Blaming the victim

[kurupt87]

Snip

Firstly, it's clear you've had to deal with some shit. Or that someone you love has. Or that you struggle with the temptation to rape people. Sorry, for what it's worth. Remember that this aint personal fella.

Why should I not have sex with someone who has drank alcohol or taken drugs?

Because you have no goddamn clue what state of mind that person is in. You have no idea how much they'll remember or whether they're in a fit state to consent to anything.

Now you can insist till you're blue in the face that they got drunk/took drugs and it's their look-out. But try to think how you'd feel if you'd spent the evening relaxing with your buds, over-indulged a bit and blacked out. Then you woke up in the same bed as a male acquaintance, with a hangover and a sore arse. How the hell would you feel? How would you feel about your buddy, who decided his orgasm was more important than not freaking you out, not using you, not raping you? Is your orgasm so important that you'd do that to another person? Your dick won't fall off if you wait a couple of days till the person is sober.

Realise I just took your first two points, they're not even your worst ones.

There's a law in Canada that goes something like your first rule. Horrifies me it does, just glad to see that Canadians ignore the fuck out of it.

I'm hesitant to suggest that your example is anecdotal but ok. Your suggesting that sleeping with someone who's drunk is equivalent to being anally raped by a male friend. As horrible as that situation is it is also absurb to suggest it is the norm.

Thinking it through, I would still be a virgin if I was not allowed to have sex whilst under the influence, or with someone who was, of alcohol. I've had sex whilst sober with a sober person of course, it's just that the first tends to be with a little liquid, social lubrication.

Even accepting your example as you describe it, it's bad. I'm an unashamedly straight man, to anyone that speaks to me where the subject of sex comes up I would assume it's pretty clear that I bat for the team that gets the girls. I'd have to be comatose, drugged or maliciously raped to be the taker when having sex with a man.

A better example would be waking up next to a bloke I'd shagged, rather than one who'd shagged me. There's at least some room for manoeuvre there. I have woken up next to a woman I most definitely wouldn't have shagged if I'd been in possession of my wits though. Similar situation. And I laughed, called her a manipulative ***** and left.

Your argument is that because one in however many hundreds or thousands of drunken couplings result in rape, you shouldn't have sex whilst drunk. Yeah ok that's fine if you want to avoid getting raped; but I assume you also don't want to be horribly mangled, right? If that's the case, why do you travel by car? Statistically that is one of the most dangerous thing you'll ever do and you'll do it nearly every week.

Oh actually, you're list is about avoiding raping people. Makes it even more absurd. Oh fuck it, I can't be bothered.

10 and 11 are your only points that are always true. 6, 13 and 7 are also mostly true, but not always. Not rules to ignore unless you know she likes otherwise.

Your list makes the assumption that men want to rape women. For the vast majority that isn't true.

Oh by the way, liking it when people obey you doesn't make you a sadist. Putting a plastic bag over your son's face because you get excited watching him change colour while he suffocates makes you a sadist.

As for your sadist point, I said I'm not really a sadist but more of a dominant. I enjoy spanking, slapping, choking and pinching but only lightly. It's more about the shock of me doing it than the pain it causes, for me at least. I'm more of a sadist in terms of embarassment, I enjoy that more. Even then I'm not huge on it. I've been asked to do things I was uncomfortable with. Did them, she wanted me too afterall, but I didn't enjoy it because I lost the illusion of power; I didn't want to do it, she did.

But, to qualify for the sadist title you have to enjoy causing pain. I do, to a point. Yeah, I'm a lily livered sadist the colour of washed out dirt but I still qualify.

 

[kurupt87]

Wow. You said it, that was thorough. Sorry if you felt I was putting you under the lens.

Don't worry about it, I enjoy these extended discussions. A good way to find out about yourself, have other people pose you questions/problems. I am though now a bit tired and a bit drunk, apologies if any of my points don't string together nicely.

