British Game Dev Decries Canadian "Vultures"

karhell

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May 10, 2010
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To those who say "stop whining and move over to Canada", I'll just point this out : http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+between+UK+and+canada

Long story short, there are 3241 miles between the UK and Canada.
Even game developers have families, you know
 

Cousin_IT

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Feb 6, 2008
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The Canadians have been trying to poach UK workers for well over a year now, & not just from the Gaming industry. Would have thought we'd have gotten used to it by now. But I guess any excuse to make a thinly veiled ***** about the government for allowing these nasty Canadians to come over here & give us jobs is an excuse worth taking.
 

Miumaru

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May 5, 2010
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Sparrow said:
zakski said:
Sparrow said:
Also, by "UK" you're including Ireland. They have nothing to do with this, because as the OP says, this is about Britain. That means Wales, England and Scotland.
Comprehensive fail, by "UK" you're only including Northern Ireland, not the Republic. Northern Ireland receives the same taxes as the other three countries. The op mentions the UK repeatedly. Britain can refer to the UK as well.

The Canadian Games Industry is really putting the boot in, huh.
Psssh, you'd be surprised how many Americans think British = English. My freudian slip was just a mistake.
Well, whoever is and is not whatever, needs to make it clear for us what is what. I am such an American, who is so confused every time I say the wrong thing, who does not get "Oh its alright" and lays it out for me, but instead just confuses me more. I dont know if England is a country, or part of the UK, who is english, who is what. I eventually just started aying european alot.
 

RelexCryo

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Oct 21, 2008
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Straying Bullet said:
In all honesty, if the UK government doesn't make things work, I think you could move to Canada anyways. I actually heard nothing but positive news about them. Also, you never hear them on global news. A very quiet/stable country it seems.

Would be excellent.
I can't be sure of how true this is, but I heard wierd stuff about Toronto police and the G20 summit(Of course, that is just the police of one city.).

Anyways, it's rather silly of game developers in Britain to expect tax cuts, no one gets tax cuts in Britain. You want a government that gives free clothing, housing, medical care, etc. etc. to all your poor, puts up cameras everywhere to spy on everyone, AND low taxes? Not gonna happen.

Of course, making tax cuts might allow higher quality games, and therefore create more international sales and profits and bring in more revenue, but it is apparently the belief of British Parliment that it would still result in less money for the government in comparison to just taxing the ever loving stuffing out of everything.
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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luvd1 said:
Isn't this just headhunting? This happens in all businesses doesn't it? I have to say when I heard budget and that there was to be no tax brake I was surprised and horrified. If George Osborne is to dumb to realise how much money he would be bring in by having the tax brake, then we're seriously fekd as a country. And after just 7 weeks. I've come to the conclusion that we are indeed very stuffed..... I'm not a dev, but can I come to live with you lot too?
Head-hunting within a country... so what? Zero-sum game.

Head-hunting on this international scale, bleeding UK dry of it's talent. This causes people to move entire families and homes or even start families in Canada where most likely they won't come back and undermines further growth in UK developers as UK companies can't shop around for talent as they all live 1000's of miles away in the North American continent.

I have to say, Canada is actually looking like a REALLY appealing place to live (considering how hard it is to get a USA work visa at all) not just for games development. I'm starting a radiography course and over and over again I hear of people aspiring to move to the Canada to avoid the shitola mess here in the UK.

People are fed up of poor services, expensive small housing, high cost of living, high taxation, poor roads. This country just feels crowded and worn out.
 

k-ossuburb

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Jul 31, 2009
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I'm in the U.K. and I think that everyone is getting overworked over nothing.

Not to point the finger of blame here but this goes way further back than just this incident. If the stock markets, global finances and banks were kept in check and correctly regulated then we wouldn't need the massive cut-backs we've got right now in the U.K. and therefore be able to afford the tax breaks.

As it stands the financial crisis is still ongoing and we've had to dump a lot of stuff to keep the economy moving. You can get as irate as you like and point the finger of blame at whoever you want but the fact of the matter is that, in the grand scheme of things, the U.K. games industry is nowhere near as important as the trade, security, economy, infrastructure and exports that are required to keep this country afloat.

The government are right in not giving the tax breaks, there's a lot more important issues to contend with right now, it's not just the games industry that is facing a massive increase in taxation, it's happening right across the board.

