, then when it got down to business she tried to make him stop. He raped her.

Now, yes, that guy is a bastard and it is his "fault". But she acted like a five year old and brought it upon herself. She showed no street smart, no common sense and no safety. It may sound cold to say this, but it's true. I'd be willing to wager that most rapes happen like this. I think the really tragic and violent rapes are somewhat of a rarity that are overblown by the media due to how horrible they are.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't bring crime upon yourself. Don't hang around sleezy areas whilst flirting with dangerous men because you are bringing it upon yourself. It's the same reason why you don't walk around the ghetto at 2am dressed in a suit with your Ipad and designer wallet on show.

You make interesting points but it doesn't matter. There's no excuse for raping somebody. Nobody is EVER 'asking for it' because of the way they dress or flirt. Sex appeal is a natural part of human expression. Flirtation is a natural part of it too. Showing skin or being flirtatious is not a 'rape pass' for the disgruntalled man who misses out. To say otherwise, as you kind of did, is to imply 'sex entitlement' for men. That's a load of crap. There's no such entitlement, and it takes a rapist, a criminal, to rape, nothing more or less.

It is incredibly stupid, as this thread has been, to say that women provoke their own rapes in this way? Not only that, it is insulting to men, as it implies that men are such slaves to their hormones and drives that their intellect cannot get in the way when the boner is raging. Regardless, rape is probably never for the love of a woman. It's entirely self-gratification with a goal to put somebody into submission and use them in perhaps the cruelest of ways.

Nobody asks for that, and no man should suggest that sometimes its deserved or unavoidable.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Wearing provocative clothing might make a woman a more appealing target, that doesn't make the perpetrator any less of a scumbag. The provocative clothing doesn't completely eliminate his ability to reason.

Pretty much this.

While on one hand, if you walk down the street at night in nothing but a bra and miniskirt while drunk and you get raped....You should REALLY understand that you put yourself at risk on your own.

On the other hand, rape is still a disgusting and terrible thing and whoever does it is a complete and utter !@#$wad, no matter the situation.

Also, I didn't read the whole topic, but if anyone thinks that men are the only sex that cane rape...That's not quite accurate. Women CAN rape men. It's usually just so much harder and more unlikely that you practically never see it.

 

[mrsultana]

For the record, the bible says if I want to rape a woman who has no husband or fiance, it is okay, so long as you pay back her father (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). Or, if you are in the tribe of Israel and god didn't provide you with a wife (Judges 21:20-23). Better yet, try to rape a man! If you try, but stop, it is okay for you to rape TWO women instead (Judges 19:24-25).

I never would rape anyone. Not because I don't have $2350 to buy 50 pieces of silver, but because I find it to be very offensive. Also because, I already have a wife and have never found a male that couldn't beat me unconscious if I tried to get his pants off without his cooperation.

(Note: believe what you want, but don't try to act like Jesus, who is also god, wouldn't say rape was okay; he already has. Or don't you believe that Jesus is lord?)

Your misinformed argument ignores the idea that we have made any moral progress in 5000 years. Most anti-Christian arguments concede the fact that Deuteronomy and Judges are highly highly archaic.

The Bible never says that it's okay to rape, only that reparations must be made. At the time, a woman's entire existence and livelihood was based around marriage and childbirth. If a woman was raped, she would be unable to ever be married, and would therefore be forced into poverty and be a social pariah for her entire life. Forcing her to marry the rape victim, while absolutely terrible, is an act of mercy on her behalf. Historically, rape victims outside of the Jewish community at the time had it much worse.

Luckily we have made significant strides in women's rights since then.

Cherry-pick all you want, but strides in the rights of women have been DESPITE the bible, not because of them. If we are to believe the new testament, nobody would ever be convicted of rape. Nobody should listen to women anyway, right? (1Timothy 2:12)
Now, if we could only get anti-anti-christians to admit the moral progress we have made over five millennia.

 

[matt87_50]

hmm, I will say this on the issue:

someone is talking about a rape, or the rise in sexual assaults ect.

then someone says "well, maybe they shouldn't dress so sexily, or shouldn't drink so much, or should try and avoid the situations"

and then this person who says that will immediately be vilified and looked upon almost with the disgust with which they look upon rapists...


