Can Americans Make Anime?

[SacremPyrobolum]

People are saying that typically, Western animation is aimed towards children, and I believe that the Legend of Korra is, while more mature than its predecessor, still aimed towards children.

I do not think this is a hinderence at all, in fact I think that the wholesomness of it all from beings aimed at kids improves the series quality.

What is funny is by making this safe for kids they condemn the characters to works fates than death. Imprisoned for decades, controlled by magic, the destruction of your identity, it is a bit like in the inquisition where they were not allowed to draw blood and so game up with more devious means to torture and kill. I was surprised by how both series were dark as fuck when you look at it from a more mature perspective, but it will most likely go over a kids head.

That being said, I do find it funny that in a war against people who fling fire that only three people are seen burned and two of them are by accident.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

Let me summarize this post:

Broad terminology is bullshit.

It does kinda suck that anime is literally a Japanese cartoon and can't be considered its own genre, as in "High quality animation" or the likes.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Can we just use the word Cartoon? It's a lot simpler and it doesn't come with a stigma attached to it. It also stops pretentious twerps from talking about the supposed superiority of one form of animation over another. I like anime shows, but I fucking hate the term itself.

This article for example annoys me. Legend of Korra should be considered an anime. Why should it? Because the term anime somehow means it is being held to a higher standard? No, that sounds pretty fucking stupid. It's a cartoon. Just like DBZ is a cartoon. Calling it anime is not applying some sort of gold medal to it to say "this is good enough to be different from other animation". It's just labeling it differently so that this goddamn self fulfilling idea that "cartoons are for kids" can perpetuate.

Call it what it is and stop trying to justify your enjoyment of a series.

 

[DarkRyter]

Would you care to elaborate?

Yes.

Do you disagree that it is an artistic aesthetic developed in one country but not tied to it? Do you disagree that it is a way of telling stories that while having many influences of an Eastern culture can still be replicated by a non-Eastern storyteller?

Yes. And Yes.

Style in fiction is simply aspects of composition, the amalgamation of which results in a story. Which memes, which narration, which symbolism, which voice and tone all combine to create a finished whole. Whether the writer is Japanese or not, if the combination of all of the parts of the whole is indistinguishable from anime, then is it not anime?

Anime is not a style. Similiair stylistic elements to certain anime, does not make it anime, just as a lack of such elements wouldn't make it not anime.

And what about non-native Japanese who create works?

What about them?

So if a third generation Japanese-American who has never ever visited Japan decides to create an anime is it still an anime simply by dint of his genetic heritage??

He is not a Japanese American. He is an American. He has created an American cartoon. Genetic heritage only matters to doctors and racists.

Or are you seriously suggesting that one culture cannot be understood and impact upon the storytelling of another?

Nope.

It is interesting to note ...

No, it isn't.

Also, Kung Fu Panda is considered so good in China that they had official conferences about why they couldn't make movies that captured their own heritage so well.

Man, I knew that. I own both on blu ray. And bought the 200 dollar art book. And by bought, I mean shoplifted from the bookstore.

When Western Developers make anime

Not anime.

which is in fact better at capturing the source material than the Eastern Japanese Developers

Doesn't matter.

Anime is term used to describe animation from Japan. Common stylistic elements found in anime does not make it anime. If Sailor Moon was made in Germany, it would not be anime. If Family Guy was made in Japan, it WOULD be anime.

 

[dantoddd]

One thing The Legend of Korra has that anime has in spades.... A lackluster/rushed ending.

*sigh

so true.

I think what makes something anime is just the country of origin. If you look at house the term is colloquially used it's usually to refer to animation from japan. Also, if anyone trys to define anime by styles and themes it would be very easy to find an 'anime' that doesn't fit that mold.

 

[Weaver]

I feel like such an old fuck when saying this, but in my time it was simply called Japanese animation. And in conversations even now, I still don't use the term 'anime' or 'manga'. Probably because I don't want to come across as a massive geek at my age, but primarily because both terms are just the Japanese translation of the words 'animation' and 'comic'. So I'll just use those words instead.