Woah there, don't go putting words into my mouth. I sprinkled that point with perhaps's and rightly or wrongly's for a reason.

People are quite capable of being self confident and happy with who they are without meeting whatever arbitrary intelligence level you deem they require to be self respecting. They're right to do so.

What I mean is that you or I might have problems with aspects of individual characters but suggesting that they should not respect themsleves means that you believe they should be embarassed or regretful about the person who they are, purely because they don't meet a standard you've set. That is wrong and leads to a fascist's class view of people.

Judging people is fine, as is not respecting individuals, but don't suggest denying them self respect.

I sincerely doubt you meant that but slippery slopes are dangerous places to tread.

I didn't. I meant that you probably wouldn't reasonably expect to find a woman who meets your be-with-ability requirements dressed like a stripper. There are some overtly sexual people out there of both genders who have a sense of themselves. And there are some very intelligent people who meet every possible definition of slut: very prone to cheating or very sexually active in general or hypersexual for reasons involving money, attention or daddy issues. I read a study which showed that people who meet any of the above definitions come primarily from both ends of the intellectual bell curve. I'll source it if I can find it. I think we're both probably guilty of analyzing each other too much here. Either way, there are plenty of women who dress "to impress," be it in a very sexualized way or in a more elegant way, to project their self confidence, and there are a whole slew of women who dress like sluts because they have low self esteem.

Depends on what you mean by be-with-ability. To shag, I'm pretty damn certain I will. To date, less so.

Otherwise, yerp. It'd be nifty if you do find that study, I like sauce.

Heh, of course. And some murderers go on to help thousands. Exceptions are not the rule, they're the exception.

One point I'll suggest, the likelihood of happiness and confidence depends on the person's social background and experiences. Typically, upper class members are happier and more confident than the rest of us.

I haven't found that the most intelligent people I've met have been the least confident or that the least intelligent people I've met have been the most. Sure, I've met plenty of dipshits who wouldn't shut the Hell up and told outlandish stories of their sexual escapades ad nauseum, but in general I've found the two to have little relation to each other.

If I suggested that I meant the extremes then I've erred. No, I simply meant more inclined towards one or t'other.

I'm almost suggesting confidence is provocative, and I guess it is. It's just that dressing and showing skin is so obvious.

As for dressing like a skank or however you put it, lol. It's enjoyable, so I'm told. To have heads turn after you, knowing it's lust, is a powerful feeling.

I agree. Quiet and shy can be a turn-on, but normally I like a woman with a mouth, a strong set of convictions, and a thorough knowledge of who she is.

Ouch, I worded that really badly. What I meant was that confidence, in the case of a rapist marking their target, is provocative. And that the confidently flesh exposing outfits are the most obvious.

Confidence is an attractive trait.

Generally I prefer cute to sexy though, in a relationship. More likely to be friends with a sexy woman rather than lovers; one nighters are good here though.

I'm not really sure. I meant more that I don't find what I look like to be an important part of my character, attractive or not, and that looks are subjective anyway.

I really genuinly am not that bothered by how attractive people think I am. Maybe I'm suffering from confidence bringing contempt, I'm not sure.

I must say, I am envious. Some people just really don't care, and others care less than I do.

I suppose. I guess it's a worry I do without. It's just, looks are subjective. Like art. Why bother worrying?
Edit: It's also got fuck all to do with who you are, just saying.

Oh sure, self preservation is a powerful motivator. Power trip vs safety. A fighter is more likely to get DNA under fingertips or to cut the attacker and spill blood, giving an easy trail. Up to the rapist where the balance is made. Probably why child abuse and molestation is so comparatively common.

For your last point, does that suggest that dressing like your skank is the safer choice? And that dressing conservatively is more dangerous? I doubt it, rapes like those strike me as crimes of opportunity rather than planned, the victim is irrelevant. Whereas in the cases of a dressed to impress woman being raped it was that that marked her.

