Call of Duty Community Not Misogynistic, Says Sledgehammer Co-Founder

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Creator002

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Yep. Because I didn't get called a "no life ****** that jerks off over every kill"[footnote]Full quote: "Oh, my God. Shut the fuck up you no life ******. What do you do? Jerk off after every kill or something?[/footnote] last night because I got excited over my highest score so far in Advanced Warfare. (22 kills, 4 deaths).
I mean, what a stranger on another continent says doesn't affect me, but all I said was (to my friend in the same room) "holy shit! That's my fuckin' best yet."

EDIT - Woops. The misogyny-centric theme completely went over my head. I thought it was just general vitriol.
 

wulf3n

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Phasmal said:
Yes, I know they're not outnumbered.

I know what you mean about being able to choose servers that are good for you, like when I used to play things like TTT on Garry'sMod, I had a few servers marked as `safe` for voice chat, with good admins. I certainly wouldn't go randomly into any server.

Still, these are the systems they're making us use now, so I feel like they are responsible for dealing with the shit that comes with it. I don't think anybody gains anything by sticking our collective heads in the sand about it.
Sure.

I agree that there's a lot that can still be done to create safer gaming spaces for all, it's just disappointing that not only are the devs not providing new measures to deal with the issue, they've taken the tools we used to have.
 

BarkBarker

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I do think some people will latch onto the idea that they are female gamers wholeheartedly but I also believe that when you wanna make someone feel bad and insult them, you go off of observations and hit them where it hurts. No I don't think being a virgin is a big deal, but I know it matters to you. You wanna inflict hurt cos you are angry or stressed or an ass you go for the super effective attacks.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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BiH-Kira said:
You want into gaming? You want into competitive gaming? Get used to the trashtalk or get out. Simple as that.
In most competitive spaces there are rules and codes of conduct, which is why in my opinion dedicated servers are a better choice than matchmaking because if you want a space where you run around with a tome of the profane on your lap to help articulate your anger then power to you: players who don't want the words '****', '******', '******' etc streamed directly into their ears while trying to use voicechat for it's intended function can go to spaces that are more tightly moderated.
 

Dragonbums

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Christ this whole thread is an embarrassment. It's fucking surreal how the same in the same environment we parody CoD as toxic shit lords we also all collectively defend said CoD community if it means going against the "SJW's.


This is the same community where a dev almost immediately got threatened and doxxed over changing the firing rate of a virtual gun.
 

PDugna

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Dragonbums said:
Christ this whole thread is an embarrassment. It's fucking surreal how the same in the same environment we parody CoD as toxic shit lords we also all collectively defend said CoD community if it means going against the "SJW's.


This is the same community where a dev almost immediately got threatened and doxxed over changing the firing rate of a virtual gun.
No in both cases it's pointing out a minority acting like assholes and using them to show that humanity has assholes and you will never remove them. Most people here are not protecting the minority they're protecting the majority.
 

ryukage_sama

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To say that a room isn't full of assholes is different from claiming that there are zero assholes in the room. I understand that the majority of gamers don't shout slurs and threaten (sexual) violence towards other players. The problem is the the many that make up the minority do so and get away with it. In normal public events, someone who goes from person to person yelling, cursing and threatening each person in the room, that person would get kicked out. Allowing and enabling that asshole to treat other people that way makes such events toxic, regardless whether the rest of the attendees are friendly. If I had no way to avoid being cursed at every day on the metro, I wouldn't be taking it to work every day.

I can't speak to the proportion of matches that have such offenders. Unfortunately, it takes more than simply having a non-asshole majority to make a community a positive place to live. It's a matter of how much of the community feels that they have been a victim of such harassment.
 

Dragonbums

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PDugna said:
Dragonbums said:
Christ this whole thread is an embarrassment. It's fucking surreal how the same in the same environment we parody CoD as toxic shit lords we also all collectively defend said CoD community if it means going against the "SJW's.


This is the same community where a dev almost immediately got threatened and doxxed over changing the firing rate of a virtual gun.
No in both cases it's pointing out a minority acting like assholes and using them to show that humanity has assholes and you will never remove them. Most people here are not protecting the minority they're protecting the majority.
The problem is that it doesn't matter what percentage of the CoD community are assholes. If most of the normal people are on mute and the only ones on chat are predominately fuckbags that would call a black person (or supposed black person) a ****** at first chance, don't be surprised when black people talk about how the only people they tend to deal with online are racists. Because as far as they are concerned a good 30% of their online chat involves those people.

Nobody things about the silent majority or the fact that they are on mute. Because as far they are concerned, it's the jerks that are online in chat.