In all honesty, I wish the term 'anime' would simply fucking vanish (atleast in the West). All it seems to do is uphold this ridgid design template of how something is supposed to look. The increase in anime-looking cartoons in America only supports this. Now, Avatar and Korra are the only two of these types of shows that have actual quality, but the way the character design seems hellbent on looking anime-ish always keeps it from being truly remarkable.

And Korra kinda sucked btw.

Wakfu was French and borrows some Japanese stylistic points. I highly recommend it. The villain actually had real and believable motivations, which alone was enough to make me like it. It's still a kids show, though in France they seem to be a little more open to sexual jokes and innuendo (on rare occasion) even in Wakfu.

 

[Sebass]

Maybe 'What is anime?' is the wrong question and we should first ask ourselves: 'Is the word anime an adequate description of something in the first place?'.

'Anime' refers so many different series (Naruto - Akira- Death Note - Evangelion - Cowboy Bebop - Ergo Proxy - Berserk - Gundam anything) that it's useless to define it as a specific type of genre or specific type of style. Naruto can not be compared to Death Note, they are as different as Beverly Hills cop and Se7en or Harry Potter and The Pelican Brief (it's a book that's a thriller). All of those however fall under the same category of 'film' and 'book' respectively, a specific type medium that encompasses different genres and styles.

That means that if 'anime' is used in any type of context it has to refer to a type of medium. The only way it's possible to distinguish 'anime' from 'cartoon' is to use 'made in Japan' as a criterium. If we classify LOK under 'anime' we might as well classify every western cartoon as anime since the word doesn't distinguish between styles or genres when it comes to Japanese animation either. So we either use anime as a synonym for 'animated series' or we use it just to refer to Japanese animated series, there's no middle ground here.

That posses a problem however in the hypothetical scenario of an international animated series: if for example half of a team that works on the show is Japanese and the other half is American is that show an anime, a cartoon or a cartoonime? Or what if it's a show produced in America by Japanese immigrants who arrived here a year ago? What about 10 years or 20 years? What about second or third generation immigrants? Or the same scenario reversed with American immigrants in Japan. It gets a little vague because geographical location, nationality or ethnic heritage of the creators doesn't really mean anything.

So perhaps it's best if we let go of the notion that 'anime' can be used as an accurate or clearly defined term to describe anything in the first place. There's no need for any discussion whether or not Korra is 'anime' or not because the term itself is meaningless anyway.

 

[dantoddd]

You can call korra what ever you want to but it clearly draws alot of inspiration from a lot of popular Anime. Korra for example might as well be from a miyazaki movie.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I feel like such an old fuck when saying this, but in my time it was simply called Japanese animation. And in conversations even now, I still don't use the term 'anime' or 'manga'. Probably because I don't want to come across as a massive geek at my age, but primarily because both terms are just the Japanese translation of the words 'animation' and 'comic'. So I'll just use those words instead.

In all honesty, I wish the term 'anime' would simply fucking vanish (atleast in the West). All it seems to do is uphold this ridgid design template of how something is supposed to look. The increase in anime-looking cartoons in America only supports this. Now, Avatar and Korra are the only two of these types of shows that have actual quality, but the way the character design seems hellbent on looking anime-ish always keeps it from being truly remarkable.

And Korra kinda sucked btw.

Wakfu was French and borrows some Japanese stylistic points. I highly recommend it. The villain actually had real and believable motivations, which alone was enough to make me like it. It's still a kids show, though in France they seem to be a little more open to sexual jokes and innuendo (on rare occasion) even in Wakfu.

All these Western anime styled cartoons just seem to spring from the mindset of, "Hey, them teenagers today sure are into that anime, aren't they? Why not try to make our cartoons look like that?"

A bit more variety in art style and character design would be nice. The fact that Japanese animation has more or less become a "style" is rather depressing of itself.

 

[Missing SHODAN]

The use of 'anime' as a genre is only helpful in that it flags things as being from Japan because otherwise as a label it includes shows about 15 year old girls trying to lose their virginity (B Gata H Kei/Yamada's First Time) and movies about dying from the aftereffects of a nuclear bomb detonation (Grave of the Fireflies). If you want to broaden out the label any further, you might as well just call them cartoons - or you could argue that shounen (the genre of anime the author largely alludes to) should be broadened out to include non-Japanese works, then that's fine (although why use a Japanese word instead of an English one in this case?)

