Can an american explain me their view on their military?

[Burst6]

We are no worse than animals. predatory animals kill things. Most predatory animals are trained from birth to hunt and kill other animals. Oftentimes in herds or packs of animals they even kill each other in disputes over mates or leadership and whatnot.

Humans fight other groups of humans to acquire resources or to be the best or prove they are the strongest. We kill each over all sorts of things just as animals. the only difference is we're smarter than animals so we developed tools that make killing easier. If animals were smarter they would do the same thing.

We are no better or worse than any animal.

Killing for survival and killing for the various reasons humans kill for are two totally different things- predatory animals kill their prey for survival, that's fine; humans kill cows and other domestic farm animals for beef and such, that's for survival and public health, so that's fine; but humans killing each other over... oil? Over some dispute over some little spit of land? Over gold? Does a human NEED gold to survive? No, thus the reason for killing is hollow.

And as for animals killing each other in disputes over mates and such- that's just one-on-one fights over personal problems, we're talking entire military action or whatever the equivalent in animals would be, if any could be considered, not 'That guy fucked my wife, so I'm going to kill him!'.

Well yeah the reason for killing is hollow, but that's nature. A lot of animals have violence for something other than survival (like dolphins).


The only reason most animals don't have wars is because most animals aren't smart enough to form massive groups. There are ones that do though. Ants, for example, or bees and wasps. There's a species of red ant that just rips through everything and invades as much as it can.

 

[New York Patrick]

I hold the U.S. military in the same regard as every other military- that they're armed men/women that are trained to kill or assist in killing, and the fact that we need such a group of people around at any given time is a testament to how humans can be WORSE than animals.

The soldiers themselves though, I treat them as any other human, nothing special.

Worse than animals? You do realize animals kill each other over territories and resources too right?

I do fully realize that, but do animals have so many of their own solely (spelling?) dedicated JUST to fight over territory and resources and not to, say, gathering food? Very few do, I can only think of ants and wolves- aren't humans supposed to be better, not the same or worse?

Have you ever heart of Wasps? ALL of their own are dedicated to fighting over territory and resources. This is true with MANY animals, insects, birds, etc. In fact, when predatory species are accidentally introduced to habitats they are non-native to, (which is NOT always our fault, don't even go there,) they have a tendency to drive native species to extinction and upset entire ecosystems.

Sounds a lot like certain human occurences, no?

Humans are not worse than animals. We are not perfect, but we are most certainly SUPERIOR to the animal kingdom. Name one wolfpack or anthill that has science, education, medicine, or the democractic process. I have yet to see bees argue with eachother on a grand scale whether or not their hive should provide subsidized healthcare to its workers, or see bears raise funds in support of less fortunate animals abroad.

Humanity is capable of creating cities, roadways, and works of art. Sure, spiders can build webs, but can they write poetry, create music... paint? No.

Are we better? Maybe that isn't the right word; We have our flaws, but the fact that I am typing this post, and the squirell somewhere in my backyard is not shows that we are not remotely comparable. Humans are so much more than animals, for better and for worse, and you had best remember that.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Social programming would be my short answer.

The military is hugely hyped in the American culture (which I am part of, before anyone jumps to the reply button for that). They 'bless' every sporting event with the presentation of the flag, the fly-over of jets (a HUGE waste of fuel/time/money if it didn't have such a strong psychological programming value). Commercials to join them glamorize being a soldier in the American Armed Forces as equivalent to being a better person - having a brighter future, being made of higher quality material than their peers, etc. Negatives about our military actions or the effects of combat on our soldiers are downplayed in the 'news' and victories and success stories are inflated by multiple replays from different angle attention across several shows news and non-news.

This overwhelming amount of programming is paired with the very concrete fact that many people know someone or are related to someone or went to school with someone or dated someone once (etc.) who is or was in the military. I myself can think of four people off the top of my head, who are in my life and the military and who I have thanked personally - and also remonstrated for taking up such a dangerous enterprise.

 

[Truth Cake]

Yeah, but lions kill each other all the time over simple matters of dominance...then they kill the loser's cubs too.

One-on-one bouts are personal, they have nothing to do with the species/country as a whole- fights of dominance aren't widespread throughout the entire lion army. (and before you or anyone else quotes me and says 'lion army? wtf?' obviously there is no lion army, that's my point)

 

[StarCecil]

America always instills an ideal of the American Soldier fighting for the sake of the citizens' freedom/ liberty/ life according to the "american dream".

I have a great amount of respect for members of the US military, though I don't share the belief that they are all heroes, and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that we have fought a war in the past fifty years against an enemy which posed any legitimate threat to our "liberties".

So the group al-queda isnt a threat to our freedom? and they are,were,whatever, a legit threat.