I find this to be the single most unhelpful, and frankly, dangerous response in this debate...


yes... them dressing sexily, then leaving all their friends and going and hanging out with a bunch of footballers, after getting insanely drunk... does NOT give them the right to rape her! and does NOT diminish their responsibility for their actions in ANY WAY!

WE KNOW THIS! THIS HAS BEEN SAID A THOUSAND TIMES! IT IS BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS!!! CAN WE MOVE ON!!

the simple fact of the matter is that if the girls DIDN'T get blind drunk, DIDN'T put them selves in stupid situations, and DIDN'T dress like whores, THEY WOULD REDUCE THEIR CHANCES OF GETTING RAPED!!!

sure you SHOULD be able to dress how ever you like, you SHOULD be able to get blind drunk, you SHOULD be able to put your self in compromising situations... and NOT have to worry about getting raped... but the reality is... YOU PROBABLY WILL!!


but no... we never get this far... the discussion stops the minute anyone tries to mention this as the feminists tare into people who bring this up... and then... they go out and purposeless dress even more provocatively as if as some sort of protest to this very advice!!



if a man covers him self in honey, then runs around the woods, and gets attacked by a bear... then someone says "well... he probably shouldn't have done that" we don't get all up in arms saying "hey!! it should be his God given RIGHT to cover himself in honey if he wants to!!"

we deprive our kids of candy offerings from strangers, and lifts from strangers...

of course it would be nice if kids could take all the free candy they get offered, and could get all the free, helpful lifts they could... it would be nice if any adult who tried to harm a kid spontaneously combusted before they could... but thats not the world we live in...


P.S.

I say this as a man that who thoroughly enjoys women in scantily clad clothing. also, I'm not a rapist.

 

[silvertoast]

I have seen no evidence that dressing a certain way results in rape. Saying this again is just and excuse for some to victim blame. Refer to my previous comment for a little more on it.

This attitude is also part of a more prevalent problem in our society, the idea of slut shaming. Basically this idea is that a woman who dresses a certain way or has frequent sex is a slut and we as a society do not approve. This idea leads to victim blaming. This is just another one of the ways our society has tried to keep women down. A woman can't be in control of her sexuality anymore. If she is then she is labeled a slut. The 70s did not have this problem from what I can tell.

So, saying a certain way for a woman to dress will result in rape is just stupid. A woman should be allowed to dress however. People need to understand some of these issues in order for things to start changing.

 

[kurupt87]

What have psychological experts and profilers been telling us for years? Rape is about power, not about sex. That's why homosexual rape happens so much in prison even though statistically it has to be occurring with great frequency with offenders who would never even experiment out in the real world. The look of the victim has absolutely nothing to do with it. The case can be argued that looks may be a factor for perpetrators of date rape, for whom I believe an (at least perceived) inability to otherwise get laid is the prime motivator in the opinions of many, including myself. But rape by force is always, always about power. And possibly little dicks.

Uh huh. And who is more attractive to a sadist? The confident victim who knows they look good and dresses to show it or the unconfident one who dresses conservatively?

Sadist = rapist? No, usually not. Though there are some sick sociopathic sadists out there, and some are rapists, these people are usually not into the same things as the average guy. Plunging necklines and hotpants are not their thing.

"Uh huh." I like your idea that women who sex it up have more confidence than women who don't.

...

I'm not saying all sadists are rapists. I'm a bit of a sadist, more a dominant really, but I'm not a rapist.

You said rape is about power, well ok. Sadism is also about power. It's only about pain because that is something a person in a position of power inflicts upon someone in a position of no power.

A rapist who does it for the power trip is also an extreme sadist.

A woman who has "sexed it up" is not necessarily more confident than a woman who hasn't; even sexually. It is a strong visual indication though. Much like anyone else who dresses themselves, she'll put on what she thinks she looks good in. You don't dress yourself in clothes that you think you look bad in, not when 'going out' at any rate, and neither would she. Dressing in revealing clothes suggests a confidence in both body and sexuality to an onlooker without knowing anything at all about the person other than what they look like.

To an extreme sadist, more confidence means more to dominate or, in the case of rape, break about a person.

It's why people are so scared of the American prisoners who rape their fellow inmates. People just assume a man, a criminal at that, has more confidence and ability to fend off a rapist and finds the process even more horrible than a woman does/can. Yet it still happens and the rapist revels in it.

