Call of Duty: Black Ops Censored in Germany

[geierkreisen]

Bla bla.

Here, you're doing it again. Germany is neither a police state nor protecting its economical interests with a sledgehammer-hit to the American knee-cap which are computer games.

We love American culture. I do too. Every gaming company, even the German ones, get this crappy treatment from our politicians, because at the moment games are "responsible for everything wrong with our teens". You compare CoD and MoH with Gothic instead of Far Cry and Crysis (both heavily cut in the country they were produced in, namely Germany). Apples and pears...as long as it makes you happy.

 

[Therumancer]

That Germany seems to be censoring foreign products for content far more vigorously than their own?

Pretty much for your response to mean anything, your basically trying to claim that Germany has never produced any kind of heavy metal, death metal, etc... or other products which involve violent content and let them slide. Now granted, finding the bit about the concentration camp victims is difficult (I tried and couldn't just now) however you'll find tons of stuff on German Heavy Metal.

I don't really get this. Can you clarify what you meant by the whole "heavy metal death screaming noises bit"? Did your friends tell and show you that the German goverment took foreign heavy metal songs, spliced them with sublimal content and then made them public for sale while denying having done so? That's what I got so far.

You might want to re-read what I said.

Domestic german heavy metal bands, took the screams of concentration camp victims and spliced them into their music. In some cases along with the music, in other cases subliminally, to make it more "hardcore". The whole screams of the dying thing. I have seen this personally as some friends I knew who were metal heads were really into showing this bit off. On the other hand I admitted freely that I am unable to prove it, at least for the moment, that might change since having seen it, I know it's out there.

That said, it was merely an aside, rather than the crux of any arguement. In the context of the arguement it comes down to the content of Germany's own domestically produced products, and the lack of serious censorship, compared to what they seem to be applying to foreign products coming into the country.

Heavy Metal is extremely violent and anti-societal, both in the music itself, and in the performances/subculture that goes along with it. Yet it's no secret that Germany produces a ton of this stuff, even if none of it involved what I mentioned above. You can find a ton of hits just by searching for "German Heavy Metal" in general. How can Germany allow the production of stuff like thuis, and then get all up in arms about a video game because it has violent content without being a hypocrit?

Even on the video games front, Germany has been producing games like "Gothic" which can be pretty graphic, again what is the differance between them making a game like that, and someone else doing it?


Also do not understand the point I was mentioning the concentration camp voices in support of either. I'm not argueing any kind of secret Nazi Agenda or anything, simply that doing so is very sick and violent. I think the bands were probably doing it because it was the voices of the dying, more than it was because of any great love of the people that did the killing. Free speech being free speech, it might be sick but I feel they actually have the right to do that. The problem is though that when a goverment apparently thinks something like that is okay, but has an issue with the realistic results of gunshots being portrayed in a video game.... of course this was an aside, I felt the need to mention it, but as I said I can't prove that one, which is why I mentioned other things, and Heavy Metal in general which is a fine example even without this extreme.

I also admit I have issues with the "anti-constitutional symbols" bit. I think a country with a history like Germany's should not be engaging in censorship at all to begin with, that includes censoring their own history with the Nazis even if it's out of shame. In this case however I don't even think they were censoring nazi symbols, but merely things someone in the country found offensive. In the past when such things have arose the German goverment has been quite specific in censoring nazi symbolism... in this case they have not been. What's more this game is set during The Cold War, with the USSR and USA going at it as far as I've read... it's not a game where I'd expect there to be any nazi symbolism for them to be censoring, and the fact that they didn't specify thats what they were doing leads me to believe that it's something else they were cutting out... and what's more the more trivial the changes the worse it arguably is when it comes to censorship issues.

 

[Red Right Hand]

At this point I could give a shit about the absence of pixellated blood, but the complete removal of "Sympathy For the Devil"? What's the German government got against good tunes?

It's the context in which the song is used. The sequenz is a rail shooter scene in which the player is using a mounted machine gun on a boat to shoot huts and enemys on the other river side. With this song in the background playing that "could" feel to much like a fun sequence instead of a serious war battle. At least thats my only explaination besides copyright issues.

Ok, if it's not supposed to be fun then why the hell would people play the god-damned game?
(I realise that it's not your view, i'm not attacking you, more, the German government.)

 

[geierkreisen]

Plus, where the hell are the Nazis in this game? I thought it was set in the cold war?