As for the developers who are complaining about this, although I cannot speak for them I can tell them to shut the hell up and get over it. It's not like they can't work out a compromise of some kind that will allow the two countries to work with each other instead of grinding shoulders all the time.

If us (by that I mean THOSE) Brits can't deal with that then I don't think the industry will suffer a great loss, I don't think my country really offers much of a massive contribution to the industry as a whole anyway when compared to Japan and America.
 

Terramax

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Perhaps members of the UK gaming industry should be proud by Canada's reaction. We all know Britain has developed some of the best and most successful games for the past 10+ years, so the fact that Canada is activelly trying to skoop up the British talent is a testiment to how awesome the UK gaming industry is?

Of course, the fear is, if British devs do all flock out of the country, there won't be talent in the UK anymore.
 

Flying Dagger

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Apr 14, 2009
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The tory government balls' everything up and people are... surprised?

Though to be fair, I don't see how you spin giving the people who make murder simulators a tax break whilst simultaneously cutting funding to everything else to the average man on the street.

At least not convincingly.
 

Sparrow

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Miumaru said:
Sparrow said:
zakski said:
Sparrow said:
Also, by "UK" you're including Ireland. They have nothing to do with this, because as the OP says, this is about Britain. That means Wales, England and Scotland.
Comprehensive fail, by "UK" you're only including Northern Ireland, not the Republic. Northern Ireland receives the same taxes as the other three countries. The op mentions the UK repeatedly. Britain can refer to the UK as well.

The Canadian Games Industry is really putting the boot in, huh.
Psssh, you'd be surprised how many Americans think British = English. My freudian slip was just a mistake.
Well, whoever is and is not whatever, needs to make it clear for us what is what. I am such an American, who is so confused every time I say the wrong thing, who does not get "Oh its alright" and lays it out for me, but instead just confuses me more. I dont know if England is a country, or part of the UK, who is english, who is what. I eventually just started aying european alot.
Alright. I'm not going to be a dick here. I made a mistake, you've made a mistake. All is fair. Instead, I will be nice about this.

Scotland, England and Wales are connected. Together, they form Britain. Northern Ireland along with Britain form the UK. The rest of Ireland is simple called Ireland, not Southern Ireland or anything.
 

GrandmaFunk

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Oct 19, 2009
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Shale_Dirk said:
GrandmaFunk said:
for the brits considering moving to Canada:

yes, we are nice and relaxed, but we also have to deal with this every year: http://jeffsmyth.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/canadian-winter-iphone-nog-niet-in-canada.jpg
Only relevant east of the Rockies.
and Nova Scotia....where is that in relation to the Rockies?
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
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666Chaos said:
Therumancer said:
See we dont need a large military because we dont go around bombing countries for their oil. Or selling large amounts of weapons to a country and then bombing them several years later, or getting in the middle of wars that have nothing to do with them. Besides canada has always had a small well trained military force.


OT: Ok sure we are poaching game developers but especially recently we have been giving alot of tax breaks and plenty of incentives for all corperations not just the game industry. Dam you HST and your massive benefit for corperations.

.

-

Getting past all the US bashing, since foreign policy and the truth behind a lot of that would de-rail this horribly.

Aside from current events the US maintains things like a massive naval force to protect shipping. Not to mention the peacekeeping efforts that it gets involved in throughout the world, sending troops to deliver supplies, and try and protect civilians in various civil wars throughout the world. The US providing the bulk of those UN forces (while not being the only contributer) as well as handling logistics and administration for most of the western world's military and defense forces. As was pointed out during 9/11 one of the reasons why The Pentagon was hit was that if it was destroyed it would have had a tremendous effect all over the globe, while military forces would doubtlessly recover, it is a major global nerve center (and something it's criticized for, once in a while you hear comments about various nations wanting their military to be less dependant on the US for various reasons). Had the 9/11 attacks managed to take out the WTC, Pentagon, and either the Capitol or White House (we don't know which one the 3rd plane was after) the global ramifications would have been horrendous. Losing the WTC sent economic and financial shockwaves through the world, if we lost The Pentagon the affect would have been similar and compounded by the financial chaos making it difficult to change things. If the US lost one of it's branches of goverment, even for the short term, that would have been a problem.

