Blaming the victim

[AgentNein]

bullshit bullshit snip snip

1) Define "dressing like a whore" for me. There are people in this world that would define "dressing like a whore" as showing one's face or knees.

2) present me with some sources to your statistics that show you how a woman does and does not dress effects her likelihood to be raped. I'm curious. Or is this your assumption?

 

[matt87_50]

bullshit bullshit snip snip

1) Define "dressing like a whore" for me. There are people in this world that would define "dressing like a whore" as showing one's face or knees.

2) present me with some sources to your statistics that show you how a woman does and does not dress effects her likelihood to be raped. I'm curious. Or is this your assumption?

my point is, if it was up to people like the ones I was talking about, such statistics would never exist, no one would ever investigate the idea... and I think thats a big shame...

look, all I was trying to say is,

when people say "look, maybe there is something the girls could be doing here to prevent getting into these situations"

I am SICK AND TIRED (because it happens EVERY time) of them being completely drowned out by people attacking them and their idea, saying "your just trying to blame the victim!! they *should* be able to do what ever they want!"

this is an obvious, hence pointless statement... and detracts to the point of completely neutralizing the VERY GOOD, AND PRODUCTIVE QUESTION THAT IS ASKED!!

which is why I hate it.

I would like to end my comment with that... so that this very valid message isn't skewed by selectively quoting only the emotive things I say... so I would like to end it here.

P.S. but... I can't help my self:

anyone who needs statistics to link "dresses like a whore" to "increases chances of people wanting to have sex with them"

is a moron...

if it didn't, WHY WOULD WHORES DRESS LIKE THAT!!!??!?!?!?!

but I digress, this was just a hypothetical yet emotive example... so as to get my point across.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.

The analogy generally goes:
You are thinking about what you want for dinner.
You settle on salmon.
You go buy a fresh salmon from the local mark-SUDDENLY KODIAK.

"covering yourself in bacon" implies actively and knowingly provoke somebody and I don't file "being attractive" in that category.

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Also if you didnt want to have sex with a guy why get naked and be in a bed with him?

Oh, gee, maybe to cuddle up and kiss and stroke and caress and touch and rub and nibble and kiss and lick and cuddle and snuggle and hug and indulge in mutual masturbation and maybe oral sex or even going 69?

Maybe?

Some of that?

Sometimes?

Did I miss a memo? Have we changed the rules so that two 17-yr-olds holding hands is totally innocent but two 17-yr-olds kissing means they're both consenting to everything on the whole 400-point purity test (and therefore both child molestors) or something? Do people no longer take things slowly with a new partner, especially virgins with a first or second partner?

...

Then there's the real out-of-the-blue answer: to defrost them. If you've got nothing else available, wrapping the hypothermia victim and yourself in a nice warm sleeping bag or quilt or whatever on a nice warm mat or mattress with no clothing between you to restrict heat transfer is a pretty good way of saving someone's life. It's a perfectly valid reason for a 30-yr-old man to drag an unconscious 15-yr-old girl into his sleeping bag with no chaperone and a perfectly good reason for a 30-yr-old woman to drag a semi-conscious 25-yr-old man into her bed with no chaperone or whatever variation you want, and it doesn't imply sexual desire or consent and neither of them owes the other sex afterwards.

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

 

[cobra_ky]

anyone who needs statistics to link "dresses like a whore" to "increases chances of people wanting to have sex with them"

is a moron...

if it didn't, WHY WOULD WHORES DRESS LIKE THAT!!!??!?!?!?!

1. you still haven't defined "dressing like a whore".

2. there is a huge, huge difference between "people wanting to have sex with you" and "people raping you".

3. you're committing a logical fallacy. the fact that some women dressed in a certain way want to have sex does not imply that all women dressed that way want to have sex.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

 

[Harbinger_]

So there's been a fair amount of talk in the news lately about the issue of blaming the victim, especially in regards to rape cases. Some of this is due to the case of the 11 year old from Texas: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20042118-504083.html

Another thing that stoked the fires was the recent comment of a cop in Toronto saying "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order to not be victimized."

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/04/slutwalk_toronto_takes_its_message_to_the_street_/
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-slut-walk-hits-dallas-streets-story,0,2823196.story

Personally I think that there is no reason EVER that someone should be sexually assaulted or raped. Because you find their clothing arousing or provocative, or they are very flirty due to over intoxication is not an excuse to ignore their rights as a human being, and this goes for both genders and every sexuality. Everyone should be able to dress how they feel comfortable without fear of personal harm.

So fellow Escapists, what are your thoughts on this whole issue? Do you think that there is too much victim blaming going on or that it really is the fault of women for wearing short-shorts or miniskirts?

