British Game Dev Decries Canadian "Vultures"

Canid117

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Oct 6, 2009
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So... suck it up and move your studio to Canada British devs. If somewhere else is better then bitching about it isn't going to do jack shit. The best thing to do is move to a location with better tax breaks and hope that the total loss of tax revenue will force the British government to become competitive.
 

BlindMessiah94

The 94th Blind Messiah
Nov 12, 2009
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Whine whine whine whine whine. Seriously, could they be complaining any more?
"Boo hoo we're in a competitive industry and someone is more successful than us. Also how dare they help fund our conferences."
I get that the British Government isn't helping the UK gaming industry here but all I hear is an awful lot of bitching. This has nothing to do with me being Canadian as I am hardly patriotic.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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A lot of things could be said on the subject, but consider that despite it's increasing size the game industry as a whole isn't all that big economically speaking. It's small enough where in the US it flagrantly engages in types of behavior that get other businesses (like gas companies) in trouble and under ongoing federal investigation.

While Canada DOES have a military, it's not a military power, and doesn't in general have as much on the table as the UK does at any given time. This gives it more leeway to encourage smaller industries through things like tax breaks, when they aren't plausible for larger nations, especially ones still dealing with recession.

All theories about why the UK goverment didn't give the tax break aside, the bottom line is that they obviously had reasons, and we're unlikely to ever know what they are in their entirety. Personally, I tend to notice that the game industry is so quiet about their numbers that even analysts have to make massive guesses about what it's actually work and what it's making. The last time I checked last year it was estimated that the game industry made between 19 and 50 billion dollars in profit. That's a huge variance. Not to mention the various other discussions I'm involved in here when it comes to those profits. The bottom line is that if I was in the goverment I wouldn't be approving tax breaks for an industry that is this secretive, because to be honest it's as likely as not that instead of encouraging actual growth, a lot of the people involed are just going to use the tax breaks to effectively pocket more money.

I know it's interesting/big news to us gamers, but overall I don't think this is that big a deal overall.

Also, as far as the whole "I'm moving to Canada, it's such a nice place" thing, really I'd do some more involved homework. All politics aside, as far as the civilized world goes Canada is actually one of the more oppressive countries out there, though arguably a lot of the people living there do not realize it. I say this because when I was taking Criminal Justice (well over a decade ago) comparisons were being made between the standards of the US system of Justice and our standards, versus that of some of our closest allies. One of the subjects that came up had to do with warrents, and the fact that Canadian law enforcement (at least at the time) had a "blank warrent" which pretty much allowed them to ignore all of those pesky civil liberties anytime they wanted to, as long as they got results. So, while on the surface Canada has very similar laws to the US, in practice none of those laws actually matter since the police can pretty much do whatever the heck they want, justification happens later, and while admittedly they can get in trouble for going overboard, that also depends on what they find.

At least when I was in class, the system was being compared (loosely) to others similar to it. Generally speaking the only nations that have given police powers anywhere near that level are countries like China.

Now, how things have changed in over a decade is beyond me, but the bottom line is that from what I remember this was the truth, and it wasn't that long ago.

It also brings up another interesting point, about where it was determined that most Americans have a better general idea of their rights, and legal system than the citizens of most other nations. This is in part why Americans are so "sue crazy", and the police have to be on their toes to some extent. A counter point to the various jokes people make about failings in unused "general knowlege" like geography and so on. Again this could have changed though.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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Y'know, this is one of many, many, many things I no longer classify as even the least bit important on my list of shit the government needs to stop doing.

How about not commercialising the student loan so that I have to pay commercial rates immediately ouit of university, meaning that my 18,000 debt which would have stayed steady for a year, then only half of it would have risen anyway, will now become a rising cost I will find incredibly difficult to pay off. How about not penalising middle class families who fall into the tax bracket of 'not rich enough to be upper class' but 'not poor enough to be working class.' I know the Tories hate poor people and everyone associated with poor people but they have a back door hatred of the lower to middle middle classes that almost goes unnoticed.