At any rate, the point being that Canada directly benefits from the US military even when it's not engaged in war. While we are certainly not the only ones patrolling the waters for the modern equivilent of pirates, providing rescue services, and deploying peacekeepers we are arguably the most prolific force out there. The UK is likewise another major force in this, ane one of the groups that backs Canada in it's dealings.

While Canada *DOES* contribute forces internationally, it doesn't provide anywhere near the amount of troops that the US or UK does, nor do I think it could really do business and such like it does now without the support of it's allies.

If Canada for example had to establish and maintain more in the way of military bases throughout the ocean, as well as construct and maintain boats, submarines, and similar things to keep the trade lanes clear and support it's own activities, I doubt it would be in a position to do things like give tax breaks to game companies, and perform other similar trade/economic related moves. Heck, I doubt this would happen even if Canada decided to shoulder more of he burden that it's allies have undertaken.

Whether people like to admit it or not, it's the military forces maintained by the US that cause a balance of power that prevents outright war as well. There is a massive benefit accrued simply by HAVING these forces even if we don't use them, and those benefits very much apply to our allies as well.

The bottom line is that things like what Canada is doing are hard to justify which is why going to the World Trade Organization was entertained (though it turns out they couldn't do anything). Yes, it benefits Canada, but at the expense of it's allies who really can't do such things as easily, and whom spend a ton of money and resources on things like maintaining military forces the existance of which Canada reaps the benefits from.

While it's doubtful many Canadians will admit it in a discussion like this, I seriously doubt Canada would be very happy if nations like the US and UK suddenly didn't have these military forces.
 

Lonan

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Dec 27, 2008
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Therumancer said:
666Chaos said:
Therumancer said:
See we dont need a large military because we dont go around bombing countries for their oil. Or selling large amounts of weapons to a country and then bombing them several years later, or getting in the middle of wars that have nothing to do with them. Besides canada has always had a small well trained military force.


OT: Ok sure we are poaching game developers but especially recently we have been giving alot of tax breaks and plenty of incentives for all corperations not just the game industry. Dam you HST and your massive benefit for corperations.

.

-

Getting past all the US bashing, since foreign policy and the truth behind a lot of that would de-rail this horribly.

Aside from current events the US maintains things like a massive naval force to protect shipping. Not to mention the peacekeeping efforts that it gets involved in throughout the world, sending troops to deliver supplies, and try and protect civilians in various civil wars throughout the world. The US providing the bulk of those UN forces (while not being the only contributer) as well as handling logistics and administration for most of the western world's military and defense forces. As was pointed out during 9/11 one of the reasons why The Pentagon was hit was that if it was destroyed it would have had a tremendous effect all over the globe, while military forces would doubtlessly recover, it is a major global nerve center (and something it's criticized for, once in a while you hear comments about various nations wanting their military to be less dependant on the US for various reasons). Had the 9/11 attacks managed to take out the WTC, Pentagon, and either the Capitol or White House (we don't know which one the 3rd plane was after) the global ramifications would have been horrendous. Losing the WTC sent economic and financial shockwaves through the world, if we lost The Pentagon the affect would have been similar and compounded by the financial chaos making it difficult to change things. If the US lost one of it's branches of goverment, even for the short term, that would have been a problem.

At any rate, the point being that Canada directly benefits from the US military even when it's not engaged in war. While we are certainly not the only ones patrolling the waters for the modern equivilent of pirates, providing rescue services, and deploying peacekeepers we are arguably the most prolific force out there. The UK is likewise another major force in this, ane one of the groups that backs Canada in it's dealings.

While Canada *DOES* contribute forces internationally, it doesn't provide anywhere near the amount of troops that the US or UK does, nor do I think it could really do business and such like it does now without the support of it's allies.

If Canada for example had to establish and maintain more in the way of military bases throughout the ocean, as well as construct and maintain boats, submarines, and similar things to keep the trade lanes clear and support it's own activities, I doubt it would be in a position to do things like give tax breaks to game companies, and perform other similar trade/economic related moves. Heck, I doubt this would happen even if Canada decided to shoulder more of he burden that it's allies have undertaken.

Whether people like to admit it or not, it's the military forces maintained by the US that cause a balance of power that prevents outright war as well. There is a massive benefit accrued simply by HAVING these forces even if we don't use them, and those benefits very much apply to our allies as well.

