Can Americans Make Anime?

[Sotanaht]

Same argument as this applies to JRPGs.

The definition of Genre is rather specific. It specifically defines a set of works that share common stylistic criteria. Country of origin is NOT a stylistic criteria and therefor has NO BEARING on what can or cannot be included in a genre. If you want to refer to Anime or JRPGs as genres, you cannot limit them to only works made in Japan. If you would rather claim that those two terms are NOT genre titles, then you leave the associated works without such necessary categorization. What I consider an Anime or a JRPG is very clearly different then other animated works or RPGs, so the terms or ones like them seem useful and necessary as genre names.

What is in a name though? It does not matter that we call the genre "anime" which the original meaning literally just meant "animation", nor does it matter that we call it "Japanese role-playing game" even when it doesn't come from japan (or vice versa for a role-playing game from Japan that is not a JRPG). By any other name, we still have the same definition when we are referring to those genres. The arguments are only based on the words we choose for these names which, once defined as names, have no bearing on their definitions as used here.

 

[awdrifter]

I really don't agree with the argument in the article. Yes, Korra can be influenced by anime, it can have similar styles and storyline, but that doesn't make it anime. It's still a cartoon, or animated TV series. Even though the word anime originates from animation, its reverse imported into English and it's mostly used to describe Japanese made animation. Just because your whiskey taste similar to Jack Daniels, doesn't mean you can call it Jack Daniels.

 

[Icehearted]

There is a lot of discussion here.. but NO...

Many people have said it, Avatar clearly tries to emulate Japanese Animation in many ways, but it doesn't quite succeed in my books.

Japanese animators use different techniques, framing and style when animating. I'm by no means a complete expert, but I can tell from a mile away that Avatar, Ben 10, or things like Boondocks are NOT japanese productions. A lot of the animation is done in Korea, and other non japanese studios, and their output lacks the precision and is evidently different for the keen eye, even when we talk about the lowest quality anime. I personally have not seen the production feel of anime in american produced shows, ever.

Show me 5 seconds of animation from either production and I will be able to tell you instantly if it is Japanese animation or not. I suppose like some people say that diet-coke has the same taste as coke, and actual coke drinkers can tell the difference immediately.

That said, Anime is a generic term of production. Themes, styles and topics are hugely varied, even when the public eye focuses mostly on stereotypes. To me, the plot of Avatar, and TLOK, are very generic eastern inspired action fantasy stories. Not necessarily anime, but closer to 80's european narratives. Most western animation seems to consider fantasy a necessity, while the japanese animation I like, often follows absolutely realistic narratives. It has the faculty to tackle themes that may not be oriented to children.

A distinction would be Afro samurai. Or the new Thundercats or xmen anime, I'm not a big fan of any of them but you can clearly see that the production style (often linked to the framerate of the original animation) is different.

I have distanced myself a lot from anime lately, but I have to disagree with most commenters and the article: yes, you can tell the difference. And no, at least this is not anime.

This is exactly right. The idea that anime is exclusive to Japan has less to do with the region and more to do with the style. There is a feel, a quality, coloring, scale and fluidity that comes from Japanese work that cannot (so far) be emulated outside of their studios. I've seen some quality work by people influenced by anime, but those are rare exceptions. For the most part, if it's not anime, it shouldn't try to be.

The image used for the article is a perfect example of what I mean.

For better reference, when I was a kid (lo those decades ago) Some shows actually had anime intros and credit rolls (animated by Japanese artists) but the shows themselves were clearly not anime. These were released by a studio called DIC, where people from the US, France, Canada, and Japan worked together.

See the animation in this example. The opening, the mini skit, and then ending, all evidently of varying quality (where the intro is more fluid and detailed and has more consistent scale and overall quality, the skit looks choppier and inconsistent, then the credit roll resumes the higher quality more or less).

Other examples (look up episodes where you can to see the animation quality change noticeably during the show itself):

Spoiler: The Thundercats

Spoiler: The Mighty Orbots

Spoiler: Silverhawks

Spoiler: Bionic Six

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Well, because of this article I've started watching Legend of Korra.

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised. It's quite good. Well animated, VO's pretty good, interesting world...thank you article writer person. I probably would have skipped this.

 

[Alterego-X]

The discussion is ludicrous at best. Setting written-in-stone labels on art is just silly. Art is subjective, and we will use words to describe what it looks like to us. If I see teen titans, its anime to me since it got chibi, exaggerated movement segments and googly eyes. For one whos much more into japanese animation than me, something else (that I dont bother about) might make him deem it cartoony. Both are correct, just subjective opinions.

