Brink Dev: Analog Sticks Are "A Poor Man's Mouse"

[YuheJi]

It's not like I can disagree with the guy, but why bother bringing it up. It alienates your audience when you show a bias. If I had already known what Brink was, this would have changed my oppinion of them.

I don't see why you need a mouse for rpgs, aren't those the least twitch skill required?

It's not just the mouse. Most RPGs are crap by themselves(I'm looking at Fallout 3 and Oblivion) but are awesome with mods. You can't get those mods if you play the game on a console.

So essentially the developer designed shit, so the user designed something better. Great job PC developers.

I would hardly say that. KotOR is an awesome game, but there are tons of mods that give additional quests, dialogue, skins, etc. Mods can extend the life of a game dramatically. And some mods are so game-changing that it becomes difficult to go back to the original game (such as the Oblivion or Fallout 3 overhaul mods).

 

[Bigeyez]

Always makes me laugh when people state Pads are better for Shooters than Mice, because I mean if it worked so well on a pad, most games wouldnt need auto aim built into the game, and have it set to default...right? If it needs a crutch to make it work, it obviously doesn't work properly does it?

Auto aim actually fucks up your aim more then it helps a lot of the time. Especially if two targets are close together the auto aim becomes very "sticky" and can often result in you shooting someone your not trying to shoot. It's usually better to turn it off in most console shooters.

The auto-lock-on of the Metroid Prime games worked exceptionally well though.

Auto aim does not equal a lock on feature. Auto aim on consoles is when your crosshairs automatically move to follow a target very close to the crosshairs. Essentially it "sticks" your crosshairs to a target.

This causes problems with accurate targetting because, for example, you could be shooting at one guy and another enemy crosses in between you and him. Auto aim will drag your crosshairs off of the guy you want to shoot and start trailing the guy who crossed in the line of fire, which usually results in you not killing your target and ending up dead.

EMost people don't notice it though so it's kinda whatever. I'm the type of person whos anal about crap like that so I tend to turn it off in any game that gives me the option to do so. It indeed does make aiming a tad bit harder but you get used to it.

Edit: If you want an example of playing a console shooter without auto aim, play any Halo match and try to shoot your teammates. You will find it's harder to accurately shoot them because your auto aim doesn't target teammates. It's not impossible but it is indeed harder and takes some getting used to in order to play well without it.

 

[jboking]

It's not like I can disagree with the guy, but why bother bringing it up. It alienates your audience when you show a bias. If I had already known what Brink was, this would have changed my oppinion of them.

I don't see why you need a mouse for rpgs, aren't those the least twitch skill required?

It's not just the mouse. Most RPGs are crap by themselves(I'm looking at Fallout 3 and Oblivion) but are awesome with mods. You can't get those mods if you play the game on a console.

So essentially the developer designed shit, so the user designed something better. Great job PC developers.

I would hardly say that. KotOR is an awesome game, but there are tons of mods that give additional quests, dialogue, skins, etc. Mods can extend the life of a game dramatically. And some mods are so game-changing that it becomes difficult to go back to the original game (such as the Oblivion or Fallout 3 overhaul mods).

I'm not saying that the game isn't great, I'm just clarifying something he said himself "Most RPGs are crap by themselves."

 

[MaskedMori]

Well, they both have their strengths. I find using controllers to be easier than keyboard, but the keyboard can do more. It's all really whatever you get used to in my opinion.

 

[internetzealot1]

This game just moved down a few spaces on my wish list. It sounds like he's already making up excuses for something....

 

[Chipperz]

One thing to consider is that keyboard and mouse need a surface to be put on and used, controllers are held in your hands no matter where you are.

I for one would hate console gaming if it required sitting at my desk instead of hanging in a lazy chair, on the couch or anything similar.


That being said, mouse + keyboard just plays much more comfortably for shooters in my opinion. Much faster aiming, no pad can mimic the speed of your scroll button/hotkey weapon swap or any other moves mapped to your pinky- and thumb-range keys.
Forcing you to use both your thumbs for moving/aiming, 2-4 fingers on shoulderbuttons and 4 to hold the pad limits the number of buttons you can use/actions you can perform while in combat without being crippled/blindsided.

There are games that work better on a pad, and games that work better with mouse/keys. Ham is definately right about shooters.

In case you're wondering; I mostly game on consoles.

Champions Online gets everything except chat and the map (of all things, why the damn map!?) onto a controller - that's 14 combat actions, 2 travel powers, an action, and interact, a talk to and everything that they entail. it's not that hard to do, and it's quite easy once you get used to it.

The only thing missing is the ability to map extra functions to the buttons left over...