The bottom line is that things like what Canada is doing are hard to justify which is why going to the World Trade Organization was entertained (though it turns out they couldn't do anything). Yes, it benefits Canada, but at the expense of it's allies who really can't do such things as easily, and whom spend a ton of money and resources on things like maintaining military forces the existance of which Canada reaps the benefits from.

While it's doubtful many Canadians will admit it in a discussion like this, I seriously doubt Canada would be very happy if nations like the US and UK suddenly didn't have these military forces.
I don't see the world as you do. You make it sound as though we are all just waiting to break out into full-scale war. That was true during the Cold War, but not anymore. Most war occurs by way of civil war in African countries nowadays, in the form of stealing, raping, and pillaging. It's not some grand global political/economic tug-of-war. The Cold War is over. I don't see how Canada benefits because I don't see what threatens us.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Lonan said:
I don't see the world as you do. You make it sound as though we are all just waiting to break out into full-scale war. That was true during the Cold War, but not anymore. Most war occurs by way of civil war in African countries nowadays, in the form of stealing, raping, and pillaging. It's not some grand global political/economic tug-of-war. The Cold War is over. I don't see how Canada benefits because I don't see what threatens us.
That's because we ARE on the edge of breaking into a full scale global war. What's more I'd argue that you, and almost everyone knows it too with a simple application of common knowlege. It's simply that most people don't want to accept it.

Let me put it to you this way. There aren't enough resources on the planet right now to support the population at anything close to the standards of living of the US/Canada or most of Europe. We're not just talking about energy here either, even though that's a big part of it. The simple usage of things like wood are a big factor as well. Even with 100% recycling we still come up operating at a massive deficit due to the constant growth of the population as well as the rate at which technology advances.

War has oftentimes been attributed to the "fear of not having enough" though that is not accurate due to the fact that it's a simple reality that there actually isn't enough stuff on the planet. Another part of it is of course human nature, and the fact that to solve the problem by obtaining resources from off planet and other issues is going to involve needing to establish a single world goverment/culture. This is something a lot of people find inherantly threatening hence a lot of the paranoia over a so called "New World Order" even ifthere is nothing paticularly wrong with the idea.

Patriotism and racism are also a factor to consider, I mean even in Canada you see a lot of pressure from people who are against the globalization of language and standardizing things to English (even if people can still learn and use other tongues). Pushing for French packaging for things like video games has been a big deal, despite some evidence with a recent incident with an important polish jet crashing because the Air Traffic controllers were not using English (like they were supposed to to prevent incidents like this, a demonstration as to why a global language is a good thing). Some cultures like China arguably also have racism intergrated into them to the point where the idea of a world ruled by anyone but themselves is basically an anethma above and beyond the simple range of patriotic pride that "we've been here like this for thousands of years, everyone should adapt to us".

There are a lot of reasons, and the idea isn't to debate any of them spcifically, the point I'm making is simply that it's not how *I* see the world, but simply how things are. As much as war blows chips, you can't magically produce resources out of air, and the bottom line is that people are inherantly resistant to the kinds of massive changes needed to resolve problems like that for a lot of reasons. We can't even agree to one language everyone learns (even among many) so everyone can talk to each other.

When it comes to civil wars in the third world, the people there have less to lose, and also aren't engaging on the same level that large nations are going to. As such things come down to violence a lot quicker and more frequently. I think right now it can be said that nobody in the civilized world really wants a war itself, though some DO want the results that will (hopefully) be achieved. I also think that deapite denying it, a lot of people realize how inevitable it's going to be, largely because even the biggest peaceniks are quite aware of the issues that are going to lead to it. You can't for example be an enviromentalist without realizing on some level that it's going to be those natural resources that are going to be a big part of the reasons why a war breaks out.

It's the threat of MAD that more or less maintains the peace, and the nations with the biggest an dmost powerful militaries (and those allied to them) that wind up being the most successful as well. Right or wrong, that's simply how it is. When people have said "Free Trade means he with the biggest guns trades freeely" part of what makes it amusing (darkly) is that it's very much true, along with other similar sentiments.

