Call of Duty Community Not Misogynistic, Says Sledgehammer Co-Founder

[Lightknight]

I wouldn't know, I hit the group mute button so fast my manboobs jiggle a bit. Used to pride myself on how fast I could mute a lobby until they finally implemented the one button to mute them all option. Some day, I hope to see a permanent mute option rather than having to do it every stinking time during the first game I play.

My wife hasn't mentioned any issues with the community though. She liked those alien invasion games of Ghosts and teamed up with several groups of the COD community for co-op. She never noted any issues and I think she would have.

But I'm guessing people will eventually realize that the scenarios that get reported on aren't the hundreds of times things go well. It'll only be the times where something bad happens.

 

[VladG]

You know, I've been playing the new CoD on PC since it came out (reached level 50 so quite a few matches played) and yet I have not once seen someone be a total prick, or even insult someone else past the usual "camper, hacker, noob". I am fully aware that it happens.. but it seems like a VERY small number of people do that. Most really do seem to be ok.

And yet when you talk about the CoD community all you hear is how awful it is. Is the console ecosystem really that toxic?

 

[Lightknight]

You know, I've been playing the new CoD on PC since it came out (reached level 50 so quite a few matches played) and yet I have not once seen someone be a total prick, or even insult someone else past the usual "camper, hacker, noob". Is the console ecosystem really this bad?

Nope, news only reports on the extremes and people only complain when something actually happens.

If you played a 1,000 games and never had an incident, no one would hear about it. 1 game with incident and suddenly it's worth talking about.

 

[VladG]

You know, I've been playing the new CoD on PC since it came out (reached level 50 so quite a few matches played) and yet I have not once seen someone be a total prick, or even insult someone else past the usual "camper, hacker, noob". Is the console ecosystem really this bad?

Nope, news only reports on the extremes and people only complain when something actually happens.

If you played a 1,000 games and never had an incident, no one would hear about it. 1 game with incident and suddenly it's worth talking about.

I shouldn't be surprised, really. But CoD is such a popular target and all you ever hear about it is how toxic EVERYONE is, I had to ask.

 

[Gorrath]

I'd like to add to this that i personally think that the tiny percent that are toxic are most likely acting the way they act more out of attention-seeking or out of a desire to troll, or just basic sadism, not really out of any legitimate hatred of women. I think they'd shit-talk anything at all if they thought it would upset the people they're trying to upset. If that makes any sense.

I... don't think that makes it any better. Like it doesn't matter if Westboro Baptist legitimately believes that IEDs are god's judgement on US soldiers, or if they're just lawsuit-baiting. It's still putrid.

... at least most of the Christian right doesn't actively try to defend WBC. I mean, silence kinda sucks, but it's better than the backlash that a lot of gamers show whenever someone mentions our crazy fringe.

I think this is an unfair characterization of either the christian or gamer communities response to these issues. Many christians and christian organizations have ourtright condemned WBC. I'm an atheist myself, so I'm not just saying that to defend the christian religious community. But the gaming community is actually on even higher ground than that because most of the condemnation of the toxic gamers in the gaming community comes from other gamers whereas most of the original condemnation of WBC had to come from outsid emedia sources. Gamers have been banging on about the toxic elements of our own culture since online lobbies were a thing.

Much like the WBC and other christians, gamers tend to stress two points. A. the toxic assholes are toxic assholes and B. they don't make up any kind of majority and are simply know because they are loud. Making claim B does not undermine claim A and is not a defense of the toxic element, it is simply a reaction to the idea that the toxic element is somehow a majority or representative of the community at large. It is a perfectly fair point to make.

 

[JarinArenos]

I'd like to add to this that i personally think that the tiny percent that are toxic are most likely acting the way they act more out of attention-seeking or out of a desire to troll, or just basic sadism, not really out of any legitimate hatred of women. I think they'd shit-talk anything at all if they thought it would upset the people they're trying to upset. If that makes any sense.

