Blaming the victim

[Nouw]

Snip

I agree but question is, if she was looking rather unattractive, would he have done it? I agree with what you're saying but minor nitpick with your analogy.

I mean look at these two pictures of the same person.

Spoiler: It's Megan Fox, yes they are SFW

One looks far more attractive than the other >.>

I don't suppourt blaming the victim in any way by the way, I guess it really depends on the person who's doing the rapist or are there not as 'tasteful?' Do they just decide to do it to someone regardless of who they are? Does it even matter what clothes they wear?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

That's (mostly) what I've been trying to get at. Reasonable precautions should be taken in near every situation, and if you can't be bothered to do so then it's your fault you're in a bad situation in the first place.

As for being sympathetic, the way I see it, the ones who deserve sympathy are the people who did everything they could but nothing worked out for them anyway. People who consciously make bad decisions aren't worth the effort to sympathize with.

see, I don't get that ... I mean let's say if you're a happy go-lucky type of person, and you aren't either cautious, but you're not stupid. You just don't believe it could happen to you. And the whole 'did everything to avoid' ... look the last thing you want to think about when you go clubbing is someone might rape you if you don't do x, y, z.

And nobody should have to think like that ... it should be a mere whisper in an ocean of merriment and zest for life. I think the last thing we need are parents like Big Daddy teaching their kids how to gut gangsters when they assail you.

Reasonable conduct, which 90% of people display, should be what is expected ... if a society literally turns around and says "unless you live in constant fear, don't come crying to us if you get raped" ... you really have to question the nature of that society and whether it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because it sure as hell isn't working.

 

[Call Me Arizona]

I think, for some people, blaming the victim can be cause by repeatedly hearing cases where the "victim" has simply been making up the accusations. Now I realize it is idiotic to say that because some people have lied about being raped, all of them are. I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty with both victim and alleged victimizer. I won't blindly believe the criminal must be innocent, but neither will I blindly believe the victim is always telling the truth. I must reason it out to the best of my abilities and the evidence presented by the attorneys. However, if the alleged rapist's lawyer attempts a "she was wearing skimpy clothing" argument, that loses almost all credibility, there is NO fault with the victim for being raped, whether they are wearing a slightly too short skirt or are naked, rape is rape.

 

[Agayek]

see, I don't get that ... I mean let's say if you're a happy go-lucky type of person, and you aren't either cautious, but you're not stupid. You just don't believe it could happen to you. And the whole 'did everything to avoid' ... look the last thing you want to think about when you go clubbing is someone might rape you if you don't do x, y, z.

And nobody should have to think like that ... it should be a mere whisper in an ocean of merriment and zest for life. I think the last thing we need are parents like Big Daddy teaching their kids how to gut gangsters when they assail you.

Reasonable conduct, which 90% of people display, should be what is expected ... if a society literally turns around and says "unless you live in constant fear, don't come crying to us if you get raped" ... you really have to question the nature of that society and whether it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because it sure as hell isn't working.

Something is clearly being lost between what I type and what people are reading.

I'm not saying "live in fear, everyone is out to rape you!"

I'm not saying "Oh god how could they let themselves be raped! Those vile fiends!"

I'm not even saying it's likely to happen.

All I am trying to convey is that people must be held accountable for their decisions. That means that a rapist must be held accountable for choosing to rape (ideally with death via castration). A mugger must be held accountable for robbing someone. And John Q Public must be held accountable for choosing to walk through a dark alley aforementioned mugger was standing in.

People need to be held accountable for their own choices, regardless of the consequences of said choices. If that means pointing out that they made themselves a target, then so be it.

I don't give a flying fuck how people behave or how they dress or whatever nonexistent bullshit will be read in my words, I have no interest or desire to meddle in that. I will always champion personal responsibility, though. For good or ill.

 

[Kortney]

A person doesn't lock his car == somebody elses right to steal it?

No.

A woman dresses provocatively == somebody elses right to rape her?

Hell no!

And yet not locking the door of your Mercedes in South Central L.A would make you an idiot.

I think there is a middle ground. No, it's not the victims "fault" but they sure as hell can do a lot to provoke it.

If a man can't keep his d**k in his pants, that's his problem not the woman's, unless he then rapes her, and in that case, he's a cruel, misogynistic bastard.

Most rapes aren't done by random psychopaths who jump out of a dark alley and have sex with the stranger. They are committed by people who the victim knows. Usually there has been mutual flirting all night, lots of alcohol and then when it comes to go time someone changes their mind and the other person looses control and does it anyway.