If I see a whale, it's a fish to me, since it got fins and it's swimming in water. For one who is more into biology than me, some inner body parts (that I don't bother about) might make him call it a mammal. Both are correct, just subjective opinions.

Does that make sense?

Actually it does. Taxonomy is a subjective science, biological groups exists because we invented them. There is no tangible law of nature that says we MUST categorize animals based on their integumentary systems, breathing methods, and reproduction methods, instead of their habitat, or their body shape.

When a scientist says that you shouldn't call a whale a fish they don't say that because it's "objectively wrong", but because it goes against those established definitions that are more practical for people who do care about biological systems.

Likewise, whether or not Teen Titans is an anime might be "subjective" in a physical-philosophical sense, but that doesn't mean that your personal terminology that is admittedly based on ignorant generalizations, is on the same level as established definitions by people who know more about it.

 

[grumpymooselion]

I lived in Japan for most of my young life. You want to know what they called their animation over there? Cartoons. Animation. All the things we call our cartoons and animation, albeit with an accent. That would be the actual creators of the time, as well as the viewers. Cartoons. Animation.

I never heard the term Anime until I came to the west, and its definition was always, "What we call Eastern Cartoons/Animation" . . . so unless you're creation is wholly made in the east, I have no idea why anyone would want to call their animation or cartoons anime, other that to designate where it was made. This article seems incredibly like it is reaching for something that is not there.

 

[Kakistos153]

objectively true answer:

no because there are too many nuances and eccentricities of the japanese culture that without deep immersion in the culture and language (for example by being from there) would be absent. perhaps a decent approximation, but i don't think anything would be (nor has been) deserving of the title. japanese coporate hack anime will always be of a greater quality than honest american artists interpretation and approximations of anime.

 

[Fbuh]

Well, it depends on what you would classify as anime. It hink it should be rephrased to "Can American's make Japanese-style anime," which to me is generally 'No'. Avatar was decent, but it came off as a bit stereotypical/cliched (I do like it, though.)

I think the problem is that Amercan anime strives to emulate an artistic style based off of another culture, and misses the mark because it does not have the same background as said culture. Everything about Japanese anime is a sort of culmintion of Japanese culture, and one would have to understand bits of that culture in order to understand Japanese anime.

I think that the potential is there, but why even try to make something that copies another culture? America has it's own artistic style, and it doesn't necessarily have to emulate Japan's. It comes off more as a cop out for cash, and puts me in mind of a group of executives saying "Hey, that anime stuff is prety popular with kids. Let's do that!"

EDIT: I would also like to point out that a lot of die hard anime enthusiasts do not really agree that American voice acting is good quality. Most of it completely misses the mark on emotional depth or tone. Full Metal Alchemist is an example of terrible voice acting.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Hi all.

Felt compelled to sign up and add to this.

I think Suki said it right, which is anime just means animation, regardless of country or origin. Anything else is nonsense. Adopting and changing words to suit your needs, is not always a good thing, and in terms of anime, and just creates not only confusion but a bad sphere of negative elitism, of the kind that can destroy what you love, and put fans of stuff at each others throats.

Oban Star Racers and Wakfu are still anime, though their creators are french.
And Avatar, Avatar The Legend of Korra are still anime, though conceived and created in N-America. All they need is their country of origin before the 'anime' word.

Enough with the elitism and labels. For if you are right, what does that make Ulysses 31, Jayce and the Wheel Warriors, and the Mysterious Cities of Gold? All of those are French/Japanese co productions. Does this mean they are some how less anime? No, they are Franco/Japanese anime, simple as.

Some may play the style card to differentiate animation per country (as a fan I admit I've done so in error), in truth, all animation is anime and vice versa. What we get from japan is japanese anime.

What do I use? Just anime, because the people who I'll talk to, will know exactly what I mean.
Personally, I try to appreciate all forms of animation, so long as they entertain. From Avengers EMH, to Young Justice to good japanese anime. (no harem moe, pandering crud though)

With regards to The Legend of Korra, while its obviously influenced by japanese anime, (its creators admit this much and interviews with them are worth checking out) it has done so in a positive way. I really enjoyed, Korra and its watchable by all ages. Just a shame so much (not all) recent japanese anime isn't to this high standard anymore.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

I honestly think the world would be a better place when anyone was allowed to do what their dreams are without being judged, because they dreamed of doing something more commonly found in a different Place/Culture.