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

He's right. Analog sticks are nothing compared to a mouse. But at the same time, proper mouse play requires a hard, flat surface, totally non-reflective black for my lasermouse, which is fiddly and annoying as hell when I just wanna jump in bed and play on my side.

Precisely - while consoles might support plugging in a keyboard and mouse, the typical console setup precludes proper use of those peripherals anyways. Ergo if you want to release on the console you have to rely on the control setup you can count on just about every console operator having, and that means using the analog stick to aim.

Anyone who claims that the analog stick is a more effective tool for aiming is delusional. If that statement gets you riled up, congratulations! You're an irrational fanboy - now go chew on something or whatever it is rabid fanboys do.

For all the non-fanboys who are somehow surprised to see a developer state the obvious or think this is something there needs to be 'debate' over (it isn't), imagine replacing your mouse with a joystick and using that to point at everything whilst operating your OS. Obviously you wouldn't, because that is a stupid idea - the only reason you'd EVER use a joystick as a mouse instead of an actual mouse would be if you didn't own or for some other reason couldn't use a mouse, but still need something to function like one (this is assuming of course that you are not setting out to intentionally make your computer harder to operate).

There's a reason laptops ship with touchpads and analog nubs, and it's not "They're so awesome for precise aiming!" - it's impossible to build a mouse into the design of a laptop but that doesn't stop the user from needing one, so they provide you with a "poor man's mouse" instead.

Yes, you can get used to using an analog stick to aim at things, and yes, you might even get good at it, but it's like learning to play the piano with your feet: It's certainly possible, but why the hell would you do that if you have functioning hands? Well, apart from it being a neat party trick... the point is that's obviously a much less intuitive and efficient way to interface with the piano, just like the analog stick is a method of aiming that makes it much harder to precisely aim (and inevitably requires assisted aiming of some sort to compensate for that).


This is not rocket science, nor is it some terrible slur against your chosen gaming platform. Games that are released on both the consoles and the PC will look better (and, depending on your particular setup, much worse) on the PC, because the PC platform encompasses machines that are both less powerful and more powerful than the console platform. PCs are (typically) equipped with a control mechanism that is better at precise aiming in FPS games. Neither of those statements are a matter of opinion, and neither of them boil down to PCs rule, consoles drool!!!lol!.

 

[Disembodied_Dave]

This day and age where PCs can use gamepads and consoles can use mice and keybroads I don't understand why there is still anything to agrue about it.
It like agrueing if a Guitar or a Paino is better. Totally absurd.

Birnk sounds pretty spiffy though.

 

[w1n5t0n]

Always makes me laugh when people state Pads are better for Shooters than Mice, because I mean if it worked so well on a pad, most games wouldnt need auto aim built into the game, and have it set to default...right? If it needs a crutch to make it work, it obviously doesn't work properly does it?

The only "shooter" I've played on my xbox recently that has auto aim built in and set to default is GTA (using the term "shooter" lightly)... and the computer version of that was so riddled with bugs and glitches its pretty obvious the console version was the polished one. Call of Duty MW/2 has an auto aim feature on offline campaign, but i turned it off because all it really does is jerk the aimer closer to random enemies, it doesn't play the freaking game for you. The online multiplayer (really the only thing worth playing in CoD, IMO) doesn't have aim assist. It would be interesting if Xbox Live could be connected to some of the online servers to settle this whole Controllers/Mouse and Keyboard debate once and for all though, eh? o well, its kind of a fanboy's war anyways

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

In my experience, FPSes work fine with both. I don't think either deserves the "Game Controller Messiah Award for FPSes."

 

[Rusty Bucket]

Always makes me laugh when people state Pads are better for Shooters than Mice, because I mean if it worked so well on a pad, most games wouldnt need auto aim built into the game, and have it set to default...right? If it needs a crutch to make it work, it obviously doesn't work properly does it?

The only "shooter" I've played on my xbox recently that has auto aim built in and set to default is GTA (using the term "shooter" lightly)... and the computer version of that was so riddled with bugs and glitches its pretty obvious the console version was the polished one. Call of Duty MW/2 has an auto aim feature on offline campaign, but i turned it off because all it really does is jerk the aimer closer to random enemies, it doesn't play the freaking game for you. The online multiplayer (really the only thing worth playing in CoD, IMO) doesn't have aim assist. It would be interesting if Xbox Live could be connected to some of the online servers to settle this whole Controllers/Mouse and Keyboard debate once and for all though, eh? o well, its kind of a fanboy's war anyways

Did you just say MW2 doesn't have auto-aim online? It really does, it's some of the most forceful auto-aim I've ever seen.

And why did you feel it necassary to ressurect a thread from September to say this?