I'm a big believer in the concept of "if you don't want to have sex with a guy, don't lead him on". As a female, I can vouch that girls do lead men on and girls do flirt with dangerous people. Is it their fault that they end up being raped? No, but they were acting like idiots and they did a lot to make it happen. Just because they were raped and rape is such a taboo subject doesn't change this.

Back in England, I had a friend who had been flirting with some idiot jock boy at a pub for about six hours. He was known to be a loose cannon and she had no real intention of having sex with him, yet she was doing everything in her power to flirt with him. They talked and flirted at the pub, then she went to his house willingly, got into the bedroom, made out with him, flirted some more, then when it got down to business she tried to make him stop. He raped her.

Now, yes, that guy is a bastard and it is his "fault". But she acted like a five year old and brought it upon herself. She showed no street smart, no common sense and no safety. It may sound cold to say this, but it's true. I'd be willing to wager that most rapes happen like this. I think the really tragic and violent rapes are somewhat of a rarity that are overblown by the media due to how horrible they are.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't bring crime upon yourself. Don't hang around sleezy areas whilst flirting with dangerous men because you are bringing it upon yourself. It's the same reason why you don't walk around the ghetto at 2am dressed in a suit with your Ipad and designer wallet on show.

 

[gamer_parent]

Some of you guys really don't know a damn thing about rape.

Most rapists do so to people they know. Meaning, it's not some random stranger that sees a woman on the street, and then just follows them into an alley. Most of the time, it's a friend or family that perpetrates the crime, and most of the time, their clothes have NOTHING to do with it. It is well established research that rape is almost always about power and embarrassment rather than sexual arousal.

A cop telling victims or the general public to NOT dress in a way that is provocative is basically giving BAD advice, all the while assuming that a woman has control over the perpetrator.

Now, to be fair, the victims (because men can get raped too, mind you) DO have control, but not in the way you think. A person can control this by simply not being in a situation that can provoke it, yes, but skimpy clothes is not really a significant part of the equation.

 

[Leg End]

There is no 'cause' for rape due to clothes, if people pin it on that they are morons. People who rape someone then go 'Well they were asking for it the way they were dressed' need to be culled from the gene pool. I'm fully in favour of death sentances to rapests or castration, chemical or physical, but in the original post, I'd say mandetory death sentances for pedophile rapiests.

Yet no life was taken, so you are falling far short of the needed requirement. Either way, it's killing someone out of revenge, which no matter how you try to justify it, makes you no better, since you have the exact same pattern of thinking, if not worse, than whom you are desiring to kill. :l

OT: Can someone explain to me how an eleven year old girl was asking to be gangraped? D:<

What manner of thinking are these people employing? (=_=)

 

[Leg End]

As sad as it is to have to point this out, to the rapist under 18 might qualify as physically attractive. It is called pedophilia. Like I said, it's a dangerous world.

Actually it falls into two camps when under 18:

Paedophilia is sexual attraction to someone 13 and under, i.e. a child

Ephebophilia is the sexual attraction to someone aged about 14 - 17 (technically 19 but that's a legal adult in most countries)

The first one is a social (and sometimes literal) death sentence for the perpetrator; and not a single fuck will be given for them. It's a crime.

The second, especially when dealing with 15 and up is a legal minefield of epic proportions: I've met girls who were 15, but at a glance pass for 20. Picking up women in a bar is like a game of whack-a-mole sorting the legal from the jailbait.

Wrong. It's a primary sexual attraction to prepubescents, of which, the age varies.

With Ephebophilia, it's a primary attraction to adolescents/late adolescents.

Also, I suggest we stop talking about this, as it is in violation of a certain rule, and The Escapist Behemoth will eat us alive.

Captcha: affections nprode

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Snip

I agree but question is, if she was looking rather unattractive, would he have done it? I agree with what you're saying but minor nitpick with your analogy.

I mean look at these two pictures of the same person.

Spoiler: It's Megan Fox, yes they are SFW

One looks far more attractive than the other >.>

I don't suppourt blaming the victim in any way by the way, I guess it really depends on the person who's doing the rapist or are there not as 'tasteful?' Do they just decide to do it to someone regardless of who they are? Does it even matter what clothes they wear?

That second picture looks far more attractive.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Id say even if the victim is wearing "skimpy" clothing they dont deserve to be raped, or should even be called stupid. Can we not express ourselves without fear of being sexually assaulted or the like?