Is there enough of a chance of them successfully enslaving our country to warrant the trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives we have spent over the past decade trying to dismantle the group?

thats doesnt mean they wont try, hell they kill 3000 people in one day for no fucking reason.
thats a fucking legit threat.

And more to the point:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I had to raise my right hand and say this, in front of a Captain in the Army (joined for the Marines, but any officer or government official can give the oath). I had to swear to defend the Constitution of the United States.

That's the essence of the military. Taliban or no, Soviets or no. Each and every man and woman in the US military swore to stand in defense of everything the United States stands for.

 

[mega48man]

well, here i go

i respect every man and women who sign up for military, because in the words of my favorite president, taken out of context from one of my favorite speeches; i respect every man and women who sign up for military because they chose to do things "not because they are easy, but because they are hard".

i had a hard time typing this out without crying. i'm very inspired by the hard selfless choice those men and women make to protect me and my freedoms, even though i never asked them to.

now however, i'm a punk rocker at heart so i see the other side to it to. there's always an inspiring commercial for the the U.S. army, marines, and sometimes air force (but i've never seen a commercial for the navy). these commercials and everything else us americans see on TV are stapled to our brains to feed the hysteria that runs the larger society of this country. why else is justin beiber so popular? because the magazines and the TV said he's popular (even though he doesn't deserve to be) so the army using the TV to brainwash us, i don't even know why we're fighting, where we're fighting, or who we're fighting.

but i guess why being in the army is much more outstanding here than in denmark is because america's great generation (just about every old person who fought in world war 2) set this precedent that other generation had to look up to; a generation of heros who fought the necessary war. but now it's about 3-4 generations later (i'm 3 generations later) and we have no idea what the fuck's goin on.

 

[New York Patrick]

I think the main reason I and other fellow Americans have such reverence for our military is the large amounts of difficulty it requires to actually get to be a part of. Ask anyone in the military, and they will confirm that boot camp is really tough. So, in completing boot camp (be it for the marines, army, air force, etc), you have essentially placed yourself in the ranks of the elite who have braved and conquered their own weaknesses, and acquired a discipline only the military could offer. Also, I heard it's mad easy to get girls after you're in, so there's that.

Thats why Canada allways beats you at war games

We are letting you have those war games to throw you off. You will be over confident when we need to replenish our beaver and maple syrup supply.

We have Wolverine, your arguement is invalid.

 

[UrbanCohort]

America always instills an ideal of the American Soldier fighting for the sake of the citizens' freedom/ liberty/ life according to the "american dream".

I have a great amount of respect for members of the US military, though I don't share the belief that they are all heroes, and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that we have fought a war in the past fifty years against an enemy which posed any legitimate threat to our "liberties".

So the group al-queda isnt a threat to our freedom? and they are,were,whatever, a legit threat.

Is there enough of a chance of them successfully enslaving our country to warrant the trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives we have spent over the past decade trying to dismantle the group?

thats doesnt mean they wont try, hell they kill 3000 people in one day for no fucking reason.
thats a fucking legit threat.

And more to the point:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I had to raise my right hand and say this, in front of a Captain in the Army (joined for the Marines, but any officer or government official can give the oath). I had to swear to defend the Constitution of the United States.

That's the essence of the military. Taliban or no, Soviets or no. Each and every man and woman in the US military swore to stand in defense of everything the United States stands for.

Let us also not forget this little bit:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS: one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all."

Saying the PoA should be considered just as binding as anything.

 

[Qtoy]

I hold the U.S. military in the same regard as every other military- that they're armed men/women that are trained to kill or assist in killing, and the fact that we need such a group of people around at any given time is a testament to how humans can be WORSE than animals.

YEAH! How dare they kill living beings of the same species of them! That's way worse than animals because no other animal on Earth does that!

Yeah... way to completely miss the point of my argument- it's not the fact that the killing is being done, it's the REASON it's happening and the fact that we need such a power around to defend us in case some rich politician farts out of turn or whatever pathetic excuse a country needs to go to war.

When elephants declare war on mosquitoes for making an unsightly sore on their leader's skin, let me know.

Just out of curiousity, what's the human parallel for elephants declaring war on mosquitoes? Especially since those aren't the same sapient being.
And no. I understood your point, I just kinda dodged it in my response by mistake.

All the wars I can think of were declared for the interests of the group. Let's say that "A-Land" has a "MacGuffin" that helps drive a lot "B-Land" industries. "A-Land" eventually decides it's not in its best interest to continue the MacGuffin trade, so they cut off trade of the MacGuffins. This deprives "B-Land" of the MacGuffin, and the group begins a descent into poverty.
Poverty is bad and tends to hurt people. This results in "B-Land" exploring different ways of getting the MacGuffins.
It's obvious to "B-Land" that getting the MacGuffins would be made easiest by invading "A-Land". Moral qualms stop this, so they stop.