 

[JeanLuc761]

You're right, any PC game that is released is initially shit. Which is where Console gamers have an advantage. You can't get away with that shit and expect to still sell well on a console. You have to get their attention from the get go and keep it.

Good lord, please tell me you're joking.

At any rate, the dev took a big risk by saying that, but for all intensive purposes, he's right. Mouse aiming vs. analog stick, there really is no comparison. Mouse will have more responsiveness and accuracy every time.

 

[Nurb]

Its... kinda true, Microsoft was really pushing Cross-platform play with shadow-run and other titles when they were trying to put effort into Games for Windows Live. They advertized it as "Computers and Consoles coming together!" and "Play with your console friends over LIVE!"

The result: Mouse and Keyboard players absolutely crushed the console players.

The play was so lop-sided, it made MS abandon cross-platform play completely. It's been tested and proven to the point of breaking Cross-platform gaming, controllers are no match. Not that I can't enjoy shooters on consoles.

 

[jboking]

snip

Yeah, actually. Sarcasm isn't easy to transfer over the internet. My bad.

 

[ShawnRiles]

I prefer everything on the computer, except for when I have friends over.

 

[elvor0]

Always makes me laugh when people state Pads are better for Shooters than Mice, because I mean if it worked so well on a pad, most games wouldnt need auto aim built into the game, and have it set to default...right? If it needs a crutch to make it work, it obviously doesn't work properly does it?

The only "shooter" I've played on my xbox recently that has auto aim built in and set to default is GTA (using the term "shooter" lightly)... and the computer version of that was so riddled with bugs and glitches its pretty obvious the console version was the polished one. Call of Duty MW/2 has an auto aim feature on offline campaign, but i turned it off because all it really does is jerk the aimer closer to random enemies, it doesn't play the freaking game for you. The online multiplayer (really the only thing worth playing in CoD, IMO) doesn't have aim assist. It would be interesting if Xbox Live could be connected to some of the online servers to settle this whole Controllers/Mouse and Keyboard debate once and for all though, eh? o well, its kind of a fanboy's war anyways

I'm on about shooters that are first person, GTA has an in build LOCK ON system, that is not accurate MANUAL personal aiming from a first person perspective, also 5 months late response?

Also it's not a fanboys war, a mouse is more accurate than a pad, this is something that isn't down to opinion it's just a fact, now PREFERENCE, that is down to opinion.

 

[FactualSquirrel]

Yeah, I'd say that settles it. No matter how good people say it is, I won't be buying it as it's got a fuckwad for a developer. Seriously, people disagreeing with me is ok, but when I prefer a joystick, then why am I considered the poor person, it makes no sense.

 

[RadiusXd]

It's not like I can disagree with the guy, but why bother bringing it up. It alienates your audience when you show a bias. If I had already known what Brink was, this would have changed my oppinion of them.

I don't see why you need a mouse for rpgs, aren't those the least twitch skill required?

It's not just the mouse. Most RPGs are crap by themselves(I'm looking at Fallout 3 and Oblivion) but are awesome with mods. You can't get those mods if you play the game on a console.

So essentially the developer designed shit, so the user designed something better. Great job PC developers.

no, fallout 3 and oblivion have bad interfaces because they are designed for gamepads.
Morrowind had a MUCH better user interface/inventory system then it's successor, but they had to simplify it so the whole thing could be navigated with one or two unweildy miniature joysticks, and thus the phrase "dumbing down".

the reason mouse is better for RPG's is the same reason you don't see productive workers making reports with a gamepad.

 

[jboking]

no, fallout 3 and oblivion have bad interfaces because they are designed for gamepads.
Morrowind had a MUCH better user interface/inventory system then it's successor, but they had to simplify it so the whole thing could be navigated with one or two unweildy miniature joysticks, and thus the phrase "dumbing down".

Do you have a source for that? Is it simply because Oblivion and Fallout 3 were on consoles? Because you realize Morrowind was as well, right? You also realize that a good developer would take the time to make two interfaces if it truly benefited one of their core audiences, right?

 

[Vrach]

PC's are best for RTS and RPG. I find consoles too be better for the rest. And you would have to upgrade your computer to play Brink. Whereas with consoles, you just buy the console. Its not the poor mans mouse. Its the clever mans mouse.

So you're saying "consoles are better because PC would require money" as a counterargument to "consoles are a poor man's solution"? Right on.

Also, the game doesn't have particularly high requirements on the PC, nothing that could be said as a "gotta upgrade your PC before you play"

OT: And yeah, this is old news. FPS without a mouse or some kind of aiming motion sensitive thing is always going to be an inferior experience, particularly with something like Brink's fast paced shooter.