No, I'm saying that the only "safe bet" is for a woman to know her surroundings and not put herself in certain situations (and to know the best way to get out of them; for instance, going to location B almost always means the vic will be murdered, so that's a good time to fight like your life depends on it). It could be argued that provacative dress around the wrong individuals might spur them on, but I wouldn't encourage any young woman to live her life as if rape may be right around the corner - that wouldn't be very fun, now would it?

Indeed not. I'm not suggesting doing so either.

Best way to manage going out and getting your drink/drug on is to have at least one friend who does so to a lesser degree than the rest of you (edit: or drives! also known as wonderfriend). Oh, also that you always go out with at least one or two friends. That friend will be able to make a decision on how trolleyed you are through experience of you getting trolleyed, and then suggesting whether or not going off with that person is a good idea or not. Sure, the cheeky fucker may get fed up with you and let you learn your lesson through experience, the bugger, but that too is good.

 

[DoubleTime]

Worse is blaming a 11 year old of "Asking for it"

This case is more a racial issue. It's a black on white crime, and almost everyone sided with the kid is white, the siding of the rapists are black.

Sad but true, some odd idea that the victim is white, it's ok, and the poor innocent gang rapists are all good church going choir boys and the white man just demands a lynchin, to get away from the responsibilities of their crimes.

Yet the fact they cell phone taped the entire crime and pretty much recorded themselves doing the unforgivable act of raping a child....

It all comes down to being innocent based on skin color of the criminal and victim.

I find it disturbing we seem to give MORE protection to criminals, more legal aid, more benefit of the doubt to the criminals. I don't like the idea of innocents sent to jail, but if you filmed it, posted it on your face book, dna is found all over, and 13 other people saw you do it...

It's not alleged...you did it.

She's actually Hispanic, not white.

http://cofcc.org/2011/03/race-of-11-year-old-gang-rape-victim-revealed/

 

[Carlston]

Worse is blaming a 11 year old of "Asking for it"

This case is more a racial issue. It's a black on white crime, and almost everyone sided with the kid is white, the siding of the rapists are black.

Sad but true, some odd idea that the victim is white, it's ok, and the poor innocent gang rapists are all good church going choir boys and the white man just demands a lynchin, to get away from the responsibilities of their crimes.

Yet the fact they cell phone taped the entire crime and pretty much recorded themselves doing the unforgivable act of raping a child....

It all comes down to being innocent based on skin color of the criminal and victim.

I find it disturbing we seem to give MORE protection to criminals, more legal aid, more benefit of the doubt to the criminals. I don't like the idea of innocents sent to jail, but if you filmed it, posted it on your face book, dna is found all over, and 13 other people saw you do it...

It's not alleged...you did it.

She's actually Hispanic, not white.

http://cofcc.org/2011/03/race-of-11-year-old-gang-rape-victim-revealed/

Hmm warps the racial divide a tad. That or I'm thinking of the "other" little girl gang rape...

God is that what we come to when there are multiple instances to a point you can't recall which horrible event your trying to remember?

 

[matt87_50]

the simple fact of the matter is that if the girls DIDN'T get blind drunk, DIDN'T put them selves in stupid situations, and DIDN'T dress like whores, THEY WOULD REDUCE THEIR CHANCES OF GETTING RAPED!!!

Maybe fuckhead men should STOP RAPING DRUNK WOMEN AND THEN INVITING THEIR BUDDIES TO JOIN IN.

Funny how you don't mention them at all but decide to blame "feminists" for vilifying clowns like you whose "rape prevention advice" boils down to scolding women for their behaviour while letting men off the hook. Or equating them to predatory animals who operate purely on instinct. What a fine view you have of your own gender.

thank you, you are the exact moron I am talking about...

maybe there should be no rapists, no murderers, no world hunger, or disease, wouldn't it be great if we lived in a perfect world...