Also, how about not stopping dead a scheme to try and get more teachers into underfunded state primary schools? Do you just not care about any child who isn't going to a private school? How about offering incentives not to people going into the private sector but to people going into the public sector? I know you'd like it if Britain finally completed the transition Maggie Thatcher got booted for and became an entirely capitalist state but some people live in a real world where they have to work for their money instead of getting it from a massive inheritance from their snobbish upper class families.

How about not bulldozing ranges of new houses that were to allow cheap and affordable homes for first time buyers and free up more space for flats for just-out-of-uni students? How about actually fulfilling any of the promises you gave the Liberal Democrats, or just how about letting them sit on the front bench, which was an outright statement made when you got into government? How about not having your very first change in the law being made so it was near impossible to oust you if public opinion turned against you? How about treating your coalition like a coalition instead of your coffee boys? How about being honest, and referring to it as 'massive job lossses for anyone under X pay bracket' instead of 'cuts'?

How about, and this is the big one so any conservative MPs reading this take note.

How about you fuck off back to your country mansions with your servants and your tea parties and your croquet lawns, and how about you stop living in a past which never existed except in the hazy realms of nostalgia, and which if we actually reverted back to it would means horrific living conditions for the majority of the country.

To paraphrase, how about the entire Conservative government fucks off?

So yeah, gaming developers getting shafted is a little low on my priorities list what with how much I'm about to get the shaft in the next five years, and any student who thinks that they aren't going to get stiffed (unless of course your parents are fucking nobility), you are in for a massive surprise.
 

Dirty Apple

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Apr 24, 2008
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Therumancer said:
The second I see one of your text flash floods anywhere on these forums, my brain commits psychological seppuku.

O.T While I'm sure that the canadian companies would be just as P.O'd if their roles were reversed, you can't fault them for taking advantage of the situation. The canadian economy is one ofthe healthiest in the world right now, and if that gives our companies a bit of an edge they'd only be short changing themselves. All's fair in Love and War, and so on, and so forth...
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Dirty Apple said:
Therumancer said:
The second I see one of your text flash floods anywhere on these forums, my brain commits psychological seppuku.

O.T While I'm sure that the canadian companies would be just as P.O'd if their roles were reversed, you can't fault them for taking advantage of the situation. The canadian economy is one ofthe healthiest in the world right now, and if that gives our companies a bit of an edge they'd only be short changing themselves. All's fair in Love and War, and so on, and so forth...
Sorry, I lack the abillity to adequetly explain my thoughts in brief.

Otherwise, I think part of the issue is that Canada is a healthy economy because as a nation it has little in the way of responsibilities. While it does maintain a military, it doesn't maintain much of one overall in terms of size or expense. It relies on the US and UK for it's protection, and due to it's position it's pretty well buffered on all sides, being surrounded by oceans, wasteland, and the friendly US to the south.

This leaves Canada to focus on trade, and pumping up micro-industries like the gaming industry. I think a lot of the hard feelings come from the fact that if Canada had to shoulder more responsibilities it wouldn't be able to behave anything like it does now. A trade advantage like this is going to annoy allied nations when they realize that they are cutting things accross the board, except for the military they use to fulfill responsibilities and help ensure the safety of nations like Canada, while Canada swoops into industries and starts making bank through tax breaks it can afford to due to it's position.

Whether or not Canada could in theory maintain the military to take care of itself is irrelevent because for the most part it does not.

No offense to Canadians, but this is not a totally unwarrented perception. At various times Canada has been called a Symbiote or a Parasite depending on the mood at the time, and from a certain perspective I can see how the UK sees this move as being vulture-like.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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MelasZepheos said:
If it's any consolation, it sounds like Britain is going through exactly what Australia currently is.

OT: God, games developers really are shooting for the 'most self-entitled industry' record lately. "It's not fair that another country taxes less! Make them stop!"
 

Dirty Apple

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Apr 24, 2008
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Therumancer said:
Dirty Apple said:
Therumancer said:
(snip)
(drivel)
Canadian troops have been on the front lines of damn near every peacekeeping mission since the end of the Korean War. Even at the present, there are almost weekly reports coming out of Afghanistan of canadian soldiers being killed in the line of duty. To even try and pin our economic heartyness on some half baked idea about lack of international resposibilities is not only ignorant, but just prickish.

