Can Americans Make Anime?
- Thread starter Chris OBrien
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considering all the western cartoons that have been taking influence from anime, I'd have to say yes (now I'm just waiting for when writers start making anime-influenced novels and comics more often). I really get sick of people using "anime" as an insult as quite a few people use it to denote cartoons from Japan as a lesser artistic form; videogame crowds are particularly guilty of this, unaware that there are a BAJILLION styles of what is considered an "anime" artistic style.
i watch both cartoons and anime, anime is far better when it comes to quality of the art style. when it comes to the full length movies its not much of a difference other then the style of story being told. when it comes to series like avatar and korra the difference is almost nonexistent
It isn't a style.
It isn't a medium.
If it isn't from Japan, it isn't anime.
Anime doesn't mean it has a certain kind of plot or a certain artistic style, because there are shows from Japan that go against those grains since anime first came about. If you believe a cartoon to be quality, then just call it a quality cartoon. You don't have to needlessly rename Western cartoons "anime" just because you can't grasp the idea that a Western cartoon can do just as well as Japan can in the fields that you like in Japan's stuff. Just because you're playing a guitar riff from a famous rock song on a piano, doesn't mean you now have to call the piano a guitar.
You wanna make food comparisons? Here's a good one.
If you are from New York, go to Chicago, and order a pizza, you're most likely going to get a deep dish pizza. Why? Because that's what the most common and popular type of pizza is in Chicago. However, not ALL pizza made in Chicago is deep dish. And not all chefs or patrons who enjoy deep-dish pizza have any relation to the city of Chicago. You can eat deep dish style pizza without even knowing it's the popular style in Chicago. Just because it's the common style, doesn't mean that anyone doing something similar is deliberately imitating it and therefore has to classify itself as thus.
All of those things that you said were in Korra about characterization and whatnot? Those don't always exist in anime, but they also exist in plenty of other animated works from all across the world.
Any cartoon from Japan can be whatever it wants to be and still be a Japanese cartoon.
So why is it that when a non-Japanese cartoon has certain elements found fairly often in anime, all of a sudden it has to be a Japanese cartoon?
It isn't a medium.
If it isn't from Japan, it isn't anime.
Anime doesn't mean it has a certain kind of plot or a certain artistic style, because there are shows from Japan that go against those grains since anime first came about. If you believe a cartoon to be quality, then just call it a quality cartoon. You don't have to needlessly rename Western cartoons "anime" just because you can't grasp the idea that a Western cartoon can do just as well as Japan can in the fields that you like in Japan's stuff. Just because you're playing a guitar riff from a famous rock song on a piano, doesn't mean you now have to call the piano a guitar.
You wanna make food comparisons? Here's a good one.
If you are from New York, go to Chicago, and order a pizza, you're most likely going to get a deep dish pizza. Why? Because that's what the most common and popular type of pizza is in Chicago. However, not ALL pizza made in Chicago is deep dish. And not all chefs or patrons who enjoy deep-dish pizza have any relation to the city of Chicago. You can eat deep dish style pizza without even knowing it's the popular style in Chicago. Just because it's the common style, doesn't mean that anyone doing something similar is deliberately imitating it and therefore has to classify itself as thus.
All of those things that you said were in Korra about characterization and whatnot? Those don't always exist in anime, but they also exist in plenty of other animated works from all across the world.
Any cartoon from Japan can be whatever it wants to be and still be a Japanese cartoon.
So why is it that when a non-Japanese cartoon has certain elements found fairly often in anime, all of a sudden it has to be a Japanese cartoon?
Now lets debate what makes a game a RPG!
On topic:
My problem is sometimes this hints at the anime label adding a more mature or higher quality rating to animation. Good animation comes out in other Countries too.
To which I reply: Pixar.
But we don't go around saying, hey, this is good, we should call it Pixar!
On topic:
My problem is sometimes this hints at the anime label adding a more mature or higher quality rating to animation. Good animation comes out in other Countries too.
To which I reply: Pixar.
But we don't go around saying, hey, this is good, we should call it Pixar!