EDIT:
I'm noticing a lot of blame being placed on men as rapists and women as false accusers and I would like to point out things go both ways. Yes those statistics are higher but it doesn't change the fact some men falsely accuse women and some women rape men. The point should be less about one gender in the grand scheme and more about are we coddling the attackers -who perpetrated physical and psychological torture- or is anyone in what constitutes provocative clothing at fault (e.g. a man in a nut-slinger speedo is asking for rape just as much as a woman in short-shorts)?

Unless the victim was literally begging the perp then I can't see how it would be the victims fault. It can go both ways alot of the time for who's being raped by whom and as far as I'm concerned provocative clothing is not a fault. Rapists or any sort of sexual offender does not care what you are wearing its often what fits their taste and whats an easy target.

 

[II2]

So, kinda off topic, but on the OP's Toronto article, there was a womens "Slut" protest march:

Anyone else get the sense that this dude with the

SL
UT

Is trying really hard to conceal one of these?

Poor taste, poor taste, but just trying to lighten the mood a bit.


---

On topic, of course it's wrong the blame the the victim, nobody "deserves" being victimized and the history of attacking the victims character in defense of the perp in the courthouse is vile and disgusting.

- However -

It IS important to educate people to avoid doing dangerous things and being aware of their surroundings. While, ideally, we should be SAFE in a FREE society to dress and act how we wish without fear of being attacked or worse; that isn't the reality in which we live. This unfortunate, but persistent, truth increases the value of caution, awareness and identifying potential dangers. Realistically, a modicum of prudence and caution will help keep both men and women safe from dangers we can agree SHOULDN'T exist, but DO.

EDT: For what it's worth, I'm aware most sexual predators would put more weight on factors like Is she alone? Is she intoxicated? Where's she headed? Any alleyways nearby / can I get her into my car? probably determine a rape attempt more than "What is she wearing?" but, still - be aware and keep friends around if you're going out dressed for attention, etc etc.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Spoiler

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

What one person considers a comfortable summer outfit or a pretty dress is inevitably distastefully revealing and slutty to someone else. Not long ago I read an argument by a guy that women wearing tank tops in public have no self respect, and to wear anything more reavling than hijab-level of modesty is practically inviting rape. We all draw the line of tasteful dress somewhere different, so it's not as clear cut as you might think.

Though, I suppose we could all go out on dates wearing grandma sweaters, so we don't give anyone the wrong ideas.

 

[cobra_ky]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

1. What's the difference?

2. This thread is about all rape victims.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

Humans alone have the capability to override their natural instincts through conscious action. There is a large portion of humanity consisting of people who have no desire to ever reproduce.

You're thinking in extremes.

 

[AlkalineGamer]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

1. What's the difference?

2. This thread is about all rape victims.

Why do you think people say sexy? The need to reproduce is still one of our core instincts, along with the will to live.
There's nothing to blame them with, that's natural, it's at the center of our and just about every other livings nature.
But were just a little more formal than the rest of the wild animals.

Don't think in extremes.

Humans alone have the capability to override their natural instincts through conscious action. There is a large portion of humanity consisting of people who have no desire to ever reproduce.

You're thinking in extremes.

But that's the point.
Rapists are the poeple who don't overide their natural instincts. that's (usually) why they rape people, i'm not saying everyone is going to rape someone they think is sexy. Normal people do control their insincts.

Yeah there are people who conciously don't want to actually reproduce, but sex is still on the baseline of human needs along with eating and drinking etc.
Not saying we're all sex mad freaks, and ofcourse there are always exeptions to the equation.
But physically, not mentally, most of us do.

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Dressing provocatively, to make yourself seem attractive.
Obviously their not doing it so someone will rape them, they are however doing it so that people will think their pretty and have sex with them.
wether they know it or not.

So, any time someone says "I just like to feel pretty," they're just a slut in denial? Charming. Here is my fist. Please ram your face into it as hard as you can.

That's not at all what i'm saying.
This thread isn't about people who put on a bit of make up and wear a nice dress, it's about people who dress in a manner that makes them sexually attractive.

1. What's the difference?

Thanks for making me feel I'm not the only one here.

2. This thread is about all rape victims.

So there's been a fair amount of talk in the news lately about the issue of blaming the victim, especially in regards to rape cases. ... So fellow Escapists, what are your thoughts on this whole issue? Do you think that there is too much victim blaming going on or that it really is the fault of women for wearing short-shorts or miniskirts?

Yep, seemed that way to me.