People in general do not want to die, nor do they want their loved ones to die. Wars, especially long wars, and most especially long, nessicary wars that can't be abandoned without a resolution due to the importance of matters involved, are not popular. Nobody wants to graduate High School, be sent out to boot camp, given a gun, and then sent do die in some mud puddle accross the world. Nobody wants to see that happen to THEIR kids either. But well, that's simply how things are, and people should be thankful for every year it doesn't happen. The civilized world has actually had a pretty good run without any kind of major engagements actually, and I think people should be more thankful for it than they are.

I am actually hoping that when things go down, and they WILL go down before too long, it will end with a global unity of sorts, and while violence and conflict won't end (including large ones) it will be the last engagement on that scale.

Of course a lot of this is sort of irrelevent to the overall discussion, being more about conflict itself and the reasons for it.
 

Lonan

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Dec 27, 2008
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Therumancer said:
Lonan said:
I don't see the world as you do. You make it sound as though we are all just waiting to break out into full-scale war. That was true during the Cold War, but not anymore. Most war occurs by way of civil war in African countries nowadays, in the form of stealing, raping, and pillaging. It's not some grand global political/economic tug-of-war. The Cold War is over. I don't see how Canada benefits because I don't see what threatens us.
That's because we ARE on the edge of breaking into a full scale global war. What's more I'd argue that you, and almost everyone knows it too with a simple application of common knowlege. It's simply that most people don't want to accept it.

Let me put it to you this way. There aren't enough resources on the planet right now to support the population at anything close to the standards of living of the US/Canada or most of Europe. We're not just talking about energy here either, even though that's a big part of it. The simple usage of things like wood are a big factor as well. Even with 100% recycling we still come up operating at a massive deficit due to the constant growth of the population as well as the rate at which technology advances.

War has oftentimes been attributed to the "fear of not having enough" though that is not accurate due to the fact that it's a simple reality that there actually isn't enough stuff on the planet. Another part of it is of course human nature, and the fact that to solve the problem by obtaining resources from off planet and other issues is going to involve needing to establish a single world goverment/culture. This is something a lot of people find inherantly threatening hence a lot of the paranoia over a so called "New World Order" even ifthere is nothing paticularly wrong with the idea.

Patriotism and racism are also a factor to consider, I mean even in Canada you see a lot of pressure from people who are against the globalization of language and standardizing things to English (even if people can still learn and use other tongues). Pushing for French packaging for things like video games has been a big deal, despite some evidence with a recent incident with an important polish jet crashing because the Air Traffic controllers were not using English (like they were supposed to to prevent incidents like this, a demonstration as to why a global language is a good thing). Some cultures like China arguably also have racism intergrated into them to the point where the idea of a world ruled by anyone but themselves is basically an anethma above and beyond the simple range of patriotic pride that "we've been here like this for thousands of years, everyone should adapt to us".

There are a lot of reasons, and the idea isn't to debate any of them spcifically, the point I'm making is simply that it's not how *I* see the world, but simply how things are. As much as war blows chips, you can't magically produce resources out of air, and the bottom line is that people are inherantly resistant to the kinds of massive changes needed to resolve problems like that for a lot of reasons. We can't even agree to one language everyone learns (even among many) so everyone can talk to each other.

When it comes to civil wars in the third world, the people there have less to lose, and also aren't engaging on the same level that large nations are going to. As such things come down to violence a lot quicker and more frequently. I think right now it can be said that nobody in the civilized world really wants a war itself, though some DO want the results that will (hopefully) be achieved. I also think that deapite denying it, a lot of people realize how inevitable it's going to be, largely because even the biggest peaceniks are quite aware of the issues that are going to lead to it. You can't for example be an enviromentalist without realizing on some level that it's going to be those natural resources that are going to be a big part of the reasons why a war breaks out.

It's the threat of MAD that more or less maintains the peace, and the nations with the biggest an dmost powerful militaries (and those allied to them) that wind up being the most successful as well. Right or wrong, that's simply how it is. When people have said "Free Trade means he with the biggest guns trades freeely" part of what makes it amusing (darkly) is that it's very much true, along with other similar sentiments.

People in general do not want to die, nor do they want their loved ones to die. Wars, especially long wars, and most especially long, nessicary wars that can't be abandoned without a resolution due to the importance of matters involved, are not popular. Nobody wants to graduate High School, be sent out to boot camp, given a gun, and then sent do die in some mud puddle accross the world. Nobody wants to see that happen to THEIR kids either. But well, that's simply how things are, and people should be thankful for every year it doesn't happen. The civilized world has actually had a pretty good run without any kind of major engagements actually, and I think people should be more thankful for it than they are.