The first 5 episodes of TMNT were animated in Japan. Does that stop TMNT from being a cartoon? Fook no.

The Simpson's were animated in Korea, does that stop it from being a Western cartoon?

If "Anime" is a type of animated show, then any show that fits the criteria should be allowed to have the title without needing to have been made by someone born in Japan.

I have American made manga published by Tokyo Pop. It's still manga, even if it's from 'Edward Nigma" instead of "Seto Kaiba."

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Well, it depends on what you would classify as anime. It hink it should be rephrased to "Can American's make Japanese-style anime," which to me is generally 'No'. Avatar was decent, but it came off as a bit stereotypical/cliched (I do like it, though.)

I think the problem is that Amercan anime strives to emulate an artistic style based off of another culture, and misses the mark because it does not have the same background as said culture. Everything about Japanese anime is a sort of culmintion of Japanese culture, and one would have to understand bits of that culture in order to understand Japanese anime.

I think that the potential is there, but why even try to make something that copies another culture? America has it's own artistic style, and it doesn't necessarily have to emulate Japan's. It comes off more as a cop out for cash, and puts me in mind of a group of executives saying "Hey, that anime stuff is prety popular with kids. Let's do that!"

EDIT: I would also like to point out that a lot of die hard anime enthusiasts do not really agree that American voice acting is good quality. Most of it completely misses the mark on emotional depth or tone. Full Metal Alchemist is an example of terrible voice acting.

"Well, it depends on what you would classify as anime. It hink it should be rephrased to "Can American's make Japanese-style anime," which to me is generally 'No'. Avatar was decent, but it came off as a bit stereotypical/cliched (I do like it, though.)"


Stereotypical/cliched? Sounds like anime to me. :3




"I think the problem is that Amercan anime strives to emulate an artistic style based off of another culture, and misses the mark because it does not have the same background as said culture. Everything about Japanese anime is a sort of culmintion of Japanese culture, and one would have to understand bits of that culture in order to understand Japanese anime."

I'd disagree. There's plenty of 'anime' that emulate cultures not of Japanese descent, from Chinese, Egyptian, American and so on, while others even mix Japanese and American culture.

In fact, Japan's culture has been heavily influenced by Western culture, and that is reflected in Anime.



"I think that the potential is there, but why even try to make something that copies another culture? America has it's own artistic style, and it doesn't necessarily have to emulate Japan's. It comes off more as a cop out for cash, and puts me in mind of a group of executives saying "Hey, that anime stuff is prety popular with kids. Let's do that!"


Umm, what? That's so stupid! What if they did it because they love the art style of Anime? They're not allowed to do it because it's copying another cultures style?

Oop, better ignite all copies of Panty and Stocking on fire for copying Merica's Cartoon art style!

So what if it has its own style? Ever heard of diversity? Why should we be limited to one cultures art style when we can use the worlds to display what we love? Would God of War's 2D, Ancient Greece-ish styled cutscenes be better if they had used the art style of JLA the cartoon?

Take Yu-Gi-Oh! for instance, it has a mixture of Anime, MtG and cartoon style art.

Pokemon mixes cartoon art, with anime art.


Should Zelda Wind Waker have been in Anime style, rather then Western cartoon style? Just because the developers were Japanese?


"EDIT: I would also like to point out that a lot of die hard anime enthusiasts do not really agree that American voice acting is good quality. Most of it completely misses the mark on emotional depth or tone. Full Metal Alchemist is an example of terrible voice acting."

Honestly, here's another thing I hate. The idiotic bitching about how the dub is NEVER good, or their never showing the right emotions.

Gah, it's sooo stupid. I've watched FMA, I can honestly say that I'll never accept Ed without Vic Minogna's voice.

I see it as good voice acting. I've seen the Japanese audio for some anime where I have to ask why the hell the voices don't fit the characters.

I can't even take the Dragon Ball Z Japanese version serious. Goku sounds like he's 10, not 30.

 

[Kuroneko97]

How about we stop giving a fuck about whether or not it's anime and start giving a fuck about whether or not it's a good show?

Don't get me wrong; I obviously love anime. But I don't think the style is important. It's the story and their characters and how it's told that draw me in.

 

[ph0b0s123]

Late to the party, but....

Isn't most of the animation work for Bleach and Naruto done by Nara Animation?

They're Korean, right?

Isn't Korra's animation handled by STUDIO MIR.

They're also Korean, right?

You want to explain why to me why one is Anime and one isn't again?

