JarinArenos said:
Alright. My experience tended to be very different playing CoD/Battlefield on any server that wasn't privately moderated, though. It's most of why I haven't played CoD since MW1. I do disagree that ignoring problems is the way to deal with them, even on the internet. Societal shame is a powerful tool against all but the most... call them "problematic" players. Why is it okay to shout "slut" and "c**t" and the like, when you'd almost never hear someone use racist slurs in the same context? We've made it completely socially unacceptable to do so. The internet, for all its functional anonymity, isn't some other dimension. Those are still actual people at those keyboards.
This might be another case of differences in experience, but I do and did see racial slurs used in exactly the same context. Having that same loud-mouthed teen shouting the N word into the mic didn't happen significantly less than someone calling someone a slut or any other needlessly foul/disgusting name. The whole reason people engage in the kind of behavior online when they wouldn't do it in real life is because there is a much smaller fear of real repercussion. Anonymous people making asses of themselves is done specifically because the internet is vastly different than real life social interaction. It does not excuse the behavior but it does make dealing with the perpetrator much more difficult.
This lack of consequence is well known to the offender, which is exactly why they engage in the behavior in the first place. Societal shame works because a person becomes equated with their actions. When no one knows who you are, that shame has a hell of a lot less, if any, impact. Ignoring the person is only part of what you do in the current state of affairs. You also report them. But getting into some shouting match with them over their bad behavior does not help anyone in the situation. But regardless of which method you think is more effective, claiming that people who say "Don't feed the trolls" either don't care or are trying to deflect instead of dealing with the situation is frankly, a false assumption. Basically you'd be arguing that because they think reporting and ignoring an abusive user is a better alternative to "shaming" that user, they are somehow being disingenuous when they claim to be against the behavior, that they are trying to deny/deflect. That would be unfair of you to make that assertion.
And I'm arguing that they're differences of scale, not type. Are WBC worse? Absolutely. No sane person would argue otherwise. I'm saying that the lesser offenses reinforce and embolden those making the greater. Are perfectly decent people doing this? Sure. But "perfectly decent people" can still thoughtlessly cause harm... and there's far more of them to do so.
It's not a difference of scale, it is a totally different argument. "God hates Fags" and "I think the biblical interpretation of marriage is the one our society should reflect" are not at all, in any way, equivalent statements separated only by degrees. Claiming they are the same argument is totally illogical. I don't agree with either statement, but I would be a damned fool to pretend they are the same argument. This isn't a separation of degrees at all, it is a completely different argument that deals with a completely different issue. I honestly can't see how you think the two are in any way merely the same argument separated by degrees.
Again, I agree that they're different. But it's again the whole picture that matters. Game development doesn't exist in a vaccum (... arguments about Nintendo aside), the culture of both gamers and development studios colors absolutely everything. The issue isn't the mere existence of sexualized women in games, or the existence (or even majority) of male protagonists... it's the overwhelming prevalence of it, and the reasons behind it.
Taking "The whole picture" into consideration does not grant one a license to commit logical fallacies. We could get into the prevalence of certain depictions of male and female characters and talk about why those decisions are made. Nothing in that hypothetical discussion allows one to say that someone arguing that female depictions in games don't equal an ethical problem are in any way related to someone yelling sexist slurs into their mic in a CoD lobby. What's more, trying to lump the two together IS actually a deflection of the arguments. Afterall, you don't need to address the arguments in said hypothetical discussion if you can simply get people to buy into the idea that the slur spouting jackass and the guy with the point to make are somehow only separated by degrees. They aren't separated by degrees, and trying to force them under the same umbrella by appealing to "the big picture" is a total fallacy.
But I'm drifting into #GG territory and I'd like to pull back to the topic at hand. You said that one of the most public oppositions to WBC was some christian bikers drowning them out. Nobody got on the bikers' case about opposing a fringe, I assume? Nobody came after them saying "not all Christians"? I bloody know "not all gamers". I've been gaming since I got my first computer 25 years ago. Nearly every friend I have is a gamer. My first deathmatch was a hacked version of "snake" that allowed 4 players. We played DOOM in the school computer lab nearly every day in high school. I played Tribes competitively in college. I owned the skies in Battlefield: Desert Combat. I played Planetside and still play Planetside 2 - I'm not trying to brag here, there's nothing unique or impressive about any of that, I'm trying to illustrate that I've been part of the FPS and gamer community my whole life, I'm not some outsider saying that it's all terrible. But I want to make a difference in my community. I want to change the tone. If you don't want to? That's fine. You're not the one causing trouble, right? I'm just getting tired of decent people making life harder for people trying to make things better. Does that make sense? Or am I just rambling now?
You make internal sense here yes, and believe it or not I am totally, 100% on your side when it comes to wanting to see change. However, I disagree with a lot of what people on "both sides" (this is in quotes because I know damned well there isn't just two) have to say on the matter. I very much want change in both the community, in games in general, in the way AAA publishers work, in the limited types of games we get, the stories that get told and the way characters are portrayed. I am totally on the progress train here. But, just as I, the atheist, must caution my fellow atheists against using bad arguments when arguing against religious folks, I too must caution my fellow progressive when they do the same. The use of fallacious reasoning does not help the cause, it hinders it.
You talk about your experiences here, which is good, because in a lot of these discussions we only have anecdotes to show why we feel the way we do. My experience is no greater than your own. It's not about being special here, it's about letting one another know where we're coming from; it's useful and I thank you for sharing. And as for the bikers and WBC and such, there were tons of Christians saying "Not all Christians" and no one in the media or in Christianity were giving those people shit for making it clear that they didn't share WBC's beliefs.
For those Christians, the "Not us" wasn't a deflection, it was simply a clarification that their own beliefs were not that of WBC and that they condemned what WBC was doing. Not a soul that I ever saw came down on Christians for doing that because it was a damned fair point for them to make, and it is a damned fair point for gamers to make too, especially when you've got people who like to lump them and their arguments together and pretend like it's all the same. As I argued above, this isn't merely "Not all gamers" this is "Not even most gamers." Everyone reasonable knows the first is true but a fair few too many think the second isn't.
I appreciate your time and this discussion by the way. We may never se eye-to-eye on this, but I do get you and I do get where you're coming from. Your intent is obviously a good one and that alone is worth praise even if we're unable to convince one another of the finer points.
