Can Americans Make Anime?

Murlin

I came here to laugh at you
Jul 15, 2009
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The question I'd like to ask is: Why is this of such importance? What would being 'allowed' to call western animated TV Anime add that isn't already there?
Unless you're trying to prove tu purists that everything can be Anime, but that seems like bust a useless and a lost cause. French wine connoisseurs will never admit that other countries could make good wine and people settled in the belief that only Japan can make Anime probably won't budge easily either.

I get the feeling from this article that 'earning' the right to the Anime label is seen like some ultimate goal to achieve, a turning point wherein international barriers in an entertainment form would fall apart?

The problem I see is merely this: the term Anime is a hollow, interchangeable word, if you say "Japanese animation" or "Japanese animated series" people will understand just as well what you have in mind. Like all words it was given this meaning of "animation produced in Japan" because it was basically a loan-word from Japanese where it was also a loan-word, from English(or French, there is relatively little way of verifying concretely).
Saying "Anime" instead of "Japanese animation", to me, amounts to the same as saying "Udon" instead of "Japanese noodles". You're just refusing to translate directly into your own language, and there really isn't a problem with that.

So "can the west produce Anime?" Techinacally they've never done otherwise, as long as it's animated then the Japanese will use the word Anime to describe it.

Can the an American or Mexican make an animated series in the exact way a Japanese person would? Maybe if they were born and raised there, but otherwise everyone will always add something from their own culture and it's perceptions to the mold.

Korra is not the same as Cowboy Bebop nor does it have to be. Both are different works, which you can like or dislike freely.
 

MrFalconfly

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Sep 5, 2011
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maninahat said:
Sis said:
Champagne can only be named champagne if it originates from the Champagne area. Anime can only be named Anime if it originates from the Japan. HOWEVER, that still doesn't mean that others aren't allowed to make it. They're just not allowed to name it so.
Agreed. Basically, American's can easily make something that very strongly resembles anime in every conceivable way, but it wouldn't technically be anime; just an American cartoon that looks like one. With that it mind, it really doesn't make the slightest damn difference.
Except the fact that the only people referring to Japanese animation as "Anime" seems to be Western Fans. There is no politics behind anime, no developers, writers, producers ect. who lobby for the term to be legally bound to the meaning "Animation of a certain style coming from Japan".

You can't equate Anime to Champagne or Bourbon because the creators of anime don't even themselves use that word (unlike champagne producers or bourbon distillers who regularly tell us that the only "real" champagne or bourbon comes from this or that area of some country).

Captcha: bangers and mash

Didn't know captcha was into demo derbys?!?
 

Jonluw

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May 23, 2010
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I really don't agree with this article at all.
Anime isn't a genre defined by its tropes or visual style. The word simply refers to Japanese cartoons. You're not doing anything wrong if you're referring to anime as 'cartoons', but referring to western cartoons as 'anime' doesn't make any sense.

I don't get why fans of the Avatar series are so eager to have it called anime in the first place.

Anime is simply a Japanese loanword used to refer to cartoons from Japan. Using the word to mean anything else is nonsensical, since you might as well just use the word 'cartoon' then and ditch the word 'anime' entirely. Unless you want to start excluding a bunch of Japanese cartoons from the label, that is.
In Japan, the term simply means "cartoon", the same way the word "katana" actually just means "sword" in Japanese. Calling Legend of Korra an anime makes as much sense as calling a flammenschwert a katana.

Anime is a form defined by a common artistic style and visual language, a shared collection of tropes and themes, and perhaps most importantly, a similar canon of influences.
The visual styles within anime actually vary [http://images.wikia.com/protagonist/images/c/cd/Tumblr_ln7oc6eQc61qbxcnm.jpg] greatly [http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Katanagatari_Vol_1_SCR_06.png] outside [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hpPAnnchLlc/TlfeZGm9B5I/AAAAAAAAAMw/ttZucjEMbjc/s1600/fireflies+%25281%2529.jpg] of the (western) mainstream [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AIX5WkSnskc/TfTQnn8OJPI/AAAAAAAAAMo/Ydg2iXNOS8w/s1600/shin_chan.gif] spectrum [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gfHI_-GB0Ns/TcAloAu5D4I/AAAAAAAAGiQ/VZKSg4Jm7u4/s1600/sazaesan1.jpg], and the tropes and themes are completely different depending on what genre of anime you're looking at.
I mean,
place one protagonist with powerful and unique abilities. Next, pour in an exceptionally talented team of supportive friends. Then, add a seemingly impervious villain who aims to remake the world according to his own warped ideals. Throw in a few dashes of strong themes like family, friendship, fear, and death, blend it all together with plenty of beautiful visuals and flawless voice acting.
Seriously? That's how anime is defined? Has the author only watched the mainstream shonen stuff?
I wonder how Hellsing fits into that. Or how about Baccano. Higurashi? Mitsudomoe? Even Lucky star only fits the 'friendship' qualifier. I guess Usagi drop fits because it's about family?