The USSR flag and other communist imagery is also banned there. And you can't really made a cold war game without the soviets.

Source?

 

[Blind Sight]

That Germany seems to be censoring foreign products for content far more vigorously than their own?

Pretty much for your response to mean anything, your basically trying to claim that Germany has never produced any kind of heavy metal, death metal, etc... or other products which involve violent content and let them slide. Now granted, finding the bit about the concentration camp victims is difficult (I tried and couldn't just now) however you'll find tons of stuff on German Heavy Metal.

I don't really get this. Can you clarify what you meant by the whole "heavy metal death screaming noises bit"? Did your friends tell and show you that the German goverment took foreign heavy metal songs, spliced them with sublimal content and then made them public for sale while denying having done so? That's what I got so far.

Not entirely sure, but I think he might be talking about National Socialist Black Metal bands like Thor's Hammer (they're Polish though). I quote from one of the FAQ sections on their website:

"What is the role of natural selection?

We support total death for weak humans. Why?

- This cannot be stressed enough: we are poisoning our planet through
our carelessness and raw need; there are too many of us for nature to
also breathe fully.
- Most humans are primitive intellectually, relying on reactionist
behavior like a group of frightened monkeys flinging their feces at
change.
- Most humans are so self-interested you invade the living space of
others with your demands; in short, most of you are dishonest, lying,
indifferent scum.
- The lesser mind forms a consistent lowest common denominator (LCD)
which can be manipulated by Judeo-Christian or capitalist politicians
to destroy Pagan, Norsk, Gnostic or Aryan belief systems in practice.
The lesser mind requires control, where the stronger wishes almost
none.
- There is no direction in the current growth of social systems except
toward more control, in age where control is increasingly easy. Once
established, control is nearly impossible to break."

What a LOVELY bunch of folks eh?

 

[AlexLoxate]

First Medal of Honor, now this. Brace yourselves people for playing Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood where the assassinations have all been replace with big friendly hugs.

Sorry hugs were deemed to violent by the German government last year

Now it's just going to be Poke Creed...

OT: Well, I could see why sensoring anti-constitutional signs is relevent. But the Rolling Stones is too far...

Well technically poking can be a sex related term so therefore BANNED I'm going to say somewhere in the lines of "Resulting conflict over some cake Creed".

 

[Blind Sight]

They took out a song because it contains references to WWII? What about Sabaton? Fairly sure they aren't censored over in Deustchland.

Come to think of it, what about history textbooks?

"NOTHING HAPPENED BETWEEN 1933 AND 1945 IN GERMANY, EVERYONE WAS FINE, THE HISTORIANS WERE JUST ALL ON VACATION."

If think you misunderstood something, we are constantly reminded of our own past and how evil we were and all that shit. Our own history books are more likely to depict us more negatively than foreign ones.
People cry about Hitler, Nazis or both on the slightest provocation, constantly proclaiming the next '33.

Some conservative ***** says something about how the Nazi's family model (women->kitchen, men->work(war)) is something we should reintroduce and there's an outcry, not because the idea is so fucking backwards but because she somehow said something remotely positive about Nazi Germany.

Then there's the Central Council of Jews, and apparently their only job is to cry Nazi! whenever they can, demanding politicians to resign because what they said somehow reminded them of Hitler or whatever.

I'm not saying we should ignore our past (phew!), but some of the controversy is so incredibly arbitrary, I honestly think we should give it a break sometimes.

Sarcasm and a Family Guy quote, my good man.

 

[Staskala]

The problem with your arguement is that "Black Ops" is set during The Cold War, with the US and USSR being the key players as far as everything I've heard. There isn't any real involvement by the nazis or their symbolism.

What's more, in the past when Germany has expressed concerned over Nazi symbolism, it's been specified as such, not "anti-constitutional" which is a very vague term. While examples can (and have been) mentioned here of other things that have been censored because of vague nazi connection, I do not see anything of the sort being argued here.

Noone knows which symbols were censored, so nice going to argue anything in that regard.

On top of this, for a nation that is claiming to be so distressed over that past, I find it disturbing that they are engaging in censorship at all.

When it comes to foreign products, I mention this because Germany has been involved in a lot of things over the years related to censorship, and not all of them are nazi-centric. It seems like games developed there... things like the "Gothic" franchise which can be fairly graphic, are given a pass, yet when games from other countries are produced and coming into the country another whole set of standards applies.