I... don't think that makes it any better. Like it doesn't matter if Westboro Baptist legitimately believes that IEDs are god's judgement on US soldiers, or if they're just lawsuit-baiting. It's still putrid.

... at least most of the Christian right doesn't actively try to defend WBC. I mean, silence kinda sucks, but it's better than the backlash that a lot of gamers show whenever someone mentions our crazy fringe.

Except people don't say that because Westboro Baptist is putrid all Christians are putrid and are responsible.

More people buy and play CoD every year than the population of Australia a tiny minority are toxic attack them don't just say "you bought CoD so your a woman beater" (get enough of that from moviebob's shows).

I can and do say that the fact that there's no real outcry against them, or that their only counter-protesting is handled by gay rights groups and non-christians, reflects negatively on the US christian community in general. And that's a far FAR smaller fringe. I'm not saying that the average Christian is anything like the WBC, you should note. I'm saying that the silence from the other side gives the impression that more people agree with them than actually do, and emboldens them (not that they likely need it).

The thing that people around here need to do is take a step back and realize there's a universe of difference between "this is problematic" and "this is how all gamers act" because I've seen literally nobody claim the latter, but I see people claiming this is claimed (your comment being a good example) all the time. For instance, as crazy as Bob can get, he's never once called someone a woman beater, or even a bad person of any sort, simply for buying or playing CoD, or any other game.

 

[Gorrath]

I can and do say that the fact that there's no real outcry against them, or that their only counter-protesting is handled by gay rights groups and non-christians...

This claim is factually incorrect. Probably THE most well known counter to WBC's actions came from bikers who would ride around to the funerals and rev their engines to drown WBC out. Most of those bikers were themselves christians. Your claim is based on a false premise. There IS a real outcry against WBC by the christian community. The fact that you seem to be unaware of it does not mean it does not exist.

 

[Verlander]

Never been on it, so can't comment really. You have to ask where the stereotype came from though

 

[OldNewNewOld]

Women getting trashtalk in an online multiplayer game the same way men do is not misogyny! More news at eleven!

mi·sog·y·ny
məˈsäjənē/Submit
noun
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

Women online don't get hate because they are women, most of the times. They get hate because of some other things but the insults are just gender oriented. Same as a guy will be called a ****** a woman will be called ***** or ****. Using a gender specific insult doesn't mean that person hates the gender.

Again, just because someone insults a woman doesn't mean it's misogyny. Hell, most of the times it's nothing even close to that. Being a woman on the internet doesn't give you a free pass from idiotic kids online who keep screaming after losing a competitive match. You want into gaming? You want into competitive gaming? Get used to the trashtalk or get out. Simple as that.

 

[Erttheking]

You know, I've been playing the new CoD on PC since it came out (reached level 50 so quite a few matches played) and yet I have not once seen someone be a total prick, or even insult someone else past the usual "camper, hacker, noob". I am fully aware that it happens.. but it seems like a VERY small number of people do that. Most really do seem to be ok.

And yet when you talk about the CoD community all you hear is how awful it is. Is the console ecosystem really that toxic?

I regularly hear dickwads yelling over microphones when my Dad plays it. I'd have to say yes.

Though frankly my experience in online gaming peroid is something like this.

20% of people are total jerks.

5% of people are cool

75% say nothing.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

*Snorts* Community? COD? Hah!
As Dr Cox so finely put it; "Everyone is bastard coated bastard, with bastard flavour filling." Respect the man.

 

[JarinArenos]

I can and do say that the fact that there's no real outcry against them, or that their only counter-protesting is handled by gay rights groups and non-christians...

This claim is factually incorrect. Probably THE most well known counter to WBC's actions came from bikers who would ride around to the funerals and rev their engines to drown WBC out. Most of those bikers were themselves christians. Your claim is based on a false premise. There IS a real outcry against WBC by the christian community. The fact that you seem to be unaware of it does not mean it does not exist.