The canon of influence actually involves a lot of western material, Disney cartoons for example.

What the avatar series has done is use a particular visual style that doesn't appear all that often outside of anime. Anime is not defined by this visual style though, it's simply a common aesthetic within the "genre".
Why not call Peanuts an anime? Its visual style is certainly similar enough to Sazae-san, and the themes aren't all that different from stuff like Lucky star.
Calling it anime is like making a film with a lot of choreographed dance scenes and calling it a "Bollywood movie".

My point is that if you no longer restrict anime to refer to Japanese cartoons, it will just refer to cartoons in general, and we already have a perfectly good word to use to refer to cartoons.
Scars Unseen said:
Anime is only useful as a term when it describes animated works that come from Japan. Why? Because it doesn't mean something different than the word "animation." It's the same word. The only reason it is widely known outside of Japan is because Japanese animation became popular outside of Japan. If German cartoons had become wildly popular, we'd be using the German word for cartoon to describe animated works from that country.

Hell, it's only barely adequate to describe Japanese animations, because it's not like all anime are one genre. Your article doesn't even describe anime; it describes a subtype of anime known as shonen. Try to apply your description to a show like Grave of the Fireflies and you will see that you may not understand Japanese animation as much as you think you do. What about Shoujo? Where would Azamanga Daioh fit into your article? Do you think that all anime looks the same? Does Berserk look closer to Bleach than it does Batman: Year One?
 

CrazyGirl17

I am a banana!
Sep 11, 2009
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Does it really matter whether or not America is allowed to make "Animeesque shows or not? Or should we just be more specific with the genre titles?
 

maninahat

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Nov 8, 2007
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Hornet0404 said:
maninahat said:
Except the fact that the only people referring to Japanese animation as "Anime" seems to be Western Fans. There is no politics behind anime, no developers, writers, producers ect. who lobby for the term to be legally bound to the meaning "Animation of a certain style coming from Japan".

You can't equate Anime to Champagne or Bourbon because the creators of anime don't even themselves use that word (unlike champagne producers or bourbon distillers who regularly tell us that the only "real" champagne or bourbon comes from this or that area of some country).
I can equate them, because the distinction between what is anime and what isn't, and the destinction between what is champagne/bourbon and what isn't, is based purely on geographical location. Anime may not be a protected, officially reserved term like champagne or bourbon, but that really has no bearing on the point being made: anime is what we call cartoons from Japan. If it isn't from Japan, it isn't an anime. This may not be officially codified, but that is what the word "anime" means to most westerners.

As a side note, all cartoons from Japan are animes, including the ones that don't have the standard anime aesthetics (square eyes, no nose etc.)
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Okay, well this is a complicated issue. On it's surface the big question here is simply whether someone can produce animated works for a teenage or even adult/young adult audience, and the answer is yes. When it comes the look of anime, which is highly stylized, it's no differant than choosing to paint or draw in a specific style. So the answer is "yes" that anyone can produce Anime.

What might enrage fans, is that Anime was always pretty much American, which was one of the reasons why it was able to penetrate the US market so well. Most of Japan's ideas, themes, and material, along with most of it's culture, were pretty much taken from the US after World War II. Animation was an easier and cheaper format to work with than live action video and movies, so a lot of ideas for a younger audience, or playing around with science fiction and fantasy tropes were created as animation, something that actually worked pretty well. A lot of parallels can be drawn between anime and those ultra-low budget, high concept, C-grade science fiction movies, right up to and including the use of female eye candy to help sell the product. Over the years I've read quite a bit about it. This is not to say that Japan didn't have a film industry (it did, and does) but that it embraced what was arguably a US cast-off technology that had been relegated to a very specific role (entertaining children) and pretty much turned it around to entertain older children. As things stand, despite pretensions by fans, most Anime is NOT intended for adults (the exceptions stand out, or are pornographic), but is developed for a higher "mental age level" than most US animation. It also stands out ironically because according to other things I've read your typical US TV show (not just kid's toons) is developed for a mental age level of like 9 or 10. Despite the content, your typical kid really has no problems sitting down and understanding what is going on during your average prime-time TV drama. Anime generally hit the US "nerd" market in part for not only looking like kid's cartoons to those not paying attention, but because it was over the heads of the mainstream audience in the US. About the third time someone starts prattling on explaining how we have magic interfacing with nano-technology through blood sacrifice (a key plot point, which things revolve around) most kids, and even adults will give up on it calling it "stupid" (which in this case means "not getting it" or not being able to get it while putting their brain firmly in neutral like most entertainment material), which meant like science fiction and a lot of fantasy it became nerd fodder, despite not being all that deep. I honestly don't think it's a matter of Americans being dumber though, I think it comes from the expectation of entertainment to do all the work, and not require one to actively engage at much of a mental level. The program doing all the work, while you just relax (so to speak) which is another subject entirely.