Look, gamer with less than 10^-7 molarity of H+ ions, what makes someone sexually attractive to one person isn't necessarily the same as what makes him or her attractive to another, it can't be predicted and it can't be controlled to the extent you seem to be advocating trying to control it.

That means it's not the same as dressing like a whore, okay?

For example, here's a picture of Catherine Zeta Jones [http://www.posters.ws/images/274879/catherine_zeta_jones.jpg] not looking like a whore in my opinion. Many people would consider her, dressed like that, sexually attractive. Some people may think she does look whorish dressed like that. Some people would probably argue that any woman who went out in public dressed like that was begging to be fucked by strangers. The same goes for this image of Charlotte Church [http://www.charlottechurchfan.com/photo%20gallery/charlotte_church02.jpg], this image of Kim Wilde [http://www.80sempire.com/darkneon/images/pix/kimwilde/kimwilde.jpg], this other image of Kim Wilde [http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/300314/Kim+Wilde.jpg] and even this image of Sheena Easton [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RtMJ-VAHcnQ/TOCh0DwvGwI/AAAAAAAABQg/78wbK0AOIZQ/s1600/sheena_easton.jpg], even though you can't really see what she's wearing in that image. Not doing anything for you? Try Blake Lively [http://bp1.blogger.com/_NekYStKzkXk/R4PKKJzMKgI/AAAAAAAAABQ/b54outtoCU4/s320/blakelively+tuxedo.jpg] or whoever this is [http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/10/article-1025004-018D48E400000578-243_468x546.jpg] or this guy here [http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images-2/shirtless-guy-on-beach.jpg], whose facial hair some would take as an invitation.

People wear sexy underwear to feel pretty with no intention of showing it to anyone. Seriously. Women are STRANGE that way. There are professional glamour shoot albums lurking in drawers and wardrobes, seen only by the person in them and used purely for the purpose of going "yup, that's me and I'm gorgeous" occasionally. It's not an open invitation to anyone who happens to be passing by to break in, peruse the album, ambush her and have his way with her. It's just liking to feel pretty.

Just before you reply to that, ask yourself whether you've ever sucked in your stomach in front of a mirror.

 

[DoubleTime]

Also: OP, could you please tell me an instance of a man falsely accusing a woman of rape? I know you've already stated that "the statistics are higher the other way", but I don't ever recall reading a single story like that.

I haven't heard of it either, but I think that's mostly due to societal issues.

The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults on men go unreported, and even less go to court. Many men wrongly feel ashamed of admitting to abuse, even if its violent, and as such, I think even less men would be willing to take a woman to court- that background would make it hard for someone to make a false claim.
I have heard of men making false claims of spousal abuse though, as real cases become more common, so perhaps one day, we will hear about it.

False rape claims are abhorrent, and undermine genuine victims.

I can't find numbers, mostly because Google keeps "correcting" my searches, but its pretty much what Wutaiflea said (awesome name, BTW). Very few male victim rapes are reported, due to social norms and stigmas, which I feel is really the major issue at play in sexual assault of all kinds, especially rape and false rape cases. My point was more men can also be victims and perpetrators on both sides of the equation, and that it makes no sense to think that it can't (and most likely hasn't) gone both ways.

On that subject...

The drawing of lines about who is/isn't "always" at fault for one kind of injustice just perpetuates it, when in reality we should be teaching social skills and self-esteem rather than alcohol and drugs at parties is how sex "should" or "just does" occur. Plus how everyone, not just women, should know being really drunk or high increases the likelihood of any crime (rape, mugging, racial violence, gender violence) happening due to lowered inhibitions (the reason most people drink or whatever in those situations) and lowered ability to control your body (reflexes, cognition, what most people have been referring to as "common sense," etc.).

The attitudes about both sexes just need to change. Women dressed "like they want it" doesn't mean they do. The idea someone finds you sexy or appealing as a sex partner is often enough, and "being led on" or "cock-teased" doesn't give a man the right to even tell her off for feeling led on by her wardrobe, let alone molest or rape her. And men aren't just animals that can't control themselves. This idea their penises are some separate entity is ridiculous and not all men are going to cheat or be unable to control their dicks. Telling them they didn't know better is just giving them a pass because no one wants to hold them responsible. Gender equality means equal responsibility, not "it's his/her fault!"

Yes, there will be men who drop roofies or wait til the girl is too drunk to tell him from the door and women who cry rape because they don't want the social repercussions of their actions, but both of them are breaking the law! Plus, there will always be assholes, regardless or gender/sex/race/religion/political affiliation, and they're just that - assholes. Just pick up and walk away from them, no sense dealing with them, you just get stressed and they enjoy it.