So you guys can defend the majority till the cows come home, But the reality is that if the only people on chat are mainly assholes, don't get mad when people say that this community is full of assholes.
 

Grant Stackhouse

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I'm not one for heavy competition, so I've only occasionally played CoD online. Still, I've noticed that while there will be some name-calling, it doesn't typically interfere with the game. I think games are a relatively harmless venue to use hateful language, since a virtual warzone is an area where gender, race and sexual orientation are completely irrelevant. Thus, by overuse of such language where it doesn't matter, we rob the language of some of its significance.

Allow me to go further into detail:
Think of the word "Bastard". Long ago, it held heavy weight in society. It meant that you were born out of wedlock, and if you were a bastard, you were generally condemned to a crappy life. There were laws in place that kept bastards from working certain jobs or holding positions of power. Further, you would have great trouble marrying anyone with dignity, since their families would not approve of their daughter marrying you. To be called a bastard also implied that your mother was a woman of loose morals, essentially a slut or a prostitute, which by family association, relegated you to the lowest rungs of society.
Over time, society began to change. More people were born out of wedlock, and laws were gradually enacted to give bastard citizens equal rights to legitimate citizens. All the while, the word "bastard" began to be thrown around more casually - First as an insult to provoke fights, then later as a friendly barb to throw at friends and genial competition. In its current state "bastard" is hardly even considered a curse word any more, though it is still thrown around quite often.

Now, a lot of what I just explained is practically ancient history, so clearly I did not live through it. Thus, I have made a few suppositions. Primarily, I believe that the increased use of the word "bastard", in a world that no longer considered it important to one's status, actually contributed to people caring less about whether or not someone was actually a bastard.

If I were to project this same supposition onto our current topic of the use of misogynistic, racist, or otherwise bigoted language in online gaming, then I believe that it may eventually be helpful to us as a society. Despite what may seem like an increase in hateful speech, much of that speech is made without context or knowledge of whether or not it is even relevant to the person being spoken to. In other words, the insults may be hateful, but the intent behind them is often indifferent.

For example, I have a fairly excitable friend who is prone to saying the "N" word at people who kill him in online matches - quite angrily. Obviously, he can't be 100 percent certain of their race, and I don't think it matters to him anyhow, since he is quite social with many different races in real life. Further, despite using that word to express his anger at being beaten, he has never once shown true racist hatred in real life. By that, I mean that he has never ranted to me that "these online games are being ruined by too many black people" or anything like that. Thus, I concluded that his choice to use racial slurs in online matches is completely context free. The insult, originally used to demean black people by white people who genuinely hated them and wished them harm, is being thrown around by my friend as just another toothless insult, much like "bastard" is thrown around in modern society.

In summary, I believe that the careless and thoughtless use of hateful language, in a context where it doesn't really hold any bearing, can actually reduce the impact of that language by robbing it of the meaning that made it hurtful in the first place. While I'm not saying that we should encourage such language, I think it's worth considering that even this dark cloud may have a silver lining.
 

Loonyyy

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There's a serious problem with the community, and it comes down to the community rarely being given the tools to deal with them.

It's obtuse enough reporting the morons who use dicks and swastikas for emblems(Competitor Battlefield does it even worse). But the series has stripped out features like dedicated servers over time (With some half-assessed compromises with regards to private servers and dedicated servers) and worse, Ranked dedicated servers, which don't allow the community to police itself. I used to play with a clan, I met the guys playing on their server, and they recruited me. Their server was lots of fun, and since it had moderation, hackers, and morons who came there to troll, got banned. Additionally, playing pubs with a clan, or playing pugs within a roster, where most of the members have voice chat, and actual rules are enforced, is always more fun that just playing with randoms. When you're on a teamspeak you've collectively set up and funded, on a server that you work on together, there's a greater sense of community, and there's less of the shitlordery. Additionally, the old CoD 4 servers weren't as bad as a random Modern Warfare 2 match, because the host's had rules, and they could ban people. It's the same with Counter Strike Source, or the old Day of Defeat community. These things aren't perfect, by any stretch (WAD was infamous in the Australian DoD scene for being terrible. Their main admin, an odious man named "Oldfart" would spend matches spitting and screaming obscenities into his microphone until someone said "****". Then it was a ban for the "c-bomb"), but they're a damn sight better than nothing, and at least give players some options for avoiding this shit, or dealing with it.