Eventually, "A-Land" gives reason for "B-Land" to attack them through one way or another. This allows "B-Land" to attack while having a hidden ulterior motive for attacking.

Now, you may be thinking that as I typed that, I completely lost my train of thought and just made an analogy and hoped that something would come out of it. If you thought that, you are totally correct. But, it worked. There is something.

Humans have morals. Animals (to the best of my knowledge) lack sapience and don't have morals. Morals hold humans back and keep humans from lashing out at others for the smallest wrongings. These morals also keep the moderate from allowing everyone from attacking due to lack of support.

I know this is a weak argument, but I did the best I could while half-asleep and a quarter zoned out.

Wow. I'm way off the original topic.

 

[Samurai Silhouette]

Now, on the subject of the actual military, and not the people involved, our military is seriously too damn big. We spend twice as much on our military as the entire European Union and China put together. I mean sure, we have the most technologically sophisticated military in the world because of it, but the fact that we spend so much money on it means that we can't spend money on other things. Hell, if we cut our military budget by just 20% we'd still have the best equipped military in the world, and then we could also pay for universal healthcare for every citizen without anyone needing to pay more taxes, as well as paying more for education, and still have enough money left over to slowly start eliminating our debt, but for some reason the morons in Washington refuse to even consider doing that.

I much rather have money thrown into better technology and equipment with the purpose of preserving the lives of those fighting for us. None of their lives are disposable. Better equipped they are, the better their moral. The more comfortable they feel about putting their lives on the line for us, the better they perform. Yeah, we can do with better funding on the civilian's side, but our lives aren't in potential or immediate danger.

 

[Raregolddragon]

Its the fact the Men in service choose to fight, in some cases there are some punks that get shipped in for a few years as a way to get out serving jail time but the idea that a man chose to put his life on the line and in way on hold to do what needs to be done.

 

[JezebelinHell]

-snip-

Has to do with two things imo. First, as you said in Denmark it is mandatory to serve. In the US it is voluntary. As such they are willing to sacrifice themselves for everyone else (thats one reason anyways). That, for most people, automatically makes them worthy of respect.

The other reason has to do with the reaction of civilians towards military personnel during and after Vietnam. Returning military were insulted and disrespected terribly. Looking back at it afterwards many people are appalled by it. This leads to the current population overcompensating to a degree.

I cannot believe it has taken until page 2 for someone to mention that our individual soldiers were completely disrespected after returning from Vietnam. They were spit on and booed upon returning, it really is shameful to watch footage of. A lot of those men were DRAFTED, not in the military even by choice and were treated poorly for it. We no longer blame the men that are preforming the duties and treat them with respect no matter what they are ordered do because they are volunteering their service for us. We hold the person giving the orders responsible or the person not following orders and proper conduct. We also do not generalize them by the actions of some bad ones in the bunch. There are bad ones in every type of bunch out there, really generalizing people as such shows your character not the people you are judging.

 

[StarCecil]

America always instills an ideal of the American Soldier fighting for the sake of the citizens' freedom/ liberty/ life according to the "american dream".

I have a great amount of respect for members of the US military, though I don't share the belief that they are all heroes, and it will be a cold day in hell when I believe that we have fought a war in the past fifty years against an enemy which posed any legitimate threat to our "liberties".

So the group al-queda isnt a threat to our freedom? and they are,were,whatever, a legit threat.

Is there enough of a chance of them successfully enslaving our country to warrant the trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives we have spent over the past decade trying to dismantle the group?

thats doesnt mean they wont try, hell they kill 3000 people in one day for no fucking reason.
thats a fucking legit threat.

And more to the point:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I had to raise my right hand and say this, in front of a Captain in the Army (joined for the Marines, but any officer or government official can give the oath). I had to swear to defend the Constitution of the United States.

That's the essence of the military. Taliban or no, Soviets or no. Each and every man and woman in the US military swore to stand in defense of everything the United States stands for.

Let us also not forget this little bit:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS: one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all."

Saying the PoA should be considered just as binding as anything.

One would hope. But it's not even required for a student to say it.

Of course, I would definitely fight for a student's right not to say it.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I appreciate them risking their lives for us but they are still stupid. Why would you risk your live for your country? Who says your country is always right and why do they have the right to send you out to risk your life while they sit back and watch?

 

[Truth Cake]

Well yeah the reason for killing is hollow, but that's nature. A lot of animals have violence for something other than survival (like dolphins).


The only reason most animals don't have wars is because most animals aren't smart enough to form massive groups. There are ones that do though. Ants, for example, or bees and wasps. There's a species of red ant that just rips through everything and invades as much as it can.