BUT WE DON'T!!

the FACT is that if you do those things, you INCREASE YOUR CHANCES OF GETTING RAPED!!

it SHOULDN'T... BUT IT DOES!!!

if you had read all of my post... you would have SEEN that I said that men are in no way let off the hook for their actions!! and you would have seen me state that this is BLINDINGLY FUCKING OBVIOUS and doesn't need every feminist to /thread the debate by blurting out this OBVIOUS FACT!!!

YES! THAT IS PRETTY MUCH THE VIEW I HAVE OF SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF MY GENDER!! they should still be deterred at all costs, and be held fully responsible, in every possible way! but none of this will stop RAPE FROM OCCURRING!!!

IT IS THE PLAIN AND SIMPLE TRUTH that you increase your chances of getting raped if you act like that! and people constantly spouting "IT SHOULDN'T" WILL NOT STOP THIS FROM BEING TRUE!!

it isn't a productive statement, it doesn't add anything to the debate that leads to less women getting raped! all it does, if anything, is encourage women to "stand up in defiance" and act this way IN SPITE of the possible consequences!! which is why I say it is actually dangerous!


so by all means, go dress like a whore, get blind drunk, burst into a room full of footballers, get rapped, report it to the police, see that justice is served, they get the maximum penalty, get sent to jail for years, and they in turn get raped in the shower room - entirely what they deserve! which is great!! except... you still would have been raped...

personally I think they should get harsher treatment. and tougher penalties should be a focus, but even this will not stop rape... ultimately these preventative measures I mention are, and always will be a critical part too...

child abduction and crimes against children are usually the harshest punished crimes there are... but this still doesn't stop it from happening... which is why we teach our children preventative measures...


children aren't taught that it is "liberating" to take candy from a stranger...

 

[cobra_ky]

it isn't a productive statement, it doesn't add anything to the debate that leads to less women getting raped! all it does, if anything, is encourage women to "stand up in defiance" and act this way IN SPITE of the possible consequences!! which is why I say it is actually dangerous!

let's talk about what is and isn't a productive statement for a second here.

"These are precautions you can take to reduce your chances of being raped" is a productive statement. it conveys practical knowledge toward a desirable end.

"If you hadn't dressed like a whore, maybe he wouldn't have raped you" is completely unproductive. it's not going to help her retroactively not be raped any more. it's utterly useless as advice, too, because "like a whore" is a completely subjective term. it's not even remotely provable either, since women are raped all the time regardless of what they're wearing, whether they've been drinking or not. All this statement accomplishes is placing blame on the victim for something that is categorically not her fault.

children aren't taught that it is "liberating" to take candy from a stranger...

that's because it isn't liberating. being able to dress how you like in public without fear of being attacked over it is.

 

[AgentNein]

bullshit bullshit snip snip

1) Define "dressing like a whore" for me. There are people in this world that would define "dressing like a whore" as showing one's face or knees.

2) present me with some sources to your statistics that show you how a woman does and does not dress effects her likelihood to be raped. I'm curious. Or is this your assumption?

 

[matt87_50]

bullshit bullshit snip snip

1) Define "dressing like a whore" for me. There are people in this world that would define "dressing like a whore" as showing one's face or knees.

2) present me with some sources to your statistics that show you how a woman does and does not dress effects her likelihood to be raped. I'm curious. Or is this your assumption?

my point is, if it was up to people like the ones I was talking about, such statistics would never exist, no one would ever investigate the idea... and I think thats a big shame...

look, all I was trying to say is,

when people say "look, maybe there is something the girls could be doing here to prevent getting into these situations"

I am SICK AND TIRED (because it happens EVERY time) of them being completely drowned out by people attacking them and their idea, saying "your just trying to blame the victim!! they *should* be able to do what ever they want!"

this is an obvious, hence pointless statement... and detracts to the point of completely neutralizing the VERY GOOD, AND PRODUCTIVE QUESTION THAT IS ASKED!!

which is why I hate it.

I would like to end my comment with that... so that this very valid message isn't skewed by selectively quoting only the emotive things I say... so I would like to end it here.