That's Amerime & it will always be considered just that. Amerimes, Amerimangas, & Canadimes always use a piss poor parody art style of animation styles & cliches that are decades old in Japan, & they try to cram in as much of that cliche as they can; a example of trying too hard would be Rod Espinoza's New Alice in Wonderland. They try to emulate something they're not, the force is obvious, it doesn't feel natural.Carlos Storm said:
The one acception is an Amerimanga called Bizenghast. It was published through Tokyopop, the art is unique, & Marty A LeGrow admitted she wasn't trying to make it manga-like. Another example of a fail would be Return to Labyrinth. It had it's moments, the art was pretty bad, but the writer pulled a "well it's a manga, I'd better stick some Japanese people in it" as well as prioritizing a manga-like story over something that felt like it was a sequel to a Jim Henson movie. & creating a whole cast of new characters & giving Sarah & Jareth a backseat felt like what Micheal Bay did to Transformers.
Americans can't make anime. This is because the definition of anime is "cartoons from Japan."
That is the ONLY logical reason why Cowboy BeBop, Bleach, Dragon Ball Z, Girls Bravo and Tenchi can all fall under "anime." The only thing they have in common is that they are all cartoons, all made in Japan.
This ISN'T a bad thing. This isn't even the problem.
The PROBLEM is people acting like AMERICAN cartoons are somehow inferior to Japanese ones. Which is silly. The quality of a product is defined BY THE PRODUCT, not its medium, or place of construction, or even the labels we assign to them.
Ultimately, I kind of agree with the heart of the article, but it is making the wrong argument. The problem isn't one of labeling, the problem is people thinking cartoons = bad.
There's good cartoons. There's bad cartoons. Just like there's good anime and bad anime. Legend of Korra is a good cartoon, REGARDLESS of its label. And not watching it because of the label is idiotic.
That is the ONLY logical reason why Cowboy BeBop, Bleach, Dragon Ball Z, Girls Bravo and Tenchi can all fall under "anime." The only thing they have in common is that they are all cartoons, all made in Japan.
This ISN'T a bad thing. This isn't even the problem.
The PROBLEM is people acting like AMERICAN cartoons are somehow inferior to Japanese ones. Which is silly. The quality of a product is defined BY THE PRODUCT, not its medium, or place of construction, or even the labels we assign to them.
Ultimately, I kind of agree with the heart of the article, but it is making the wrong argument. The problem isn't one of labeling, the problem is people thinking cartoons = bad.
There's good cartoons. There's bad cartoons. Just like there's good anime and bad anime. Legend of Korra is a good cartoon, REGARDLESS of its label. And not watching it because of the label is idiotic.
AND an very well written villain with believable and tragic motivations.SAMAS said:
I was just surprised how much I enjoyed Wakfu in general. Even though it borrows "anime styles" I find it's look to be very unique and distinctive. The animation is buttery smooth and it's really gorgeous to watch.
I do have some issues with the show;
1) Season 2 seemed unfocused and even unnecessary compared to season 1.
2) Adamai looks ridiculous as he does hideous and is four times more annoying.
This is labeled as Anime.
Despite the fact that it is heavily influenced by this in tone and art style
And this is labeled as an Anime
But this isn't. Despite it sharing more traits with what is usually called "Anime"
Yes and even this is labeled as an Anime despite the fact that the show looks nothing like other Anime in style
And what is this? A Disney cartoon?
Nope that is the first Anime film.
So will people stop saying "Anime is all about the art style". NO IT FREAKING ISN'T! Because the art style can vary widely from show to show. The only way Anime works as a definition is as Animation from Japan. BUT, we already have a word for that called Japanimation. So stop using Anime to refer to a whole variety of stuff that shouldn't be put together.
Despite the fact that it is heavily influenced by this in tone and art style
And this is labeled as an Anime
But this isn't. Despite it sharing more traits with what is usually called "Anime"
Yes and even this is labeled as an Anime despite the fact that the show looks nothing like other Anime in style
And what is this? A Disney cartoon?
Nope that is the first Anime film.
So will people stop saying "Anime is all about the art style". NO IT FREAKING ISN'T! Because the art style can vary widely from show to show. The only way Anime works as a definition is as Animation from Japan. BUT, we already have a word for that called Japanimation. So stop using Anime to refer to a whole variety of stuff that shouldn't be put together.
I'm of the opinion that Americans already have a word for their animation, "Cartoon" and Japanese cartoons are called "Anime"
I'll stick to the "If it's not from Japan, it's not anime" belief based on the above.
Also, Anime is not an artistic style of drawing, because it varies from near realistic to clearly drawn on toilet paper and meant to wipe one's ass.