The term anime is already ridiculously broad. It covers psychological horror and pokemon, art styles from Panty and Stocking to Howl's Moving Castle, and target audiences ranging from young children to adults (or "adults" if you want to be snide). So I'd argue that Last Airbender and Korra are not anime only because the term is otherwise indistinguishable from the term cartoon.

You want them to be considered shounen, fine, they're shounen (although if you're going to include non-Japanese things in the genre, you might as well come up with a non-Japanese name for its use outside of Japan so that you don't come off as being intentionally obfuscating.

 

[Quaidis]

The real funny twist about this entire article is that Avatar: The Last Airbender (and likely Korra as well) are drawn, animated, and sequenced in Korea. Nickelodeon likes outsourcing projects. They come up with the story, plot, voices, and likely a storyboard or five in America, and have people in Korea do it for them. Many products made for Nick (like dvds) are made in Mexico as well, usually.

So you can't say it's an entirely American cartoon. It's more 'anime' (as in, closer to Japan) than American in terms of how it looks.

The same goes for Spongebob and PowerPuffGirls, on the by.


But hey, while we talk about Amerimes from those Animericans and their problems with titling what is and isn't Americanimes, I'm under the question of why we have to title things so strictly. First you complain about the word 'anime', then you argue over if it's a rpg or not. Why not accept that Japan has its own cultural look on things, and America is a mishmash or many ideals all bagged together. If Americans want to call them cartoons, call them cartoons. If Japan wants to call it Anime, call it anime. If the world wants to call cartoons from Japan (and China, and Korea, and Asia as a whole) anime, let them. If the world wants to call their own cartoons cartoons, let them. And if some person dressed up as a cat girl throws a hissy fit over calling Avatar: The Last Airbender anime, tell them it's from Korea. =P Then see them get confused and laugh.

 

[Weaver]

I feel like such an old fuck when saying this, but in my time it was simply called Japanese animation. And in conversations even now, I still don't use the term 'anime' or 'manga'. Probably because I don't want to come across as a massive geek at my age, but primarily because both terms are just the Japanese translation of the words 'animation' and 'comic'. So I'll just use those words instead.

In all honesty, I wish the term 'anime' would simply fucking vanish (atleast in the West). All it seems to do is uphold this ridgid design template of how something is supposed to look. The increase in anime-looking cartoons in America only supports this. Now, Avatar and Korra are the only two of these types of shows that have actual quality, but the way the character design seems hellbent on looking anime-ish always keeps it from being truly remarkable.

And Korra kinda sucked btw.

Wakfu was French and borrows some Japanese stylistic points. I highly recommend it. The villain actually had real and believable motivations, which alone was enough to make me like it. It's still a kids show, though in France they seem to be a little more open to sexual jokes and innuendo (on rare occasion) even in Wakfu.

All these Western anime styled cartoons just seem to spring from the mindset of, "Hey, them teenagers today sure are into that anime, aren't they? Why not try to make our cartoons look like that?"

A bit more variety in art style and character design would be nice. The fact that Japanese animation has more or less become a "style" is rather depressing of itself.

I see what you're saying. Though I feel Wakfu really is more "borrowing elements" than ripping off the style wholesale. It's actually quite unique looking, and the French have some fantastic animation studios. The show is French through and through, and I don't think anyone could mistake it for anything else.

Spoiler

That being said, I feel your trepidation with the proliferation of the "style" of Japanese animation. For instance, I felt Dragon Age 2 totally put in combat you'd see in a Shonen show or a JRPG as opposed to the more Tolkein pace of the first one. However, it handled it with none of the tact that those tend to have (at least, when they have them). It was just put in because they likely thought it's what teenagers want now-a-days.

 

[Weaver]

One thing The Legend of Korra has that anime has in spades.... A lackluster/rushed ending.

*sigh

so true.