P.S. but... I can't help my self:

anyone who needs statistics to link "dresses like a whore" to "increases chances of people wanting to have sex with them"

is a moron...

if it didn't, WHY WOULD WHORES DRESS LIKE THAT!!!??!?!?!?!

but I digress, this was just a hypothetical yet emotive example... so as to get my point across.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.

The analogy generally goes:
You are thinking about what you want for dinner.
You settle on salmon.
You go buy a fresh salmon from the local mark-SUDDENLY KODIAK.

"covering yourself in bacon" implies actively and knowingly provoke somebody and I don't file "being attractive" in that category.

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Also if you didnt want to have sex with a guy why get naked and be in a bed with him?

Oh, gee, maybe to cuddle up and kiss and stroke and caress and touch and rub and nibble and kiss and lick and cuddle and snuggle and hug and indulge in mutual masturbation and maybe oral sex or even going 69?

Maybe?

Some of that?

Sometimes?

Did I miss a memo? Have we changed the rules so that two 17-yr-olds holding hands is totally innocent but two 17-yr-olds kissing means they're both consenting to everything on the whole 400-point purity test (and therefore both child molestors) or something? Do people no longer take things slowly with a new partner, especially virgins with a first or second partner?

...

Then there's the real out-of-the-blue answer: to defrost them. If you've got nothing else available, wrapping the hypothermia victim and yourself in a nice warm sleeping bag or quilt or whatever on a nice warm mat or mattress with no clothing between you to restrict heat transfer is a pretty good way of saving someone's life. It's a perfectly valid reason for a 30-yr-old man to drag an unconscious 15-yr-old girl into his sleeping bag with no chaperone and a perfectly good reason for a 30-yr-old woman to drag a semi-conscious 25-yr-old man into her bed with no chaperone or whatever variation you want, and it doesn't imply sexual desire or consent and neither of them owes the other sex afterwards.

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

 

[cobra_ky]

anyone who needs statistics to link "dresses like a whore" to "increases chances of people wanting to have sex with them"

is a moron...

if it didn't, WHY WOULD WHORES DRESS LIKE THAT!!!??!?!?!?!

1. you still haven't defined "dressing like a whore".

2. there is a huge, huge difference between "people wanting to have sex with you" and "people raping you".

3. you're committing a logical fallacy. the fact that some women dressed in a certain way want to have sex does not imply that all women dressed that way want to have sex.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

 

[Harbinger_]

So there's been a fair amount of talk in the news lately about the issue of blaming the victim, especially in regards to rape cases. Some of this is due to the case of the 11 year old from Texas: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20042118-504083.html

Another thing that stoked the fires was the recent comment of a cop in Toronto saying "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order to not be victimized."

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/04/slutwalk_toronto_takes_its_message_to_the_street_/
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-slut-walk-hits-dallas-streets-story,0,2823196.story

Personally I think that there is no reason EVER that someone should be sexually assaulted or raped. Because you find their clothing arousing or provocative, or they are very flirty due to over intoxication is not an excuse to ignore their rights as a human being, and this goes for both genders and every sexuality. Everyone should be able to dress how they feel comfortable without fear of personal harm.

So fellow Escapists, what are your thoughts on this whole issue? Do you think that there is too much victim blaming going on or that it really is the fault of women for wearing short-shorts or miniskirts?

EDIT:
I'm noticing a lot of blame being placed on men as rapists and women as false accusers and I would like to point out things go both ways. Yes those statistics are higher but it doesn't change the fact some men falsely accuse women and some women rape men. The point should be less about one gender in the grand scheme and more about are we coddling the attackers -who perpetrated physical and psychological torture- or is anyone in what constitutes provocative clothing at fault (e.g. a man in a nut-slinger speedo is asking for rape just as much as a woman in short-shorts)?