I am actually hoping that when things go down, and they WILL go down before too long, it will end with a global unity of sorts, and while violence and conflict won't end (including large ones) it will be the last engagement on that scale.

Of course a lot of this is sort of irrelevent to the overall discussion, being more about conflict itself and the reasons for it.
The greatest threat to Canada has always been the United States. The idea that Canada would want the United States military to be large and expansive is absurd. I agree of course with the lack of resources in the world, aggravated by global warming. But Canada needs to improve it's economy to be able to fend off threats to Arctic and even Southern Sovereignty. The reality is our population is very low compared to other Great Nations, and the difference is quite telling when compared to the United States. A Toronto academic recently proposed bringing the population of Canada up to 100 million to achieve super-power status; but at the end of the day, that would be 65 million more people. It's not easy to triple the population in a short amount of time, and I have great faith that the politicians would be absolutely deplorable in making strategies for doing so even if they cared or even tried. So Canada needs to increase the quality of the populace because increasing the quantity is very difficult. And if we became a military nation like Israel, it would just make people want to attack us. Now no one wants to attack us except the United States, and they probably think they could just stroll right on in. In enemy that strolls right in without a care in the world hardly seems like a bad thing from a defensive point of view. But if we got hardcore like Israel, we might lose that advantage.

My point though is that you are saying that Canada wouldn't be able to give tax breaks if there was a larger military, but the economic reality is that building a larger economy before building a larger military makes the country stronger as a whole. Military spending is dictated by necessity. In WWII, Canada's military spending rose sharply when we waged a devisive war which had tremendous opposition in Quebec. They said it was a European war which had nothing to do with Canada. We went to war with Great Britain's enemy's regardless of the second largest province's opinion. At the end of the war, Canada had the 4th most powerful military on earth, after the USSR, the U.S., and Great Britain. Now it is the 23rd most powerful because we simply aren't at war. We should increase military spending, I think to 2% of GDP, but at the same time we have to get rid of Trudeau's Legacy, a half a trillion dollar debt.

It sounds like you're saying that the U.K. is using it's money to protect Canada, while we are using our money to take their skilled workers. I can see if from that perspective, except that Canada we have spend money defending Great Britain. Do we really need to have a competition over who has done more for the other? In the anarchy of international relations everyone has to fight to survive, and Canada has to fight very hard indeed. It seems like you're telling us to fight less hard.
 

Akalistos

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WanderFreak said:
Yeah how about this UK: improve your own conditions. That way you wouldn't HAVE to ***** about everyone else being better than you. See how that works?

Complain about how your industry isn't supportive, how your tax breaks do not exist. Don't complain when someone else comes in and offers your workers a better alternative.

You're telling me if the US game development community crashed completely, the UK would simply say "Oh no, that's perfectly all right, you stay over there."
I think you meant the UK game development... anyways. I agree. It's better to move to Canada than to ***** about your country. It's not like we put shackles on their legs in-between game.
 

Akalistos

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Falseprophet said:
Sparrow said:
Also, by "UK" you're including Ireland. They have nothing to do with this, because as the OP says, this is about Britain. That means Wales, England and Scotland.
The Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK (anymore). That sort of talk makes my Dublin-born coworker very angry. If Northern Ireland is somehow giving the gaming industry incentives that the rest of the UK isn't, I haven't heard about it.

Anyway, I understand the UK developers' frustration, and they're just using Quickstart Global's (admittedly dick-ish) behaviour as a lightning rod for their rage. So as a Canadian, I don't take it personally. UK ads asking Canadians to invest in the UK are so much nicer [http://www.uktradeinvestcanada.org/whats_new.html].
You've got to understand something. It's fun to be dickish to someone but when it return the favor, it nothing but distasteful.
 

Akalistos

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luvd1 said:
Isn't this just headhunting? This happens in all businesses doesn't it? I have to say when I heard budget and that there was to be no tax brake I was surprised and horrified. If George Osborne is to dumb to realise how much money he would be bring in by having the tax brake, then we're seriously fekd as a country. And after just 7 weeks. I've come to the conclusion that we are indeed very stuffed..... I'm not a dev, but can I come to live with you lot too?
Sure, join us and we can celebrate, Mate!