 

[Nouw]

Snip

I agree but question is, if she was looking rather unattractive, would he have done it? I agree with what you're saying but minor nitpick with your analogy.

I mean look at these two pictures of the same person.

Spoiler: It's Megan Fox, yes they are SFW

One looks far more attractive than the other >.>

I don't suppourt blaming the victim in any way by the way, I guess it really depends on the person who's doing the rapist or are there not as 'tasteful?' Do they just decide to do it to someone regardless of who they are? Does it even matter what clothes they wear?

That second picture looks far more attractive.

Was my point exactly.

 

[Cyberwulf]

Secondly - It's not the proven false ones I'm worried about... it's the number of ones where an innocent dude is found guilty incorrectly that concerns me...

You know how many innocent men are convicted of rape based purely on the word of the victim?

Zero. None.

I looked at the case histories listed on the Innocence Project website. You know what was a big factor in a lot of these guys going to jail? The cops. The police decided ahead of time that they knew who did it, and pressured the victim to pick the "right" man out of a lineup. Or they fucked up the DNA testing. Or they outright ignored the victim's testimony because it didn't fit, as when one victim insisted her attacker was a smoker when the guy the cops arrested was asthmatic. Instead of whining about evil bitches using rape accusations as revenge, take a look at the system.

Thirdly - An accusation of rape (even if subsequently proved false) can ruin a dudes life forever. And we don't see anybody leaping up and down screaming about how unfair that is, do we?

An accusation of any crime can ruin someone's life forever. But since you're so worried, it's actually quite easy to avoid being falsely accused of rape. Here are my tips:

1. Don't have sex with someone who's been drinking or taking drugs - even if they insist they're fine. You have no way of knowing how much they'll remember.
2. Don't have sex with total strangers.
3. Don't have sex with crazy people.
4. Don't get drunk/high at someone else's house if there's even an outside chance that later you'll crawl into a woman's bed and try to have sex with her.
5. If you are being chivalrous and are putting a drunk woman to bed, don't do it alone. Have one of her girlfriends go with you. When the woman's in bed, leave the room first.
6. Don't have sex with someone who's sleeping or unconscious, even as a sexy wakeup call.
7. If a woman says no, assume she means it.
8. Don't pester a woman until she gives up and lets you do what you want.
9. Listen for an enthusiastic "yes!", not just the absence of "no".
10. If she says stop, no matter how far along you are in the process, stop.
11. If she asks you to use a condom, use a condom.
12. In short - ONCE YOU'RE IN BED WITH SOMEBODY, DON'T ACT LIKE A FUCKING PIG.

 

[Blood Countess]

simple as this, blaming the victim is saying it;s okay for men to do whatever the fuck they want to women be it rape, murder or whatever

This crap is disgusting

 

[OutforEC]

Snip

I agree but question is, if she was looking rather unattractive, would he have done it? I agree with what you're saying but minor nitpick with your analogy.

I mean look at these two pictures of the same person.

Spoiler: It's Megan Fox, yes they are SFW

One looks far more attractive than the other >.>

I don't suppourt blaming the victim in any way by the way, I guess it really depends on the person who's doing the rapist or are there not as 'tasteful?' Do they just decide to do it to someone regardless of who they are? Does it even matter what clothes they wear?

That second picture looks far more attractive.

Was my point exactly.

I saw Transformers. Therefore I like the second picture better, the one where she's being throttled.

OT: The victim should never be blamed for being raped, but in some circumstances I can definitely see them being blamed for being stupid.

 

[Lord Kloo]

I'm going to put a different light on this thread:

In 2007 in the USA there were a rough total of 90,000 rapes or attempted rape cases (USA Census Bureau). There will always be a few cases that hit the news because the victim may have been to blame or was actually blamed. It can be guarantied that most cases that go to court will end up with the accused being found guilty/not guilty depending on evidence, etc..

Source: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons/crimes_and_crime_rates.html Section Number: 310

EDIT: Also the victim is sometimes to blame in law for the crimes committed against them. Example: Aggravation of the defendant in any way generally is seen as the victims fault but the victim usually doesn't carry the sentence it usually ends with a lesser sentence for the defendant.

 

[Jonluw]

Rape is of course not the victim's fault just because they dress scantily, but you should still avoid walking alone downtown in a miniskirt when you know there are rapists out there. It's not your fault, but you're still pretty stupid for putting yourself into harms way like that.