Unless the victim was literally begging the perp then I can't see how it would be the victims fault. It can go both ways alot of the time for who's being raped by whom and as far as I'm concerned provocative clothing is not a fault. Rapists or any sort of sexual offender does not care what you are wearing its often what fits their taste and whats an easy target.

 

[II2]

So, kinda off topic, but on the OP's Toronto article, there was a womens "Slut" protest march:

Anyone else get the sense that this dude with the

SL
UT

Is trying really hard to conceal one of these?

Poor taste, poor taste, but just trying to lighten the mood a bit.


---

On topic, of course it's wrong the blame the the victim, nobody "deserves" being victimized and the history of attacking the victims character in defense of the perp in the courthouse is vile and disgusting.

- However -

It IS important to educate people to avoid doing dangerous things and being aware of their surroundings. While, ideally, we should be SAFE in a FREE society to dress and act how we wish without fear of being attacked or worse; that isn't the reality in which we live. This unfortunate, but persistent, truth increases the value of caution, awareness and identifying potential dangers. Realistically, a modicum of prudence and caution will help keep both men and women safe from dangers we can agree SHOULDN'T exist, but DO.

EDT: For what it's worth, I'm aware most sexual predators would put more weight on factors like Is she alone? Is she intoxicated? Where's she headed? Any alleyways nearby / can I get her into my car? probably determine a rape attempt more than "What is she wearing?" but, still - be aware and keep friends around if you're going out dressed for attention, etc etc.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Spoiler

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

What one person considers a comfortable summer outfit or a pretty dress is inevitably distastefully revealing and slutty to someone else. Not long ago I read an argument by a guy that women wearing tank tops in public have no self respect, and to wear anything more reavling than hijab-level of modesty is practically inviting rape. We all draw the line of tasteful dress somewhere different, so it's not as clear cut as you might think.

Though, I suppose we could all go out on dates wearing grandma sweaters, so we don't give anyone the wrong ideas.

 

[cobra_ky]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

1. What's the difference?

2. This thread is about all rape victims.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

Humans alone have the capability to override their natural instincts through conscious action. There is a large portion of humanity consisting of people who have no desire to ever reproduce.

You're thinking in extremes.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

1. What's the difference?

2. This thread is about all rape victims.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

Humans alone have the capability to override their natural instincts through conscious action. There is a large portion of humanity consisting of people who have no desire to ever reproduce.

You're thinking in extremes.

But that's the point.
Rapists are the poeple who don't overide their natural instincts. that's (usually) why they rape people, i'm not saying everyone is going to rape someone they think is sexy. Normal people do control their insincts.

Yeah there are people who conciously don't want to actually reproduce, but sex is still on the baseline of human needs along with eating and drinking etc.
Not saying we're all sex mad freaks, and ofcourse there are always exeptions to the equation.
But physically, not mentally, most of us do.

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

1. What's the difference?

Thanks for making me feel I'm not the only one here.

2. This thread is about all rape victims.

So there's been a fair amount of talk in the news lately about the issue of blaming the victim, especially in regards to rape cases. ... So fellow Escapists, what are your thoughts on this whole issue? Do you think that there is too much victim blaming going on or that it really is the fault of women for wearing short-shorts or miniskirts?

Yep, seemed that way to me.

Look, gamer with less than 10^-7 molarity of H+ ions, what makes someone sexually attractive to one person isn't necessarily the same as what makes him or her attractive to another, it can't be predicted and it can't be controlled to the extent you seem to be advocating trying to control it.

That means it's not the same as dressing like a whore, okay?