[sub]Edit: Ironically enough it was an edit you made to snip my post that caused the quotes to screw up and not one I made; nevermind though, it's fixed.[/sub]

 

[Yopaz]

I thought it was already established that rape has little to with with sex, but more about taking control and controlling your victim, I might be wrong, so I wont say this is true though. Trying to pin rape on an 11 year old girl however is disgusting.
Also I advice all of you to take a look at the comments on the sites from the original post. They're all very stupid. Very stupid...

 

[Cyberwulf]

An accusation of any crime can ruin someone's life forever. But since you're so worried, it's actually quite easy to avoid being falsely accused of rape. Here are my tips:

1. Don't have sex with someone who's been drinking or taking drugs - even if they insist they're fine. You have no way of knowing how much they'll remember.
2. Don't have sex with total strangers.
3. Don't have sex with crazy people.
4. Don't get drunk/high at someone else's house if there's even an outside chance that later you'll crawl into a woman's bed and try to have sex with her.
5. If you are being chivalrous and are putting a drunk woman to bed, don't do it alone. Have one of her girlfriends go with you. When the woman's in bed, leave the room first.
6. Don't have sex with someone who's sleeping or unconscious, even as a sexy wakeup call.
7. If a woman says no, assume she means it.
8. Don't pester a woman until she gives up and lets you do what you want.
9. Listen for an enthusiastic "yes!", not just the absence of "no".
10. If she says stop, no matter how far along you are in the process, stop.
11. If she asks you to use a condom, use a condom.
12. In short - ONCE YOU'RE IN BED WITH SOMEBODY, DON'T ACT LIKE A FUCKING PIG.

Well... since you're going to take that approach, here's my tips for avoiding rape.

1. Don't dress like a whore.
2. Don't tease people into your bed and THEN say stop.
3. Don't walk around outside alone at night.
4. Don't invite friends over to your place.
5. Don't go visit friends at their place.
6. Don't go out to clubs or other social venues.
7. Don't drink something your best friend handed you 'cause it might be drugged.
8. Don't leave the house.

There we go. Break any of those AND YOU FUCKING HAD IT COMING!

How's that?

?Did you ? did you seriously just compare "When a woman says no, assume she means no" and "If a woman says stop, then stop" to "OMG LADIES NEVER LEAVE YOUR HOUSE"?

I?m starting to understand why you?re so worked up about "false" rape accusations.

Everyone else, take a knee and study Lawyer105's response to my post. See how it's perfectly reasonable to expect women to take responsibility for and curtail their behaviour lest they be raped, but the suggestion that men avoid sex with drunk, high and unconscious people lest they ACTUALLY COMMIT RAPE is greeted with ridicule.

To all the people insisting that rape victims bear some of the blame for "being stupid", I hope you realise you?re telling all the rapists who read this (and they?re out there; we have at least one clown who thinks it?s disgraceful that there?s a law saying "Hey fellas, if she tells you to stop and you keep going, that?s rape") that it?s acceptable to rape people as long as they are dressed a certain way or engaged in certain kinds of behaviour. "She deserves blame for being stupid" is semantic bullshit and you all know it.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Wait... she's been raped before? How many times has this girl been the center of a rape charge, and what is she doing if she's eleven and is getting consistently raped? Somethings off.

Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks. You can move out as soon as you've found yourself $500,000. Get scrimping.

Thats still no reason to get raped multiple times at the age of eleven.I didnt come from a well off place either, but we never had someone get raped once without the cops involvement and to my knowledge no one was ever raped twice. There's something wrong with this girl if she's getting continual gang raped.

 

[Cyberwulf]

the simple fact of the matter is that if the girls DIDN'T get blind drunk, DIDN'T put them selves in stupid situations, and DIDN'T dress like whores, THEY WOULD REDUCE THEIR CHANCES OF GETTING RAPED!!!

Maybe fuckhead men should STOP RAPING DRUNK WOMEN AND THEN INVITING THEIR BUDDIES TO JOIN IN.

Funny how you don't mention them at all but decide to blame "feminists" for vilifying clowns like you whose "rape prevention advice" boils down to scolding women for their behaviour while letting men off the hook. Or equating them to predatory animals who operate purely on instinct. What a fine view you have of your own gender.