At any rate if you were listening to anime creators, voice actors, etc... when Anime started to seriously penetrate the US market, they used to have interviews following the features on VHS tapes and such, you'd notice a lot of it comes down to how American the entire thing is, and where all the ideas involved came from. An example would be "Lodoss Wars" being inspired directly by Dungeons and Dragons and American RPGs. The same could be said of a lot of things. Even "Gundam" traces it's origins back to the 1920s and 1930s with pulp era science fiction protaganists using armed EVA suits and vehicles. The basic idea simply being "well what if the EVA suit WAS the Vehicle, and was heavily armed, and instead of defense against the occasional predator or space anamoly these guys were seriously making war with them".


I think it could be argued that even as a technicality, Anime can be produced by either Americans (since we're arguably the soul of the entire thing), or Japanese who put the pieces together and created a stylized form of art based around the needs of "on the cheap" animation.

I'll also say that I think there is some butthurt involved, both from the Japanese, and from American fans who like to tout this form of pop culture as part of some fantasy about how Japan is superior to the US and some kind of nerd utopia (which is hardly the case). Even if being covered on Nickelodean so far show like this one, and arguably "Avatar", sort of show the US doing what has been in the eye of man a Japanese phenomena, as well, or perhaps better, than they do, with what amounts to great speed (pretty much as soon as we started actually trying). Not surprising to be honest when you consider how much of Japanese pop culture (even the modern takes on Samurai and Ninjas, which is a complicated thing in of itself) is actually from us. To see a "Kid's Network" pretty much nail it perfectly shatters nerd illusions, and probably reminds Japan how much of itself is arguably from us, as if they needed another reminder. In terms of visuals, smoothness of animation, and similar things (again consider budgets) what the US produced between these shows is arguably superior to like 90% of what Japan has produced when aiming for this style/level of show. It was never a declared competition, but it probably brings to mind images of Japan aping Americans badly with their old "punk rock" bands and such, and the old "well, they're really big in Japan" snark of yesterday and everything that carried with it.

Such are my thoughts and observations, not that I expect many people here to react well to what I'm saying for a number of reasons.

To me, the big question at this point is whether or not animation is going to continue to progress in the US. Nickelodean has been showing what's possible, but really for animation to take off in the US it has to get off specialty kids networks. Truthfully I suspect we are seeing the seeds planted for animation to play a bigger role in entertainment for the next generation or two as I think these shows are planting seeds now, that probably won't really bloom until the current adult generation is past.
 

neoontime

I forgot what this was before...
Jul 10, 2009
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I think it's easier to keep the term anime to Japanese made. Not because a purist reason, but because its simpler when most of all Japanese animation is termed anime. There are many animes that have different drawing styles and writing. I mean the original astro boy seperates from much of the anime today. Coining some American animation as anime opens to the trouble of the widening styles that influence what will be anime in the future.
examples:

plus any thread we had on this site about generalizing anime
 

mfeff

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Nov 8, 2010
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Herman Hedning said:
I have question on this topic. The classical cartoon Animaniacs probably wouldn't be considered an anime, but some parts where animated in Japan. Does that mean some parts of Animaniacs are anime but others are not?
Tough call, but a great one to pick out. Remember having this discussion many years ago with a Japanimation wholesaler.

May even take it a step further and include some Disney stuff which, while not leveraging the art direction, did lift quite a few stories from Japanese media.

I am seeing a lot of "anime is a style" in the thread, which seems a little off... for me I tend to go with "anime" as it is generally understood is both an aesthetic coupled with a thematic. Certainly it is animation from Nippon. Many of the character designs from anime are really simple, use some basic psychology, and have some cultural significance. In this sense I may go so far as to say it's not a "style", rather it is an "approach".

Looking at animaniacs I think we clearly see the aesthetic, but not so much the thematic. On a personal note I don't have a problem putting animaniacs next to a Last Exile on the shelf, but I do consider it to be decidedly western.