I think what makes something anime is just the country of origin. If you look at house the term is colloquially used it's usually to refer to animation from japan. Also, if anyone trys to define anime by styles and themes it would be very easy to find an 'anime' that doesn't fit that mold.

so true too!

Off the top of my head, I'd say Kaiba doesn't fit the 'anime' mold, yet it most certainly is animation from Japan.

Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt is also a unique style, but I still consider it anime. This is also why I consider Anime to just mean "animation from Japan"

Spoiler

 

[Rabid Chipmunk]

Meanwhile, Avatar has very pronounced western sensibilities. Prince Tsuko's character development is somewhat of an exception and the story arc of how he must learn to channel his energy not from his anger, but from his love of life feels distinctly anime-like. However, there are several telling moments where it is clear that the narrative of Avatar is based on western tradition:
1. When Aang unlocks his ultimate form, it isn't because of an epiphany, it isn't beacause he stayed true to his values or anything remotely thematic. He unlocked the final Avatar state because of a Deus ex Machina that otherwise had no emotional weight.
2. Similarly, when Korra masters airbending and again when she manages to become a completed Avatar, there is no thematic meaning to it. It just happens. Maybe there is an explanation for it, but there is an obvious thematic dissonance.
3. Tsuko and Azula's last fight: If anime rules applied, Tsuko would definitely win, hands down. He doesn't win though. That kind of cynical twist of events is grounded in very western sensibilities.

I felt the need to respond to this part of your post, because you seem to be implying that Deus ex Machina is a strictly American theatrical tool that does not exist inside of Japan. So just to make a point, have you ever seen Bleach? Deus ex Machina out the ass.

OT: I generally consider anime to strictly refer to "animated cartoons made inside Japan," but I still believe that it's possible to make good western cartoons with animation influenced by Japanese anime. When I discuss Avatar or The Legend of Korra, I describe it as "like an anime," because that's what it is to me. It has many anime-like qualities, but it was not made in Japan, so I don't consider it truly "anime." However, as I discuss this, it becomes increasingly apparent just how meaningless the distinction "anime" truly is.

 

[MailOrderClone]

It bothers me that fantastic adventure shows like those listed in this article are becoming the exception, rather than the norm in anime production. Every season we get more and more series' set in modern Japanese high schools, held up by the dual crutches of moe and fanservice. Too many harem shows with bland male leads and cookie-cutter female casts pandering to fetishes. Too much vapid sex comedy. Too many plots that can be described as "cute girls talk and do cute things... and that's a wrap, folks!" But those seem to be the things that the Japanese viewership likes.

We in the west have a chance to do something different. Something better. To make shows that are actually worth airing, and worth watching. There are a few on television these days, and I encourage all of you to join me in seeking these shows out, watching them, and supporting them.

 

[Prosis]

If anime can only be made by Japan, I would argue that western cartoons can only be made by western countries. That is, Japan cannot make western cartoons, no matter how good or bad the series is.

I fail to see how the country of origin makes something better or worse.

 

[Rack]

In theory yes. In practise, no. So far American companies have managed to copy the very basic stylistic components of Japanese Anime, but haven't got anywhere in emulating the deeper themes and cultural impact. Western anime, as opposed to the better Western Animation just comes across as feeling soulless. A good American Animation might take on themes and elements from Japanese Anime but it will retain its own distinct style. The world isn't so homogeneous yet that you can wholly transfer an art form from place to place.

 

[Missing SHODAN]

In theory yes. In practise, no. So far American companies have managed to copy the very basic stylistic components of Japanese Anime, but haven't got anywhere in emulating the deeper themes and cultural impact. Western anime, as opposed to the better Western Animation just comes across as feeling soulless. A good American Animation might take on themes and elements from Japanese Anime but it will retain its own distinct style. The world isn't so homogeneous yet that you can wholly transfer an art form from place to place.

Oh yes, I remember the first time I ran into "Legend of the Overfiend," I had to adjust my top hat and monocle in order to maximally ponder the deep themes and cultural impact.

The animated ladies involved certainly experienced some deep themes, if you know what I mean, and they seemed to be getting impacted in quite the cultural fashion.