"things like the Gothinc franchise". Well other than Gothic and Far Cry there's nothing. Far Cry has been censored as far as I know, so the ratio is 50-50 already. Gothic, being a German game, avoided use of offending material during development, so obviouly there's nothing to censor.

While I admit I can't find the concentration-camp voices referance to prove that one (which bugs me to no end because I speak from personal experience), you can easily find tons of stuff from German Heavy Metal bands, and like you might expect from the musical genere it's pretty violent and anti-social.

The symbolism is only one issue here, the violence is also an issue, and right there your going to notice a definate dual standard being employed between domestic products, and foreign ones. To me it seems like the reasons for censorship are being used to justify actions against foreign imports in general. That might be wrong, but it's not even close to a conspiricy theory to say that it's exactly how things look from where I'm sitting. Besides, Germany doesn't rank very high on my personal "Trust O Meter" if you catch my drift.

Well, your last sentence makes everything so said biased drool, but hey, I'm open-minded enough to not care. Like I said, violence has always been censored for idiotic reason and the situation has actually gotten better compared to, say, 10 years ago. And I say it once more, there is no domestic industry. You can't favor something that doesn't exist.

Whether Germany is patriotic or not is something that really can't be argued. From where I'm sitting, it seems really hyper-patriotic, even if it's not engaging in the kind of stereotypical jingoism that goes along with it. You, and others, seem to disagree with me, but it largely comes down to a matter of perspective. I stand by my statement that I do indeed see this.

Your perspective doesn't matter. It 's like me saying all Americans are dumb, fat, gun-crazy lunatics. I've never been there, but hey, it's my perspective, right?

One of the things that feeds into that of course, is the general acceptance of this censorship going on. While the attempt at a ban against violent games in general was beaten, I do notice that there seems to ber very little resistance to censorship or heavy handed goverment actions at all going on. Or at least nothing frequently enough, or on a substantial enough level, to warrent making it into the US press every week.

Because the US press doesn't care? Or rather, because no main stream media cares about the rights of gamers?
What do you expect, large-scale demonstrations of people demanding to have their blood back? Yeah, like that would depict us in a good light.
There's plenty of resistance, even if you don't hear about it.

 

[Brotherofwill]

It seems like games developed there... things like the "Gothic" franchise which can be fairly graphic, are given a pass, yet when games from other countries are produced and coming into the country another whole set of standards applies.

I've played tons of stuff in Germany from foreign countries that was much more violent than Gothic, but that's the first concrete example you've given that I sort of understand (even if it's completely intangible). The censorship tends to go after this: copious amounts of blood (some in Gothic), dismemberment (a big no-no, none in Gothic), violence against humans (possible in Gothic, but it's hardly the main focus). It isn't the type of game to be censored.

Besides, Germany doesn't rank very high on my personal "Trust O Meter" if you catch my drift.

I think that's probably part of your problem. I can understand the view when all the news you get are: Germany censors this or Germany does that (because let's face it: big news are negative news) but I'd just recommend you to make an opinion yourself by going there. Nothing I or anyone else says in this forum will change your mind. I won't try to sit here for hours and point out logic fallacies or whatever, but it helps if you have personal, empirical knowledge of something before you judge it.

 

[The Imp]

First Medal of Honor, now this. Brace yourselves people for playing Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood where the assassinations have all been replace with big friendly hugs.

Sorry hugs were deemed to violent by the German government last year

Now it's just going to be Poke Creed...

OT: Well, I could see why sensoring anti-constitutional signs is relevent. But the Rolling Stones is too far...

Well technically poking can be a sex related term so therefore BANNED I'm going to say somewhere in the lines of "Resulting conflict over some cake Creed".

The funny thing about the AssCreed series is that they are completely uncensored rated 16, instead of 18+. Because the blood can be turned off in the options menu and the game is more focused on running and climbing than murdering everyone in sight plus you get a "game over" as soon as you start killing civilians.
On a side note: TES:IV(Oblivion) is also totally uncensored rated 12.

 

[Le_Lisra]

To be honest with you I find Germany disturbing.

On one hand they go through great lengths to try and convince you they are ashamed of the whole Nazi thing. On the other hand the method they choose to demonstrate this point with is the censorship of foreign products, including things that they somehow feel are "anti-constitutional symbols" which smacks of the kind of hyper-patriotism they claim to be over...