 

[PhiMed]

Also: OP, could you please tell me an instance of a man falsely accusing a woman of rape? I know you've already stated that "the statistics are higher the other way", but I don't ever recall reading a single story like that.

I haven't heard of it either, but I think that's mostly due to societal issues.

The vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults on men go unreported, and even less go to court. Many men wrongly feel ashamed of admitting to abuse, even if its violent, and as such, I think even less men would be willing to take a woman to court- that background would make it hard for someone to make a false claim.
I have heard of men making false claims of spousal abuse though, as real cases become more common, so perhaps one day, we will hear about it.

False rape claims are abhorrent, and undermine genuine victims.

I can't find numbers, mostly because Google keeps "correcting" my searches, but its pretty much what Wutaiflea said (awesome name, BTW). Very few male victim rapes are reported, due to social norms and stigmas, which I feel is really the major issue at play in sexual assault of all kinds, especially rape and false rape cases. My point was more men can also be victims and perpetrators on both sides of the equation, and that it makes no sense to think that it can't (and most likely hasn't) gone both ways.

On that subject...

The drawing of lines about who is/isn't "always" at fault for one kind of injustice just perpetuates it, when in reality we should be teaching social skills and self-esteem rather than alcohol and drugs at parties is how sex "should" or "just does" occur. Plus how everyone, not just women, should know being really drunk or high increases the likelihood of any crime (rape, mugging, racial violence, gender violence) happening due to lowered inhibitions (the reason most people drink or whatever in those situations) and lowered ability to control your body (reflexes, cognition, what most people have been referring to as "common sense," etc.).

The attitudes about both sexes just need to change. Women dressed "like they want it" doesn't mean they do. The idea someone finds you sexy or appealing as a sex partner is often enough, and "being led on" or "cock-teased" doesn't give a man the right to even tell her off for feeling led on by her wardrobe, let alone molest or rape her. And men aren't just animals that can't control themselves. This idea their penises are some separate entity is ridiculous and not all men are going to cheat or be unable to control their dicks. Telling them they didn't know better is just giving them a pass because no one wants to hold them responsible. Gender equality means equal responsibility, not "it's his/her fault!"

Yes, there will be men who drop roofies or wait til the girl is too drunk to tell him from the door and women who cry rape because they don't want the social repercussions of their actions, but both of them are breaking the law! Plus, there will always be assholes, regardless or gender/sex/race/religion/political affiliation, and they're just that - assholes. Just pick up and walk away from them, no sense dealing with them, you just get stressed and they enjoy it.

Well, if societal norms make men less likely to report actual incidents of rape, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be less likely to report fictitious incidents of rape?

I think it's makes much less sense to assume that something exists as a societal reality in the complete absence of evidence in order to balance "the equation" than it does to question whether the event in question has ever actually occurred.

I'm not saying men don't get raped, so I'm going to stop you before you go down that road. I'm also not saying men don't hide it when they do get raped. I'm saying that I don't think that false accusations of rape levied by men against women is really of any statistical significance whatsoever.

This is partially (as you've stated) because of societal norms. There is nothing to be gained, socially, for a man to make such an accusation. There is no emotional support for male accusers against female perpetrators. There is no sympathy. There is only ridicule.

However, for a woman (contrary to most feminist assertions), accusations of rape usually lead to almost automatic belief by those in authority and an outflow of sympathy from the public and activist groups. I'm not saying that it should be otherwise. I'm just saying that this structure is easily exploited by mentally unstable individuals. Please see the Duke Lacrosse case for proof.

There is no such existing structure to provide incentive for similarly mentally unstable people with Y chromosomes, so I'm not convinced that it occurs in significant numbers, if at all.

Also, I reserve my right to tell of anyone for any reason, just as I respect their right to label me a moron for doing so.

Getting upset because a girl won't sleep with you =/= raping her, and girls do lead guys on, frequently. It's usually not in a party atmosphere. It's called manipulation. Many guys have done lots of chores for lots of women, including homework, heavy lifting, carpentry, auto work, etc. for free in the hopes that some day, perhaps, that girl might sleep with them. Getting upset over that type of manipulation isn't out of line.

 

[Saint of M]

Unfortunately this is one of the oldest defensive mechanisms in the human psyche, and one that is still too surprisingly prevalent with women when it comes to another woman being sexually assaulted.


Long story short: "It could never happen to me" attitude. The idea that you are just as lily as Jane Doe to be violted is the last thing anyone wants to think about, so people lie to themselves that it could never happen to them... until it does.

Is this bad? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes. Is this stupid beyond all reason? Yes.