Edit:
I'll stick to the "If it's not from Japan, it's not anime" belief based on the above.
Also, Anime is not an artistic style of drawing, because it varies from near realistic to clearly drawn on toilet paper and meant to wipe one's ass.
Edit:
Beat me to it.Frozengale said:
Yes I do realise my statement on Jack reinforces his statement. My passing jab was merely centered at the part where he pretty much stated he didn't care about knowing anything about the product so long as it got him drunk - or words to the affect.Bigeyez said:
Once you drop stupid arguments that can't work their heads around the distinction between a pedantic argument of locality and just the style the reason why the US doesn't make anime falls into two reasons.
1: Marketing.
More than anything else Americans don't really accept, or rather, no one up top has ever decided that cartoons can be anything beyond children's shows and comedy. At best what you see is a show or movie that hits the audience at a lot of different levels and says a lot of different things to different people. EG: Pixar movies, Avatar: Legend of Korra. But even a show as popular as Avatar only got booked for a single season, and even Pixar is falling into the meta-motions of a creatively tapped studio.
2: The fan base.
Anime's its own worst enemy. Outside of Japan most of the folks who actually watch anime do so over the internet through free streaming sites, and even if everyone went through legal channels it still wouldn't really put food on the proverbial table. Folks really take it for granted that classics like Cowboy Beebop and even the more spectacle driven shows like Evangellion and FLCL were somewhere in between genius and accident. Beebop was supposed to be a kid's show that ended up in airing limbo while the network tried to figure out how the hell they were supposed to pitch it. Evangellion was a censorship nightmare, and it's director had to go on prosac. Not so much in the case of Eva, but for Beebop the only reason it really grew beyond small cult classic is simply because of foreign interest. And you see it elsewhere- Big O and Ghost in the Shell : SAC only lasted as long as they did because of Adult Swim.
1: Marketing.
More than anything else Americans don't really accept, or rather, no one up top has ever decided that cartoons can be anything beyond children's shows and comedy. At best what you see is a show or movie that hits the audience at a lot of different levels and says a lot of different things to different people. EG: Pixar movies, Avatar: Legend of Korra. But even a show as popular as Avatar only got booked for a single season, and even Pixar is falling into the meta-motions of a creatively tapped studio.
2: The fan base.
Anime's its own worst enemy. Outside of Japan most of the folks who actually watch anime do so over the internet through free streaming sites, and even if everyone went through legal channels it still wouldn't really put food on the proverbial table. Folks really take it for granted that classics like Cowboy Beebop and even the more spectacle driven shows like Evangellion and FLCL were somewhere in between genius and accident. Beebop was supposed to be a kid's show that ended up in airing limbo while the network tried to figure out how the hell they were supposed to pitch it. Evangellion was a censorship nightmare, and it's director had to go on prosac. Not so much in the case of Eva, but for Beebop the only reason it really grew beyond small cult classic is simply because of foreign interest. And you see it elsewhere- Big O and Ghost in the Shell : SAC only lasted as long as they did because of Adult Swim.
(This is a subjective text based on my relation with so called "animes" and might be out of context to some degree; it's 3:15am, sorry)
What we should ask ourselves is : Is it a good SHOW? or a bad SHOW?
Avatar - The last airbender was an epic show. Enjoyed the hell out of it. BTW <3 TOPH! Best Character. But I digress.
Legend of Korra was a really, really good show. Animation was great, voices: fantastic. Story Ark : It was interesting because it had similarities with what is going on IRL.
Also, side-note: they had me at steampunk.
Of course, It missed out on some character-related aspects, the Ending was indeed rushed ; I was expecting a kind of "To be Continued" ending with Amon still the main villain for the 2nd Season. I guess after a three season fight against the Fire Nation, A one season story ark kinda felt poor to me.
But they were both great, great SHOWS.
They were better, in some respect, than some more "traditional" cartoon(blasphemy, he didn't use the correct word).
Perfect example : Naruto ; which drags on and on and on. I've been watching it regulary. But every now and then I had to skip ahead, because the narration was just excruciating. Episodes of recalls, flashbacks, where there is no character development, no fight, no nothing. Just stuff that I've seen seasons ago. Or the character meets his opponents "du jour" and proceed to get freezed just before the fight. "Oh you wanted a fight today? Sorry, you can't have that. Here take our recycled animations with fancy filters on it.That'll do it." If I have to skip episodes of a show, maybe that's an indication that there is something wrong.