I'll also go so far as to point out that a lot of this seems to be grand standing for the rest of the world, because despite the job done on wiping out the Nazi idealogy, I have in the past hung out with a number of people into music generes like "Death Metal" who would swear up and down about how the Germans are so much better at it than everyone else, while demonstrating how they spliced the screams of Nazi concentration camp victims into the music, or added them in subliminally. I've remained intentionally ignorant of the specific bands that were doing this kind of thing, but the bottom line is that it make quite an impression on me at the time. If you have Germany producing this kind of thing domestically, not to mention garden variety heavy metal which can get far worse than "The Rolling Stones" has ever been, I can't take their censorship of foreign products on these grounds as anything but a political publicity stunt, or more disturbingly attempts to filter outside ideas justified by only the thinnest veneer of logic

While I'm bereft of any pride or patriotic feelings towards my birthplace I have to comment, because this is not really fair.

The ban on anti-constitutional symbols has nothing to do with patriotism. A variety of symbols (the swastika, certain runes...) are simply forbidden to be shown in certain contexts. That is set down in the "constitution", the basic law ("" because it isn't technically a constitution, but I digress). Among other things this is the result of the denazification process which was pushed by the allies after WW2. That's the way it is over there. It can go to ridiculous lengths to be honest, a few years back a left-wing online store was busted for selling pins and stuff that featured a crossed out swastika, but in general it is approved of by the majority (and myself).

The rolling stones song was probably cut because we have an agency there (the GEMA) which has some veeeeeeeery strange rules on how songs can be used in the media. That's the only thing I can think of.

I can't dispute that Germany has a lot of home-grown fascist music. There is also a number of neo-fascists - but is this really surprising? of course not, there will always be idiots, and it is the biggest and most fought social issue. At least there are no black uniformed fighting corps (like in.. Hungary? Or some eastern european place, I forget..).
ANY music openly supporting fascism is banned from being sold in retail and bands may expect a visit from on of the different police branches. It is taken seriously.

Dark/Death Metal band Eisregen, with no fascist connections whatsoever, has numerous banned albums, as have quite a few other bands. You can get them legally if you are an adult though.

Germany has censored violence in the media for years. Quake 3 was banned, System Shock 2 had yellow blood, Half-Life featured robots instead of marines.. that is often really silly and I can't defend it - but I urge you all not to see it as an attempt to offend the makers or anyone - it is a misguided attempt at protecting the youth, and even the people responsible for the ratings in Germany fight for a better way of doing that.

 

[Avayu]

The problem with your arguement is that "Black Ops" is set during The Cold War, with the US and USSR being the key players as far as everything I've heard. There isn't any real involvement by the nazis or their symbolism.

What's more, in the past when Germany has expressed concerned over Nazi symbolism, it's been specified as such, not "anti-constitutional" which is a very vague term. While examples can (and have been) mentioned here of other things that have been censored because of vague nazi connection, I do not see anything of the sort being argued here.

Can't really argue with that, but I'm pretty sure the USK has found something like that or they wouldn't have written that.

On top of this, for a nation that is claiming to be so distressed over that past, I find it disturbing that they are engaging in censorship at all.

You got it the wrong way round. Germany censors a lot of things because it thinks that it has learned from its past. It is what is often referred to as a fortified democracy. So, after the war, some people sat together to write the Grundgesetz (the German temporary constitution that is still in place and they thought: "Liberties? Yeah those are fine. People should be free, But wait! There was a time when people where so free that they decided to throw all liberties over board and got themselves a dictator that ruined half of Europe. So maybe a little less freedom of speech and bit more stability ..." And the Americans agreed with them ...

When it comes to foreign products, I mention this because Germany has been involved in a lot of things over the years related to censorship, and not all of them are nazi-centric. It seems like games developed there... things like the "Gothic" franchise which can be fairly graphic, are given a pass, yet when games from other countries are produced and coming into the country another whole set of standards applies.

I think there is a paragraph in that law about violence that is clearly fantastic and violence that is meant to look realistic. Different rule apply if you kill a giant spider or a human being. Other than that, I can see that in this case some parts may as well be voluntary self-censorship on the part of Activision, to try to get a 16+ rating instead of an 18+. But that is a theory that just came to my mind.