 

[Cyberwulf]

Wait... she's been raped before? How many times has this girl been the center of a rape charge, and what is she doing if she's eleven and is getting consistently raped? Somethings off.

Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks. You can move out as soon as you've found yourself $500,000. Get scrimping.

Thats still no reason to get raped multiple times at the age of eleven.I didnt come from a well off place either, but we never had someone get raped once without the cops involvement and to my knowledge no one was ever raped twice. There's something wrong with this girl if she's getting continual gang raped.

Yeah. Maybe she's vulnerable because her parents aren't around. Maybe she was abused at a younger age and acts out sexually now because of the fucking trauma. Ever think of that before you decided to call an eleven year old a slut and an attention whore?

 

[funguy2121]

I'm not saying all sadists are rapists. I'm a bit of a sadist, more a dominant really, but I'm not a rapist.

You said rape is about power, well ok. Sadism is also about power. It's only about pain because that is something a person in a position of power inflicts upon someone in a position of no power.

A rapist who does it for the power trip is also an extreme sadist.

A woman who has "sexed it up" is not necessarily more confident than a woman who hasn't; even sexually. It is a strong visual indication though. Much like anyone else who dresses themselves, she'll put on what she thinks she looks good in. You don't dress yourself in clothes that you think you look bad in, not when 'going out' at any rate, and neither would she. Dressing in revealing clothes suggests a confidence in both body and sexuality to an onlooker without knowing anything at all about the person other than what they look like.

To an extreme sadist, more confidence means more to dominate or, in the case of rape, break about a person.

It's why people are so scared of the American prisoners who rape their fellow inmates. People just assume a man, a criminal at that, has more confidence and ability to fend off a rapist and finds the process even more horrible than a woman does/can. Yet it still happens and the rapist revels in it.

A lot of your ideas here should include the caveat "on paper," for they lack real world application.

The way you use sadist, especially to describe yourself, leans heavily toward role play in a consensual setting. A freaky fun person does not = a sadist outside of this context, that is a person who enjoys hurting other people. True sadism is indicative of a mental illness, the same sort that rapists have. As for freaky funtime sadism, no, it is not about power. Power is a means. That's why it's called role playing. Freaky funtime sadism is about the same thing as every other fetish in the world - it's about getting off, else it wouldn't be a sexual fetish. There are men who like to go in drag, but not for sexuality's sake and never merging the two worlds. Here, drag is not a fetish. But for people who like to do gender-bending in bed, regardless of whatever archetypal nerve that's hitting for them, the purpose is to get off and nothing more. You wouldn't argue that every woman who calls her lover "daddy" during sex actually has an Electra complex or incest tendencies, would you?

Some women wear scant clothes because they want to feel sexy and aren't afraid of their bodies, but sexy clothing almost never speaks to self confidence, and far more often speaks to its opposite. When was the last time you met a smart, self-aware girl who was well grounded and ambitious who had wording on the ass of her booty shorts? The two aren't mutually exclusive, but it's rare enough to be considered, in fairness, anomalous. You are unlikely to meet the woman of your dreams dressed in hot pants and a tube top that reads "tramp" across the boobridge. You may want to fuck her, and she may turn out to be both an interesting person and an interesting lay, but odds are if you're into a woman of any mental capacity you aren't going to find her dressed like an extra from a Britney Spears video.

And the fact remains: beyond the occasional serial killer who specifically targets hookers, most rapists, in fact most misogynistic criminals, do not target women based upon how they dress or how they look. Sexiness and self confidence are not factors.

Edit: And please stop quoting wrong so that it looks like we said each others' words. The text you quoted is all fucked up.

 

[Trolldor]

Rape is about power.

Rapists don't become that way because somebody dresses seductively, they are that way because it's how their brain functions.

The victim is simply not to blame, and any opinion to the contrary is wilful ignorance.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Wait... she's been raped before? How many times has this girl been the center of a rape charge, and what is she doing if she's eleven and is getting consistently raped? Somethings off.

Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks. You can move out as soon as you've found yourself $500,000. Get scrimping.

Thats still no reason to get raped multiple times at the age of eleven.I didnt come from a well off place either, but we never had someone get raped once without the cops involvement and to my knowledge no one was ever raped twice. There's something wrong with this girl if she's getting continual gang raped.