...seriously, Last Airbender is a pretty good show, and there's plenty of terrible anime that is objectively worse than it.

 

[Weaver]

It bothers me that fantastic adventure shows like those listed in this article are becoming the exception, rather than the norm in anime production. Every season we get more and more series' set in modern Japanese high schools, held up by the dual crutches of moe and fanservice. Too many harem shows with bland male leads and cookie-cutter female casts pandering to fetishes. Too much vapid sex comedy. Too many plots that can be described as "cute girls talk and do cute things... and that's a wrap, folks!" But those seem to be the things that the Japanese viewership likes.

We in the west have a chance to do something different. Something better. To make shows that are actually worth airing, and worth watching. There are a few on television these days, and I encourage all of you to join me in seeking these shows out, watching them, and supporting them.

This is an attitude that really rubs me the wrong way. Moe and slice of life is hardly killing anime, and it's hardly as prolific as so many people think.

Take a quick look at the august release list from the main studios: http://i.imgur.com/qAYBV.jpg

There are 4 out of 23 new anime shows in August could realistically fall under that definition. Almost all the rest are your traditional Shonen style action shows that are far more popular. I'm just firmly against the western thought process that if something is emotionally engaging or doesn't have explosions it's girly and no one should like it because we're MEN and we do MANLY things and watching moe makes me less MANLY. *electric guitar solo*.

It just bugs me in that people seem to have a problem that moe exists, ignoring that that it's really a few studios like Key and Kyoto Animation making it; and people seem to froth at the mouth despite that KyoAni and Key have been making this stuff for like 15 years. To me, Moe is a character style. Some is good (I like K-on for instance because it's chaste, more on this later), some is complete and utter shit (Miname-ke instantly springs to mind) but it containing these characters doesn't make it good or bad in my opinion.

I DO agree that fanservice has gotten far, far too rampant however. I just really can't take a show heavy on fanservice seriously (air-gear, highschool of the dead). Air-gear especially epitomizes this for me. The show was nothing but fanservice, the plot went off the rails sometime half way through the season and it really made little sense in the end. All it had was tits, sexy girls and "hilarious" scenes where the main character accidentally barges in on them naked. What a fresh gag, we haven't seen that before.

I'm just rambling.

 

[medv4380]

"Can anyone outside of Japan make Anime?" is unequivocally "No."
Actually the answer is Unequivocally YES. Most Anime isn't even made In Japan anymore. Most anime is farmed out to Korean Sweat Shops. Heck Legend of Korra is even made by a Korean Sweat Shop run by Buster Bunny himself.

Anime is a Japaneese word for animation/cartoons.. Therefor, unless you are a Japaneese outside Japan, I really doubt you would be making anime's. It would just be, well.. Animation or Cartoons.

Incorrect.
Per a Dictionary
Anime is a style of animation originating in Japan that is characterized by stark colorful graphics depicting vibrant characters in action-filled plots often with fantastic or futuristic themes See here [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anime?show=0&t=1343660934].

Anime is a STYLE that originated in Japan but isn't done exclusively in Japan.

If I make an Edo Style Wood Block print it is a ukiyo-e? Yes it is because it is a particular Style and as long as I follow that style then there is no problem.

American Cartoons as an mature medium died long ago and because of that have a childish tone to them. American Cartoons are themselves a Style.

Your Dictionary is incorrect. Anime isnt a style. . . Saying its a style would mean that its a certain way of drawing, but there are tons of ways to draw and as far as I recall they are all named something different.

The term is up for interpretation, one of the interpretations (A huge generalization) being in an american dictionary doesnt prove much of anything.

Avatar is a western cartoon, made as if it was a Japaneese cartoon.

That being said this is pointless to be drawn into an arguement over. So im quitting before it gets further.

So not only are you claiming Websters as wrong, along with a half dozen other dictionaries, and Wikipedia, but you're also making an absurd claim that makes Spirited Away not anime because it was made in Korea. Really, the country of origin is irrelevant. Where it is made had little to do with it being called Anime and more to do with the style that it follows. Your "definition" excluded 90% of what is considered Anime by the world.

Check and Mate