Fair enough. And like gamers, Christians come in countless non-stereotypical varieties (i.e. bikers). This is a messy issue and I don't think I'm communicating well, so let me see if I can be clearer. I think what I'm trying to say here though is that the perspective matters. The fact that it's not visible combines with other lesser offenses to give an impression of wider-spread hatred. For instance, I grew up in a strong, loving, Christian household, and yet I now consider myself agnostic, bordering on atheist. This is (or at least started) because I was pushed away from the Church by negative elements far less toxic than WBC. When you're under attack by one element of a community, and nobody is coming to your defense, the smaller slights from the rest of the community start looking pretty hostile too.

I think I have a better way to put it, actually. The biggest argument I see basically boils down to long arguments saying "not all gamers are like that". This is true, and nobody is claiming that. But why is that the argument at all? You know a better way to say that without the conflict, or implied defense of said fringe? "I am a gamer and I think [those actions] are bad." That communicates the exact same thing. Because gamers who aren't the toxic fringe aren't being attacked here. Guess what? Bad people liking some of the same things you like doesn't make you a bad person. And there's no need to defend against an attack that's not being made.

 

[Fangface74]

I'd like to raise a point I've not really seen mentioned anywhere (due to it probably being pithy & pointless)

ALL online gamers have had to deal with douchebaggery at some point or another, this isn't purely a misogynist problem, it's an ass-hole problem.

If you are trying to insult/offend someone, one of the basic rules you follow is you can't share any of the targeted traits the insultee (not a word) has! So when verbally/textually attacking females, the safe route to take (assuming you're male) is a gender based one, because it's highly unlikely you will say something you share common ground with and consequently looking like (more of) an idiot.

Engendered insults aren't misogynistic by default, but simply how basic insults work.

I think to capitalise on this is a mistake.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well if he has stopped with the CoD community is probably like any other game's community, I would be on board. Honestly, the greatest thing the xbox 360 did (and I really wish some pc games would do this too) was to let you disable all voice chat.

Of course, this is also because they brought ubiquity to the voice chat (consoles, at least) in the first place.

 

[AstaresPanda]

No one really use their mics, and when they do the only hate you will get is from your own team if your sucking and fucking up your team or if your pissing someone off on the other team for killing them. Its always just a spew of angry rants. They don't know what gender you are untill you speak. Small group of assholes pissing off or upsetting another small group of easy offended ppls.

 

[Gorrath]

I can and do say that the fact that there's no real outcry against them, or that their only counter-protesting is handled by gay rights groups and non-christians...

This claim is factually incorrect. Probably THE most well known counter to WBC's actions came from bikers who would ride around to the funerals and rev their engines to drown WBC out. Most of those bikers were themselves christians. Your claim is based on a false premise. There IS a real outcry against WBC by the christian community. The fact that you seem to be unaware of it does not mean it does not exist.

Fair enough. And like gamers, Christians come in countless non-stereotypical varieties (i.e. bikers). This is a messy issue and I don't think I'm communicating well, so let me see if I can be clearer. I think what I'm trying to say here though is that the perspective matters. The fact that it's not visible combines with other lesser offenses to give an impression of wider-spread hatred. For instance, I grew up in a strong, loving, Christian household, and yet I now consider myself agnostic, bordering on atheist. This is (or at least started) because I was pushed away from the Church by negative elements far less toxic than WBC. When you're under attack by one element of a community, and nobody is coming to your defense, the smaller slights from the rest of the community start looking pretty hostile too.

I can understand this perspective. I too grew up in a christian household and left the church because of ideological differences. I had problems with the actions of church members and the dogma both. I am now both an atheist and an agnostic (don't believe, don't claim to know). I am a constant critic of religion in general and the philosophy of belief. But I do want to give credit where it is due and so I think it is unfair to characterize groups of people due to slights you and I have both suffered. I totally get where you're coming from here, especially when the presence of dogma reinforces the negative aspects you're dealing with. But still, we should avoid making claims about the lack of action of a group when members of said group have very much been vocal on the issue. YOu seem totally reasonable on that point, which is awesome.