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I don't think Western animation should strive to be Eastern animation, but instead you know... be its own thing. Graphic Novels are not exactly the same as Manga, and they shouldn't be. I don't see why the West should have to emulate the East for the animaton to be considered good.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Bourbon is regulated not because of the political reasons this article speaks of but simply because the air and environment MATTERS and it really won't taste the same. It's those things which are unique to the location that make it what it is.




Similarly, Kora isn't an anime because all those things are lacking from it. Only an amateur would call it's blatant second hand attempt at imitating generic anime as something more than that. It's a cartoon which tried to be non-kiddy and about a continuous plot...and that's FINE!



Just like the whiskey connoisseur will be able to instantly tell whether something is Bourbon or not, so does the anime aficionado have the ability to instantly discern that Kora really isn't anime at all...and it has nothing to do with the intro or outro nor the lack of Kanji. It's visibly apparent and very much so. The "air" of American-origin permeates it entirely.

 

[Marik2]

I don't think Western animation should strive to be Eastern animation, but instead you know... be its own thing. Graphic Novels are not exactly the same as Manga, and they shouldn't be. I don't see why the West should have to emulate the East for the animaton to be considered good.

Strange how back then, Japan looked to the west for animation inspiration and now the tables have turned.

And I'm starting to like the art style that Warner Bros has on their cartoons


Edit: And no comic book heroes are not lame

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I don't think Western animation should strive to be Eastern animation, but instead you know... be its own thing. Graphic Novels are not exactly the same as Manga, and they shouldn't be. I don't see why the West should have to emulate the East for the animaton to be considered good.

Strange how back then, Japan looked to the west for animation inspiration and now the tables have turned.

And I'm starting to like the art style that Warner Bros has on their cartoons


Edit: And no comic book heroes are not lame

I know, that's where Japanese animation came from. But, I'm saying that its stupid that the West now wants to emulate the East instead of doing their own thing.

 

[Marik2]

I know, that's where Japanese animation came from. But, I'm saying that its stupid that the West now wants to emulate the East instead of doing their own thing.

Yeah I know, but the big irony is that they are now trying to emulate what was theirs from the beginning.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I know, that's where Japanese animation came from. But, I'm saying that its stupid that the West now wants to emulate the East instead of doing their own thing.

Yeah I know, but the big irony is that they are now trying to emulate what was theirs from the beginning.

That's the part I find stupid.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Er, no its not stupid for western studios to evolve in terms of story content and art style. You're thinking too much from a fan perspective, which only sees and accepts so much.

The hard fact is animation is an entertainment industry, and like all in industries, it must diversify or die. Its expensive to produce and must also find and an audience to survive. Many shows have died a death before Avatar, trying to capture the fans of anime, as they know anime is where fans are going. With the huge output of anime seasonally, let alone annually, that's a tough amount of competition to go up against.

You have to try and lose that strange hubris of fan elitism, that this person can't be influenced by that or this. All artistic ventures (and plenty of mankinds achievements) have evolved because of influences, competition and ideas flowing freely, backwards and forwards. Feel free to pick anything we've ever created, and there will be a similar story behind its conception and creation, naysayers included.

See all those anime fans, who've based their art on Naruto and Bleach? Are you seriously saying its okay for them to be influenced by anime/manga, into creating their own works, but not the creators of Avatar, Young Justice, Teen Titans etc? Unfortunately creativity doesn't work that way, thank god. You can't decide for others, who or what to be influenced by, as that's down to the individual or group. Your opinion will be noted, mind.

I have been an anime/manga fan for many years, and draw influences from various artists, writers I like and appreciate, and not all of those are from anime/manga/games. The success of Avatar is a positive thing for the whole industry. It keeps people in work, and fans entertained. Criticising it harshly, based on the fact its learning and taking influences from anime in a positive way (when early anime studios did thing to Disney, as that's how art and ideas work), while telling a good story, isn't fair and is just petty, frankly.

All art, music, theatre etc would not be what it is today, without such an open two way street. or perhaps more of a circle of inspiration, competition and creativity. Get used to it, as that's not going to change because some dislike it, and want to make what they love (anime,manga) a closed minded island.

@Marik
I too like Warner animation of late. Young Justice is cool, and recent Batman OAVs have been cool too. Looking forward to the Dark Knight one. I really think that once we get more original non-super hero works, like Avatar, Korra and perhaps the recent Motor City, that's when American anime/animation stands up better for all. All they need is the viewers and fans to stay alive.