While I admit I can't find the concentration-camp voices referance to prove that one (which bugs me to no end because I speak from personal experience), you can easily find tons of stuff from German Heavy Metal bands, and like you might expect from the musical genere it's pretty violent and anti-social.

Tell me about those bands, because that would definitely be a crime worth of punishing, especially under German law. I don't get your hate for metal, because there also is a lot of stuff that isn't anti-social, but whatever floats your boat.

The symbolism is only one issue here, the violence is also an issue, and right there your going to notice a definate dual standard being employed between domestic products, and foreign ones. To me it seems like the reasons for censorship are being used to justify actions against foreign imports in general. That might be wrong, but it's not even close to a conspiricy theory to say that it's exactly how things look from where I'm sitting. Besides, Germany doesn't rank very high on my personal "Trust O Meter" if you catch my drift.

I really don't know. Censorship as a way to restrict foreign imports to me seems like a pretty ineffective way, but maybe there is a slight bias. And your trust-o-meter, that seems to be only your own issue, so I won't ask about that.

Whether Germany is patriotic or not is something that really can't be argued. From where I'm sitting, it seems really hyper-patriotic, even if it's not engaging in the kind of stereotypical jingoism that goes along with it. You, and others, seem to disagree with me, but it largely comes down to a matter of perspective. I stand by my statement that I do indeed see this.

Allow me to laugh ...
So now. As a German, walk up to another German and tell them that you're proud to be German. Note answer, rinse, repeat. In 75% of all cases you'll get a strange look, 5% will ask you if you're a Nazi. That's the perspective of a person who sees this behaviour every day, thank you very much.

One of the things that feeds into that of course, is the general acceptance of this censorship going on. While the attempt at a ban against violent games in general was beaten, I do notice that there seems to ber very little resistance to censorship or heavy handed goverment actions at all going on. Or at least nothing frequently enough, or on a substantial enough level, to warrent making it into the US press every week.

That may also be a matter of US press, thought of that?
I can tell you, though, it's not just that. Partially, you're right. Germans sometimes like their little bit of censorship. It gives them a feeling of safety, because a lot of them are afraid of themselves and their history. But at least we don't censor every swear word and every little bit of tits you can see on TV.

 

[Staskala]

They took out a song because it contains references to WWII? What about Sabaton? Fairly sure they aren't censored over in Deustchland.

Come to think of it, what about history textbooks?

"NOTHING HAPPENED BETWEEN 1933 AND 1945 IN GERMANY, EVERYONE WAS FINE, THE HISTORIANS WERE JUST ALL ON VACATION."

If think you misunderstood something, we are constantly reminded of our own past and how evil we were and all that shit. Our own history books are more likely to depict us more negatively than foreign ones.
People cry about Hitler, Nazis or both on the slightest provocation, constantly proclaiming the next '33.

Some conservative ***** says something about how the Nazi's family model (women->kitchen, men->work(war)) is something we should reintroduce and there's an outcry, not because the idea is so fucking backwards but because she somehow said something remotely positive about Nazi Germany.

Then there's the Central Council of Jews, and apparently their only job is to cry Nazi! whenever they can, demanding politicians to resign because what they said somehow reminded them of Hitler or whatever.

I'm not saying we should ignore our past (phew!), but some of the controversy is so incredibly arbitrary, I honestly think we should give it a break sometimes.

Sarcasm and a Family Guy quote, my good man.

Ok, got me there.
From my personal experience, some people take Family Guy jokes at face value and then treat them as facts. I wish I was kidding when I say that I met several people who were all surprised that we aren't wearing Lederhosen anymore.
With the internet in particular you can never know when someone's trolling, being sarcastic or just that stupid.

Oh well, the stereotype about us being hyper-sensitive might actually be true.

 

[Therumancer]

The problem with your arguement is that "Black Ops" is set during The Cold War, with the US and USSR being the key players as far as everything I've heard. There isn't any real involvement by the nazis or their symbolism.

What's more, in the past when Germany has expressed concerned over Nazi symbolism, it's been specified as such, not "anti-constitutional" which is a very vague term. While examples can (and have been) mentioned here of other things that have been censored because of vague nazi connection, I do not see anything of the sort being argued here.

Noone knows which symbols were censored, so nice going to argue anything in that regard.

On top of this, for a nation that is claiming to be so distressed over that past, I find it disturbing that they are engaging in censorship at all.