If I were to relate it to food, there is a great restaurant chain called P.F. Changs in the states... which is a French spin on Mandarin Chinese cuisine. I don't call it "French" food, I do call it "Chinese" food. In this it is that the dishes, as served, are Chinese. Ultimately it's just French influenced Chinese food.

If the dishes where French, with Chinese sauces I would flip it right around... so going with this, I tend to say it is "whatever the overall theme is", is "what it is" as a matter of convenience.

When I see something trying to get around "what it is", by insisting on being defined as "what it is not", it's normally an indicator that the product is being marketed rather than created to "be" that way.

I put Batman and Animaniacs (both WB I think) as both good, solid works. There are some animation parallels with Japanese animation, but they seem distinct enough to be their own things, and certainly "thematically" they are consistent with themselves. Good is good...

Avatar... and this other thing... I dunno about all that. I always got the impression that Avatar went the way that it did because it was pseudo Asiatic thematically, and the aesthetic kind of carried that theme (Asian art aesthetic = Asian Theme). I figure it is the same way with this other thing, Asiatic or Indian or something...

If ya make it look like anime maybe the anime kiddies will eat it up too without knowing the difference? Looks like marketing to me. So as above... that's what I am going to call it.

Marketing trickery.
 

Genixma

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Sep 22, 2009
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I think the old "can America make anime" and "can Japan make American Cartoons" isn't based on geography. Like someone else said it's just a style, it's like the old debate of Western and Japanese Roleplays. You don't have to make it in Japan or make it in America/Europe for it not to be a Western or JRPG. If they stick to the art style and themes of anime, then sure America can make anime and Japanese can make "American Cartoons". Location really doesn't matter to me.
 

Skillswords

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Mar 25, 2009
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Sober Thal said:
One thing The Legend of Korra has that anime has in spades.... A lackluster/rushed ending.

*sigh

Here's hoping the second part is better!

The show is great, don't get me wrong, but overall I don't really care if it isn't considered 'anime'.
a friend of mine showed me this photo and i dont know embedding on this site

http://i.imgur.com/vtsjW.png
 

5ilver

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Aug 25, 2010
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I don't like anime but I gotta say, that poster looks incredibly sexual/sexy. A lot more than if she was just in her underwear or naked. Idk why.
 

Baldr

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Jan 6, 2010
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What I like about Japanese animation is that it reflects usually Japanese sensibilities. American animation can look similar, but doesn't even come close to Japanese animation because it does not reflect the the sensibilities because of the cultural differences between the makers.
It may be subtle, but when watching the differences puts it out of place.
 
Jan 23, 2009
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There is an awful lot of good south korean animated shows and films which are certainly considered as anime. Let's not pretend that it's a Japanese monopoly. However there is a certain bias when talking about "western" produced art and motion animation. There is a perception that western art is always bad.
 

MrFalconfly

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maninahat said:
As you said "to us westerners".

That disqualifies the whole argument from the start. and wether it was legally protected or not wasn't my argument. My argument was that the creators themselves don't use it (unlike any other style or genre or whatever the hell you want to say "Anime" is besides just a word used by japanese people for animation in general).

I couldn't give two shits about what a westerner thinks or calls something if it isn't the proper nomenclature. "Anime" as a term is basically just fanon taken to the most absurd extreme (ONLY western fans use it).
 

hentropy

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Feb 25, 2012
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It's just a designation. Some may use it as a way to slight or trivialize American cartoons done in anime style, but in the end the Legend of Korra is fundamentally no different than Spongebob Squarepants in terms of designation. It's an American cartoon. There's nothing wrong with that. Calling it anime just confuses things. You can call it anime-style or whatever, but it's not anime. Whether or not Korean or Chinese cartoons should be designated "anime", now THAT'S a real debate.
 

Arina Love

GOT MOE?
Apr 8, 2010
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English people struggle even to dub anime and Japanese games properly. 7 years watching anime i've yet to see a dub that as good as original. There is no way you will get good result out of English produced anime.
 

DeltaEdge

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May 21, 2010
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I tend to define anime by the origin of the animation (Japan) rather than the style, so I don't agree with identifying Korra as anime, but at the same time, I think that Korra is much better than most anime and I almost find it insulting that anime is used as the benchmark by some and say something is good enough to be an anime, when that something might be much better than most anime. In conclusion, no Americans (or anyone else for that matter) cannot make anime, but they can sure as hell make something of equal or greater value than many anime, or in this case, Korra.