Yeah. Maybe she's vulnerable because her parents aren't around. Maybe she was abused at a younger age and acts out sexually now because of the fucking trauma. Ever think of that before you decided to call an eleven year old a slut and an attention whore?

I never called her a slut nor did I call her an attention whore, I simply said that there is something wrong with the picture if its an eleven year old who is repeated gang raped and nothing is done to keep her from being so. Next time calmly and rationally read my statement before you go off.

 

[Cyberwulf]

Wait... she's been raped before? How many times has this girl been the center of a rape charge, and what is she doing if she's eleven and is getting consistently raped? Somethings off.

Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks. You can move out as soon as you've found yourself $500,000. Get scrimping.

Thats still no reason to get raped multiple times at the age of eleven.I didnt come from a well off place either, but we never had someone get raped once without the cops involvement and to my knowledge no one was ever raped twice. There's something wrong with this girl if she's getting continual gang raped.

Yeah. Maybe she's vulnerable because her parents aren't around. Maybe she was abused at a younger age and acts out sexually now because of the fucking trauma. Ever think of that before you decided to call an eleven year old a slut and an attention whore?

I never called her a slut nor did I call her an attention whore, I simply said that there is something wrong with the picture if its an eleven year old who is repeated gang raped and nothing is done to keep her from being so. Next time calmly and rationally read my statement before you go off.

That's not what you said. You said there was something wrong with HER.

 

[Grospoliner]

On one hand, the responsibility of the crime lies squarely on the perpetrator of that crime.

On the other hand, a person engaging in activity in such a manner that opens themselves up to an attack is in fact inviting that opportunity, whether they mean to or not. A single moment of laxity is all it takes. I would say that a person should do everything within their power to protect themselves, including enlisting the aid of others to help protect them. Control of your personal security is up to you and you alone.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Wait... she's been raped before? How many times has this girl been the center of a rape charge, and what is she doing if she's eleven and is getting consistently raped? Somethings off.

Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks. You can move out as soon as you've found yourself $500,000. Get scrimping.

Thats still no reason to get raped multiple times at the age of eleven.I didnt come from a well off place either, but we never had someone get raped once without the cops involvement and to my knowledge no one was ever raped twice. There's something wrong with this girl if she's getting continual gang raped.

Yeah. Maybe she's vulnerable because her parents aren't around. Maybe she was abused at a younger age and acts out sexually now because of the fucking trauma. Ever think of that before you decided to call an eleven year old a slut and an attention whore?

I never called her a slut nor did I call her an attention whore, I simply said that there is something wrong with the picture if its an eleven year old who is repeated gang raped and nothing is done to keep her from being so. Next time calmly and rationally read my statement before you go off.

That's not what you said. You said there was something wrong with HER.

Yeah, something is wrong with her. Could be a living situation, could be she's a closeted nympho who traps men into rape (it happens), could be she has no sense of self preservation. Somethings wrong with this girl and her life that she may/may not be directly able to help if she's eleven, been gang raped multiple times, has multiple police reports, and nothing is being done about it.

At the very least she should be taken from her house and put in a new one, because those parents are failing to provide a safe livings. I can understand if it happens once, you cant helicopter parent all the time. But if its been multiple times, then there's no excuse.

There's obviously something wrong with these men that are doing it, because there's no state in the US that legally allows an eleven year old to consent ot sex. The lowest I know (legally) that you can do it anywhere in the Nothern Hemisphere is Mexico at 13, and I bleieve the lowest in the US is 15 (though I dont know for sure). And even if there was, this is still pedophilia at its basic.

But even if the victim is never to blame (which isnt always true, depending upon the crime, and I would say in some cases a girl deserves to be raped, as in the example in my first post here), you lose pity (at least from me) when you put yourself in a dangerous situation. I'm not say she is purposely, but with several charges centering around her, there is something wrong and should be looked into further then this rape.

 

[somonels]

Wrong. No one willingly make themselves a rape victim. The cop's statement is also wrong, because women who dress conservatively still get raped.

The do, and I said she made herself a more appealing target. Go wear red pants in a battlefield to get my point.

Pathetic. Anyone with any pride as man wouldn't give into peer pressure. Hey, here's some peer pressure for you: Don't rape people.

Agressively outspoken, too bad reality works differently. Re-read, as you appear to have missed entire points over multiple posts.

You seem to have too much of an emotional investment in this for 'just a commentator.'