When it comes to foreign products, I mention this because Germany has been involved in a lot of things over the years related to censorship, and not all of them are nazi-centric. It seems like games developed there... things like the "Gothic" franchise which can be fairly graphic, are given a pass, yet when games from other countries are produced and coming into the country another whole set of standards applies.

"things like the Gothinc franchise". Well other than Gothic and Far Cry there's nothing. Far Cry has been censored as far as I know, so the ratio is 50-50 already. Gothic, being a German game, avoided use of offending material during development, so obviouly there's nothing to censor.

While I admit I can't find the concentration-camp voices referance to prove that one (which bugs me to no end because I speak from personal experience), you can easily find tons of stuff from German Heavy Metal bands, and like you might expect from the musical genere it's pretty violent and anti-social.

The symbolism is only one issue here, the violence is also an issue, and right there your going to notice a definate dual standard being employed between domestic products, and foreign ones. To me it seems like the reasons for censorship are being used to justify actions against foreign imports in general. That might be wrong, but it's not even close to a conspiricy theory to say that it's exactly how things look from where I'm sitting. Besides, Germany doesn't rank very high on my personal "Trust O Meter" if you catch my drift.

Well, your last sentence makes everything so said biased drool, but hey, I'm open-minded enough to not care. Like I said, violence has always been censored for idiotic reason and the situation has actually gotten better compared to, say, 10 years ago. And I say it once more, there is no domestic industry. You can't favor something that doesn't exist.

Whether Germany is patriotic or not is something that really can't be argued. From where I'm sitting, it seems really hyper-patriotic, even if it's not engaging in the kind of stereotypical jingoism that goes along with it. You, and others, seem to disagree with me, but it largely comes down to a matter of perspective. I stand by my statement that I do indeed see this.

Your perspective doesn't matter. It 's like me saying all Americans are dumb, fat, gun-crazy lunatics. I've never been there, but hey, it's my perspective, right?

One of the things that feeds into that of course, is the general acceptance of this censorship going on. While the attempt at a ban against violent games in general was beaten, I do notice that there seems to ber very little resistance to censorship or heavy handed goverment actions at all going on. Or at least nothing frequently enough, or on a substantial enough level, to warrent making it into the US press every week.

Because the US press doesn't care? Or rather, because no main stream media cares about the rights of gamers?
What do you expect, large-scale demonstrations of people demanding to have their blood back? Yeah, like that would depict us in a good light.
There's plenty of resistance, even if you don't hear about it.

Doesn't matter if it soundes like "biased drool" or not. Heck, unlike most people I'm honest when I'm biased, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to be.

See, the thing here is that you seem not to care about what was censored from the game. That right there is a problem. While I don't expect the German citizens to be screaming "give us our blood back" I find it disturbing when nobody bothers to say anything about censorship and a govement engaging in it for "non constitutional symbols" no matter what was there. The fact that people seem to actively be defending Germany in this makes thing even worse.

Also while you do at least try and mention some of the points with "Gothic", I notice you don't bother to even touch the issue of the production of Heavy Metal in general. Is that, or is it not a dual standard? It certainly seems like one to me.

As far as not trusting Germany goes, that's not "drool", that's just honesty. Two world wars, and an active engagement in censorship not long after we allow it to re-unify. While plenty of reasons not to trust the US, and other countries exist (and can be fired back), the bottom like here is that I don't think I'm being paticularly unreasonable. As far as I'm concerned Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust, as opposed to being trusted as a default position. The very fact that Germany censors anything is a cause for concern, especially when they are using a dual standard.

 

[Therumancer]

It seems like games developed there... things like the "Gothic" franchise which can be fairly graphic, are given a pass, yet when games from other countries are produced and coming into the country another whole set of standards applies.

I've played tons of stuff in Germany from foreign countries that was much more violent than Gothic, but that's the first concrete example you've given that I sort of understand (even if it's completely intangible). The censorship tends to go after this: copious amounts of blood (some in Gothic), dismemberment (a big no-no, none in Gothic), violence against humans (possible in Gothic, but it's hardly the main focus). It isn't the type of game to be censored.

Besides, Germany doesn't rank very high on my personal "Trust O Meter" if you catch my drift.

I think that's probably part of your problem. I can understand the view when all the news you get are: Germany censors this or Germany does that (because let's face it: big news are negative news) but I'd just recommend you to make an opinion yourself by going there. Nothing I or anyone else says in this forum will change your mind. I won't try to sit here for hours and point out logic fallacies or whatever, but it helps if you have personal, empirical knowledge of something before you judge it.