I think I have a better way to put it, actually. The biggest argument I see basically boils down to long arguments saying "not all gamers are like that". This is true, and nobody is claiming that. But why is that the argument at all? You know a better way to say that without the conflict, or implied defense of said fringe? "I am a gamer and I think [those actions] are bad." That communicates the exact same thing. Because gamers who aren't the toxic fringe aren't being attacked here. Guess what? Bad people liking some of the same things you like doesn't make you a bad person. And there's no need to defend against an attack that's not being made.

It's not just people saying "Not all gamers" it's people saying "Not even most gamers." When people claim that a community is "toxic" or the like, this implies that the community, on the whole, behaves a certain way. So when someone replies that the loudest most obnoxious members of a group they are associated with do not represent the community as a whole, they are justified in their response. Some view it as a deflection or a way to avoid talking about the issue, but I don't think it is. No one wants to be associated with assholes so it is very reasonable to want to distance yourself from their actions and defend the group you belong to, especially when the language suggests that the problem really is "the community" and not "this specific douche" or "these few people." I think it is unfair to paint "the community" as toxic (as some do) and then criticize those who defend "the community" or themselves. Loose language begets loose language.

 

[elvor0]

Snip

That's the key word there. Assume. He's assuming that someone said it. And even if someone did, without knowing who or why, he's shooting accusations off into thin air.

The wording in your last statement is rather confusing. A few too many "it"s.

Even so, the interview is led into by the "mysoginy" thing, therefore, while we can't know for certain, it is likely that he was responding to a question in the interview that was related to it. Otherwise, like you say, he's just shooting a defence off into thin air, which begs the question; why? Why would he feel the need to defend them if he wasn't being led into making that quote.

I don't see why the last statement is confusing at all. I stated the title of the article, then used "it" in reference to the title, which you were disputing didn't have "apparently not mysoginistic" in it. I couldn't remove the "its" otherwise the sentence structure wouldn't make sense and I didn't feel putting "the title" was necessary as it should've been pretty obvious what I was referencing with "it".

 

[CaitSeith]

I'd like to know the percentage of female players who have got insulted in CoD, and the ratio of matches with personal insults against those without personal insults.

 

[JarinArenos]

It's not just people saying "Not all gamers" it's people saying "Not even most gamers." When people claim that a community is "toxic" or the like, this implies that the community, on the whole, behaves a certain way. So when someone replies that the loudest most obnoxious members of a group they are associated with do not represent the community as a whole, they are justified in their response. Some view it as a deflection or a way to avoid talking about the issue, but I don't think it is. No one wants to be associated with assholes so it is very reasonable to want to distance yourself from their actions and defend the group you belong to, especially when the language suggests that the problem really is "the community" and not "this specific douche" or "these few people." I think it is unfair to paint "the community" as toxic (as some do) and then criticize those who defend "the community" or themselves. Loose language begets loose language.

The whole discussion of the community being toxic started because this sort of thing was common - like, every-single-online-match common - and nobody was speaking out against it. "Oh it's just trolls" and "just ignore the trash-talk" were the vast majority of the responses to complaints from outsiders. That there? That's deflection. That's avoiding and denying the issue. So the complaints get louder.

Going back to the Christianity issue, "the community" gets painted with a broad brush because the crazy fringe aren't coming up with anything new... they're just shouting a lot of the same things louder and more rudely. Sure, the average Christian wouldn't shout and picket with signs saying "God Hates Fags", but they'll sure as heck vote for a restrictive constitutional marriage amendment, so where's the line drawn? Likewise, only a few gamers will yell gendered slurs and profanity, but how many will fight against having female characters in games? It starts looking the same when you're the one under attack.