For example, here's a picture of Catherine Zeta Jones [http://www.posters.ws/images/274879/catherine_zeta_jones.jpg] not looking like a whore in my opinion. Many people would consider her, dressed like that, sexually attractive. Some people may think she does look whorish dressed like that. Some people would probably argue that any woman who went out in public dressed like that was begging to be fucked by strangers. The same goes for this image of Charlotte Church [http://www.charlottechurchfan.com/photo%20gallery/charlotte_church02.jpg], this image of Kim Wilde [http://www.80sempire.com/darkneon/images/pix/kimwilde/kimwilde.jpg], this other image of Kim Wilde [http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/300314/Kim+Wilde.jpg] and even this image of Sheena Easton [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RtMJ-VAHcnQ/TOCh0DwvGwI/AAAAAAAABQg/78wbK0AOIZQ/s1600/sheena_easton.jpg], even though you can't really see what she's wearing in that image. Not doing anything for you? Try Blake Lively [http://bp1.blogger.com/_NekYStKzkXk/R4PKKJzMKgI/AAAAAAAAABQ/b54outtoCU4/s320/blakelively+tuxedo.jpg] or whoever this is [http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/10/article-1025004-018D48E400000578-243_468x546.jpg] or this guy here [http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-2/shirtless-guy-on-beach.jpg], whose facial hair some would take as an invitation.

People wear sexy underwear to feel pretty with no intention of showing it to anyone. Seriously. Women are STRANGE that way. There are professional glamour shoot albums lurking in drawers and wardrobes, seen only by the person in them and used purely for the purpose of going "yup, that's me and I'm gorgeous" occasionally. It's not an open invitation to anyone who happens to be passing by to break in, peruse the album, ambush her and have his way with her. It's just liking to feel pretty.

Just before you reply to that, ask yourself whether you've ever sucked in your stomach in front of a mirror.

 

[DoubleTime]

Also: OP, could you please tell me an instance of a man falsely accusing a woman of rape? I know you've already stated that "the statistics are higher the other way", but I don't ever recall reading a single story like that.

I haven't heard of it either, but I think that's mostly due to societal issues.

The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults on men go unreported, and even less go to court. Many men wrongly feel ashamed of admitting to abuse, even if its violent, and as such, I think even less men would be willing to take a woman to court- that background would make it hard for someone to make a false claim.
I have heard of men making false claims of spousal abuse though, as real cases become more common, so perhaps one day, we will hear about it.

False rape claims are abhorrent, and undermine genuine victims.

I can't find numbers, mostly because Google keeps "correcting" my searches, but its pretty much what Wutaiflea said (awesome name, BTW). Very few male victim rapes are reported, due to social norms and stigmas, which I feel is really the major issue at play in sexual assault of all kinds, especially rape and false rape cases. My point was more men can also be victims and perpetrators on both sides of the equation, and that it makes no sense to think that it can't (and most likely hasn't) gone both ways.

On that subject...

The drawing of lines about who is/isn't "always" at fault for one kind of injustice just perpetuates it, when in reality we should be teaching social skills and self-esteem rather than alcohol and drugs at parties is how sex "should" or "just does" occur. Plus how everyone, not just women, should know being really drunk or high increases the likelihood of any crime (rape, mugging, racial violence, gender violence) happening due to lowered inhibitions (the reason most people drink or whatever in those situations) and lowered ability to control your body (reflexes, cognition, what most people have been referring to as "common sense," etc.).

The attitudes about both sexes just need to change. Women dressed "like they want it" doesn't mean they do. The idea someone finds you sexy or appealing as a sex partner is often enough, and "being led on" or "cock-teased" doesn't give a man the right to even tell her off for feeling led on by her wardrobe, let alone molest or rape her. And men aren't just animals that can't control themselves. This idea their penises are some separate entity is ridiculous and not all men are going to cheat or be unable to control their dicks. Telling them they didn't know better is just giving them a pass because no one wants to hold them responsible. Gender equality means equal responsibility, not "it's his/her fault!"

Yes, there will be men who drop roofies or wait til the girl is too drunk to tell him from the door and women who cry rape because they don't want the social repercussions of their actions, but both of them are breaking the law! Plus, there will always be assholes, regardless or gender/sex/race/religion/political affiliation, and they're just that - assholes. Just pick up and walk away from them, no sense dealing with them, you just get stressed and they enjoy it.