Our healthy economy hinges more on the fact the we have tighter legislative controls on our financial sector. I won't go into the details. If you have any real interest, and I know you don't, you can look into it yourself. I won't be posting in this thread again, so feel free to enlighten us all with your well informed walls of text. I'm done with this.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Dirty Apple said:
Therumancer said:
Dirty Apple said:
Therumancer said:
(snip)
(drivel)
Canadian troops have been on the front lines of damn near every peacekeeping mission since the end of the Korean War. Even at the present, there are almost weekly reports coming out of Afghanistan of canadian soldiers being killed in the line of duty. To even try and pin our economic heartyness on some half baked idea about lack of international resposibilities is not only ignorant, but just prickish.

Our healthy economy hinges more on the fact the we have tighter legislative controls on our financial sector. I won't go into the details. If you have any real interest, and I know you don't, you can look into it yourself. I won't be posting in this thread again, so feel free to enlighten us all with your well informed walls of text. I'm done with this.


For the truth:

Canada:

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ms_mil_xpnd_gd_zs&idim=country:CAN&dl=en&hl=en&q=Canadian+military+spending

UK:

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ms_mil_xpnd_gd_zs&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=UK+military+spending


US:

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ms_mil_xpnd_gd_zs&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=US+military+spending


... and for anyone who bothered to read what I said, it has to do with the numbers of troops being maintained. Sending some troops to a war to support other troops is entirely differant from being entirely responsible for your own defense, or maintaining an ongoing prescence/peacekeeping effort internationally.

In general when trouble goes down, it's the US and the UK that wind up having to deal with it. Nobody decides "oh gee, we've got a problem, let's call Canada".

It's amazing how Canadians will admit to a lack of military force, though usually in connection to making some claim like "well we're ahead of the US in everything else" until someone else mentions it. Then "oh no, we maintain this huge army, you can tell because we've lost troops in The War On Terror".

The point remains that Canada relies on other nations for protection, and doesn't spend much money at all on it's military compared to many of it's allies. The UK spends twice as much as Canada on it's military, and the US spends twice that. This in proportion to overall GDP, as opposed to in terms of actual money. The basic point here being that Canada can get away with this because of the defense spending of it's allies/neighbors. Canada might send troops to support peacekeeping operations, but it doesn't maintain a serious military prescence overall (on it's own) because anyone coming after them would have to pretty much deal with the US and UK before it's likely Canada could ever be engaged (assuming the current alliances hold).

As a poster from the UK pointed out (while disagreeing with it) The UK is having to cut pretty much everything except it's military, which is a nessecity on a lot of levels. It can't cut that huge bill and use it for other things in a practical sense. Canada on the other hand does not have to worry about issues like that.

Doubtful that you read this, but for anyone who bothers to actually care about the truth behind what I've been saying... well there it is (edited in).
 

carpathic

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Oct 5, 2009
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How curious that they are angry. Why not just move to where the grass is greener?

Come to Canada!!!


Also, someone is decrying the fact that Canadians are smart enough to NOT spend huge amounts on our military? I would suggest that the world might be a happier, safer place if EVERYONE was spending a little less on their military...
 

Lucifer dern

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Jun 11, 2010
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i am from the uk
i want to work in the games industry
cannada message me ;P i like snow and ive always wanted to try fishing :D
 

Callate

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Dec 5, 2008
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The United Kingdom has long had a remarkably robust electronic game development scene, from the days of one-man teams and basement coders creating six-figure sales. I think this strength has been taken for granted as that "basement coder" became an enormous team of coders, mappers, artists, musicians, sound recorders, testers so on. Now that developing a video game is a significant financial risk, it finds itself somewhat taken aback that its traditionally strong industry would like some help in shouldering that risk. And in fairness, Canada is far from the only place UK games industry people are defecting to- just ask Singapore or Malaysia.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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Well, can we help it? Our conditions, are better, and you admit it, if I read it right...

You could always just improve your own conditions.