 

[Titan Buttons]

Victims can no tbe blamed for something that's happened to them but there are several people that falsely accusse people of rape.
The fact that people place blame on clothing for the disgusting actions they have committed is just such B*&%%#*&T and should be slapped across the face before being institutionalised

 

[Wutaiflea]

There are some very strange ideas flying around here.

Rape victims are usually acutely aware of their own responsibility- I have never (with the exception of victims with other psychological problems) spoken to a rape victim who has been unable to accept that walking home down a dark alley was a dumb idea, or that leaving their drink unattended at the bar was a dumb idea.

The point is, in these circumstances, is it okay to say they deserved to be raped for their lapse in judgement?
How many of you have walked home drunk? Or cut through a dark alley late at night? How many of you decided to walk home late rather than get a taxi? Practically every single person in the world, and the people reading this, will have done more than one of these things on many occasions.

The point is, even with a lapse of judgement, no one deserves to be raped. The important thing for most victims is to acknowledge that, whatever they did, they didn't deserve to be raped and were not responsible for the actions that were taken on the part of the other person.
In an ideal world after all, people wouldn't get jumped in alley ways, or be able to leave their drinks on the bar while they nip for a pee.

It's easy to say that a victim who gets drunk and agrees to have sex with a man she's known for a few hours should've been more careful, but did they deserve to be gang raped by that man's friends?

There are also behaviours some people exhibit which are not their own fault, but nonetheless make it easy for them to become victims.
Some people have said they do not understand how this 11 year old girl in the OP could have been repeatedly abused, but this is extremely common.

Some people, particularly children, are eager to receive reward and praise, and as such, will often capitulate to the will of an adult, no matter how inappropriate it may feel to them. The behaviours that can be learned from this are extremely damaging, and will often result in damaging behaviour in the future, such as seeking domineering and violent partners, or becoming sexually promiscuous in order to gain some control over their sexuality. These people sometimes become primed to be a victim.
This kind of thing requires much counselling and sometimes cognitive behavioural therapy to overcome- it's not something that can be solved by saying "why didn't you just say no, or tell someone?"

 

[Lawyer105]

An accusation of any crime can ruin someone's life forever. But since you're so worried, it's actually quite easy to avoid being falsely accused of rape. Here are my tips:

1. Don't have sex with someone who's been drinking or taking drugs - even if they insist they're fine. You have no way of knowing how much they'll remember.
2. Don't have sex with total strangers.
3. Don't have sex with crazy people.
4. Don't get drunk/high at someone else's house if there's even an outside chance that later you'll crawl into a woman's bed and try to have sex with her.
5. If you are being chivalrous and are putting a drunk woman to bed, don't do it alone. Have one of her girlfriends go with you. When the woman's in bed, leave the room first.
6. Don't have sex with someone who's sleeping or unconscious, even as a sexy wakeup call.
7. If a woman says no, assume she means it.
8. Don't pester a woman until she gives up and lets you do what you want.
9. Listen for an enthusiastic "yes!", not just the absence of "no".
10. If she says stop, no matter how far along you are in the process, stop.
11. If she asks you to use a condom, use a condom.
12. In short - ONCE YOU'RE IN BED WITH SOMEBODY, DON'T ACT LIKE A FUCKING PIG.

Well... since you're going to take that approach, here's my tips for avoiding rape.

1. Don't dress like a whore.
2. Don't tease people into your bed and THEN say stop.
3. Don't walk around outside alone at night.
4. Don't invite friends over to your place.
5. Don't go visit friends at their place.
6. Don't go out to clubs or other social venues.
7. Don't drink something your best friend handed you 'cause it might be drugged.
8. Don't leave the house.

There we go. Break any of those AND YOU FUCKING HAD IT COMING!

How's that?

 

[Random berk]

Wearing provocative clothing might make a woman a more appealing target, that doesn't make the perpetrator any less of a scumbag.

That's just it:

While I agree that the Toronto officers choice of words and candor were inappropriate, I think what he said wasn't exactly wrong. Of course, you are never, EVER to blame the victim for the crime that was committed against them, but let me throw this scenario to you:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.

I can certainly see where your coming from. I think there's a certain difference though. If you walk through a rough neighborhood, I mean really rough, with a wad of cash, then odds are whoever robs you needs money to feed their family, and that matters more to them than the rights of some stranger. Of course, there are scum out there who'd rob you even if they weren't in that situation,, but less of them, I'd like to think.
The rapist doesn't have that excuse. What does he gain besides pleasure? Who is he supporting? In his case, he is simply seeing something he wants, and making a conscious decision to take it by force.