Actualy it's not the first concrete example I've given. It's simply the only example people want to address because it's the only one which can be argued in favor of the point most people I'm debating want make.

In fact the only non-concrete example I've given was the use of death screams in German Heavy Metal. On the issue of Heavy Metal in general though (beyond that) I do notice that nobody wants to go there, because that makes the dual standard ridiculously transparent.

As far as the content in Gothic goes, consider that "Call Of Duty" is currently being censored for the realistic portrayal of gunshot wounds. Not graphic dismemberment or anything as far as I can tell. Both Gothic and Call Of Duty have combat where blood can be spilled from their respective attacks. There is no functional differance between showing blood from someone being shot, and showing blood from someone being stabbed or cut open. What's more Gothic games (as I remember) have included bits with arrows and the like protruding out of the targets after they have been hit.

It's not really a defendable point.

On top of that, I think there is something definatly wrong when people take a "we trust our goverment" stance when they engage on censorship to remove "non-constitutional symbols". Especially when the goverment is usually quite straightforward about saying when they are engaging in anti-nazi censorship (which is also a bad thing, as censorship always is). What's more the game is about "The Cold War" not a conflict that Nazis fought in.... no offense but there is something really wrong there.

As far as trusting Germany goes, I hate to break it to you, but Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust. I do not think it's a country with a history that warrents giving it the benefit of the doubt. Oh sure, plenty of bad things can be said about other countries, including my own, but as far as I'm concerned Germany occupies a rather unique position due to it's history.

 

[Staskala]

Doesn't matter if it soundes like "biased drool" or not. Heck, unlike most people I'm honest when I'm biased, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong to be.

See, the thing here is that you seem not to care about what was censored from the game. That right there is a problem. While I don't expect the German citizens to be screaming "give us our blood back" I find it disturbing when nobody bothers to say anything about censorship and a govement engaging in it for "non constitutional symbols" no matter what was there. The fact that people seem to actively be defending Germany in this makes thing even worse.

Also while you do at least try and mention some of the points with "Gothic", I notice you don't bother to even touch the issue of the production of Heavy Metal in general. Is that, or is it not a dual standard? It certainly seems like one to me.

As far as not trusting Germany goes, that's not "drool", that's just honesty. Two world wars, and an active engagement in censorship not long after we allow it to re-unify. While plenty of reasons not to trust the US, and other countries exist (and can be fired back), the bottom like here is that I don't think I'm being paticularly unreasonable. As far as I'm concerned Germany is in a position where it has to earn trust, as opposed to being trusted as a default position. The very fact that Germany censors anything is a cause for concern, especially when they are using a dual standard.

I indeed don't care about German censorship because I never buy anything here. Thus none of the games I own are censored. The "resistance" is simply making uncensor patches and that's usually enough. There are a few petitions and stuff going on, but without higher support that's not going anywhere.
I don't touch Heavy Metal because this is the first instance of anything being cut in that direction.
You see, it never happened before. Like I said, you can buy the song just fine here, so I don't know why it was cut.

You know who demanded censorship after WWII? No other country than the USA. For good reasons, I might add. And the "earning trust" argument is a bit outdated, like 50 years or so.
At least earning the trust of relevant people.

 

[porschecm2]

On an unrelated note, while writing this I mistakenly called the game "Treyarch: Black Ops." That seems like it'd be a fun game to play, though I don't know if game designers would be particularly good at wetworks.

It'd be funnier if it were "Infinity Ward: Black Ops." You could play as Activision Special Forces and raid the Infinity Ward offices, and take down militant studio heads!

 

[Brotherofwill]

Well thank you USK, now my money goes to the UK yet again.

Ha, tell you what, I've NEVER bought a PS3 game in Germany - and I own 40 of the things. Not only are games not censored up the arse in Britain, they're also significantly cheaper.

Oh yeah, German voice-overs. Pass. It's not that German is an ugly language or anything, but it's a difficult one. Which means that very few Germans speak it correctly, and none of them are in the movie-/game-dubbing business.

Dude, so true. UK is like the mecca of cheap games. Amazon.co.uk is my best friend.

As for dubbing: It's really jarring once you find out how utterly shit the translations of films and games are, right? I mean there's the occasional good or adequate one, but in general it's laughably bad.