(I have given up on this cartoon)
Bleach had also problems in how it managed it's timeline. There were complete story arks that I skipped simply because they weren't relevant of the main storyline(and of my interest). But they were easy skips and I could carry on with my viewing without missing important stuff.
I realize these two are heavily commercialized "animes". So there had to be fillers every once in a while. But still annoying.
But, except if I missed any, Legend of Korra AND Avatar didn't suffer this cheap filler syndrome, even if it is fairly commecialized. I felt like there was structure behind all of it. If it ever had flashback. It was because we didn't knew these details. (Tarrlock's relation to Amon, Aang's life with the monks)It had purpose. At the end of an episode, the fight was done. The end of an episode brought some sort of closure. Complete opposite of other Animes for reasons explained earlier.
My point is: Anime doesn't mean Quality; Defenders of "anime's style and culture" should broaden their points of view and try enjoying japan inspired western cartoons simply because they are good shows.
(This is the best i can do in english to stand my position on the subject discussed. It probably went all sort of directions but i'm sure it is a good piece of opinion nonetheless.)
What we should ask ourselves is : Is it a good SHOW? or a bad SHOW?
Avatar - The last airbender was an epic show. Enjoyed the hell out of it. BTW <3 TOPH! Best Character. But I digress.
Legend of Korra was a really, really good show. Animation was great, voices: fantastic. Story Ark : It was interesting because it had similarities with what is going on IRL.
Also, side-note: they had me at steampunk.
Of course, It missed out on some character-related aspects, the Ending was indeed rushed ; I was expecting a kind of "To be Continued" ending with Amon still the main villain for the 2nd Season. I guess after a three season fight against the Fire Nation, A one season story ark kinda felt poor to me.
But they were both great, great SHOWS.
They were better, in some respect, than some more "traditional" cartoon(blasphemy, he didn't use the correct word).
Perfect example : Naruto ; which drags on and on and on. I've been watching it regulary. But every now and then I had to skip ahead, because the narration was just excruciating. Episodes of recalls, flashbacks, where there is no character development, no fight, no nothing. Just stuff that I've seen seasons ago. Or the character meets his opponents "du jour" and proceed to get freezed just before the fight. "Oh you wanted a fight today? Sorry, you can't have that. Here take our recycled animations with fancy filters on it.That'll do it." If I have to skip episodes of a show, maybe that's an indication that there is something wrong.
(I have given up on this cartoon)
Bleach had also problems in how it managed it's timeline. There were complete story arks that I skipped simply because they weren't relevant of the main storyline(and of my interest). But they were easy skips and I could carry on with my viewing without missing important stuff.
I realize these two are heavily commercialized "animes". So there had to be fillers every once in a while. But still annoying.
But, except if I missed any, Legend of Korra AND Avatar didn't suffer this cheap filler syndrome, even if it is fairly commecialized. I felt like there was structure behind all of it. If it ever had flashback. It was because we didn't knew these details. (Tarrlock's relation to Amon, Aang's life with the monks)It had purpose. At the end of an episode, the fight was done. The end of an episode brought some sort of closure. Complete opposite of other Animes for reasons explained earlier.
My point is: Anime doesn't mean Quality; Defenders of "anime's style and culture" should broaden their points of view and try enjoying japan inspired western cartoons simply because they are good shows.
(This is the best i can do in english to stand my position on the subject discussed. It probably went all sort of directions but i'm sure it is a good piece of opinion nonetheless.)
While I'm all for descriptive linguistics, and not being anal about etimologies, this is one of the cases where you REALLY shouldn't change a definition based on pop-culture alone.him over there said:
Pop-culture can be wrong, too. While the majority of PEOPLE in general would look at Panty & Stocking and say that it's not an anime, the majority of people WHO WATCHED Panty & Stocking are anime fans who watched it as an anime, discussed it on anime fansites, and catergorized it together with the rest of the Fall 2010 anime season.
Those masses who use "anime" interchargibly with their crude stereotypes of it's supposedly typical elements, are no different from those who use "handheld console" and "nintendo" interchargibly, those who call Google.com a browser, or those who call Europa Universalis a turn-based strategy.
Even if they are the majority, they can also be dead wrong, as long as there is also a more informed group with a precise, reasonable definition, who know what they are talking about.