A big chunk of players don't talk at all, or only use text, or don't engage in middle school smack talk. They really shouldn't worry, no-one is complaining about them. What people are complaining about is the assholes who ruin it for everyone, and that goes especially for the people who aren't talking (Which is me in 99% of pubs). They spend their games ranting and raving, whether it's full on tirades at people over the game, or over trivial shit, or starting drama and fights, or just the standard slurs about homosexuals, minorities, women, and your mother (But she's horrible). Even if someone was mistaken and thought you were being a sexist asshole, and they wanted to take your comms away, you're not using them anyway. That's what makes it silent. If people are at least given the tools to deal with this shit, then they can have a fighting chance at dealing with it, but that doesn't happen because people don't think there's a problem. When the only option for dealing with these jerks is to troll them back, that's seriously weak effort on the part of the designer. The only option for most of the silent types who have a problem with this (Which I'd estimate is more than most, and apparently, so would the Escapist, suprisingly), is to make themselves a target as well, and that's rare. People don't go on there to listen to abuse, but they also don't go on there to have the abuse targetted at them specifically, so they don't usually bother.

Some of the improvements MOBAs have made in dealing with their (Often vile, like many competitive FPSes) communities are interesting. Tracking the behaviour of individuals, providing incentives for playing well, and suggestions like blocking microphone by default for players who are regularly muted, or their text, are interesting suggestions. But it won't change until someone important thinks there's a problem worth fixing.
 

Hero in a half shell

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UberPubert said:
I really don't get where the reputation for most online games having bad communities comes from

On smaller, team-based games like MOBAs you'll definitely catch some flak from overcompetitive players taking their frustrations out on people they perceive to be losing them the match, but on completely random arena shooters like CoD? Nobody cares because the outcome of the match really isn't that important, it's over in ~10 minutes and your performance isn't going to be hindered by your team.

My personal experience with Cod4 MW, World at War, Cod MW2, and Black Ops 1 is...silence. Most people I encountered didn't even have their mics plugged in as far as I could tell, much less insulting other people.
I have spent probably several hundred hours on COD, Battlefield, Red Orchestra, Team Fortress multiplayer, and have only ever heard 1 instance of mic crap talk in game. I heard a few instances of people hollering in the lobby, but that generally consisted of someone playing music into the mic and everyone else shouting abuse at the music.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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*shrugs* if you're a woman, assholes are going to latch onto that instead of using the "standard" insults they save for the rest of the dudebros, regardless of whether they're genuinely misogynistic or just because it's a better way to provoke a reaction.

Maybe the COD community really does hate women, I don't know, I don't play COD. But from my experience with both real and online life, bullies and jerks will just use labels and slurs that apply to their victim whether or not they actually have an issue with that group, simply because it's more effective than using generic insults.

As has been said by someone else, though, I don't think it really matters whether people actually have a problem with women playing games, or whether they just know specifically saying "go back to the kitchen" is more likely to be hurtful. Either way, it's unacceptable behavior, regardless of whether you actually believe the nonsense you're spouting.
 

Gorrath

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Dragonbums said:
PDugna said:
Dragonbums said:
Christ this whole thread is an embarrassment. It's fucking surreal how the same in the same environment we parody CoD as toxic shit lords we also all collectively defend said CoD community if it means going against the "SJW's.


This is the same community where a dev almost immediately got threatened and doxxed over changing the firing rate of a virtual gun.
No in both cases it's pointing out a minority acting like assholes and using them to show that humanity has assholes and you will never remove them. Most people here are not protecting the minority they're protecting the majority.
The problem is that it doesn't matter what percentage of the CoD community are assholes. If most of the normal people are on mute and the only ones on chat are predominately fuckbags that would call a black person (or supposed black person) a ****** at first chance, don't be surprised when black people talk about how the only people they tend to deal with online are racists. Because as far as they are concerned a good 30% of their online chat involves those people.

Nobody things about the silent majority or the fact that they are on mute. Because as far they are concerned, it's the jerks that are online in chat.

So you guys can defend the majority till the cows come home, But the reality is that if the only people on chat are mainly assholes, don't get mad when people say that this community is full of assholes.
I will get mad, freely, because it is totally wrong. You are making an argument here that is not acceptable at all. Allow me to demonstrate:

"The problem is it doesn't matter what percentage of black people are actually criminals, if I don't have personal experience with them and have only dealt with black people who have robbed me then don't be surprised when I talk about the only black people I deal with tend to be criminals. Because as far as I'm concerned, a good XX% of black people are criminals."

It's a bullshit argument used to excuse bigotry and does not become a good or fair argument just by changing the context.

The fact that someone doesn't think about the "silent majority" is their own problem and not a license to paint people unfairly. I can defend the majority until cows come home because to engage in the sort of fallacy above is completely unfair. Being the victim of anything does not give one license to engage in fallacious reasoning and deride people uncontested.