Dolphins kill each other for hollow reasons? Please elaborate, I'm eager to hear more.

Have you ever heart of Wasps? ALL of their own are dedicated to fighting over territory and resources. This is true with MANY animals, insects, birds, etc. In fact, when predatory species are accidentally introduced to habitats they are non-native to, (which is NOT always our fault, don't even go there,) they have a tendency to drive native species to extinction and upset entire ecosystems.

Sounds a lot like certain human occurences, no?

Humans are not worse than animals. We are not perfect, but we are most certainly SUPERIOR to the animal kingdom. Name one wolfpack or anthill that has science, education, medicine, or the democractic process. I have yet to see bees argue with eachother on a grand scale whether or not their hive should provide subsidized healthcare to its workers, or see bears raise funds in support of less fortunate animals abroad.

Humanity is capable of creating cities, roadways, and works of art. Sure, spiders can build webs, but can they write poetry, create music... paint? No.

Are we better? Maybe that isn't the right word; We have our flaws, but the fact that I am typing this post, and the squirell somewhere in my backyard is not shows that we are not remotely comparable. Humans are so much more than animals, for better and for worse, and you had best remember that.

Cool, I can argue both of these points at once! *Not* killing two brids with one stone because I don't physically harm other creatures, being both a pacifist and vegetarian (ironic how I work in a deli, isn't it?).

Animals kill each other, I understand, I said that in my original post in this topic- but it's all to SURVIVE; do ants kill each other for shiny rocks that really have no bearing on their ability to survive? (Gold, for example) No... they kill each other for food and resources they need to survive and thrive, because if they don't fight, then they die. The vast majority of human wars aren't a 'fight or die' situation, usually a 'fight or subjigate' situation or some variation, even worse, a fight due to greed.

And New York Patrick, you may want to re-read your own post there, in the beginning of the third paragraph you said humans are superior, and then later you say we're no better and then right in the same paragraph you say we are better again? You seem to be contradicting yourself there...

 

[Laser Priest]

Blind Loyalty, mostly.

I lived in America, and marines are all treated as war heroes. Apparently, all men who are willing to subject themselves to risk are heroes, whether or not their methods and actions are questionable and whether or not they even do what is expected of them.

I have no problem with the military itself. It has its heroes, it has its scum, just like everything else. I don't like the blind worship of it and the glorification of being a soldier that seems to be so prevalent.

They aren't the only country that does this, though, which the entire bloody world seems to forget.

 

[Kahnmir]

Basically what people have already said AND because in the past we've treated our military like **** (See: Rambo first blood) during the Viet-Nam era, when they really didn't deserve it, so a strong cultural movement against that kind of thinking got started to put a stop to a lot the crap people were doing to soldiers (spitting on returnees, stuff like that).

 

[Animyr]

Volunteers, historical importance in securing the nations power, current importance in maintaining nations power, gun culture that assosiates weapons with empowerment and hence freedom(also important over here), patriot veneration, lots of positive media, defensive nature of wars (even the offensive wars we wage are to prevent anything from touching the mainland, and usually people are willing to forgive deaths and/or atrocities that were committed for their safety).

Not that it doesn't draw critisism, but generally speaking the military is, if anything, the only socially invincible institution in american society. It can do no wrong (again, not exactly true, but it's the closest you'll get over here). McCarthyism comes to mind; if I remember correctly, it died when it touched the military.

 

[StarCecil]

Now, on the subject of the actual military, and not the people involved, our military is seriously too damn big. We spend twice as much on our military as the entire European Union and China put together. I mean sure, we have the most technologically sophisticated military in the world because of it, but the fact that we spend so much money on it means that we can't spend money on other things. Hell, if we cut our military budget by just 20% we'd still have the best equipped military in the world, and then we could also pay for universal healthcare for every citizen without anyone needing to pay more taxes, as well as paying more for education, and still have enough money left over to slowly start eliminating our debt, but for some reason the morons in Washington refuse to even consider doing that.

I much rather have money thrown into better technology and equipment with the purpose of preserving the lives of those fighting for us. None of their lives are disposable. Better equipped they are, the better their moral. The more comfortable they feel about putting their lives on the line for us, the better they perform. Yeah, we can do with better funding on the civilian's side, but our lives aren't in potential or immediate danger.

And also, many military technologies become quite useful on the civilian side. Flight was given major backing as a viable military tool and became a reliable system of civilian transport consequently. The Internet as we know it was devised a means for military installations to maintain contact after a nuclear attack.

 

[Ympulse]

We should be seen as higher citizens on the social paradigm, but unfortunately fall into this viewpoint of one of the following (Note, I was in. This is a very, very accurate portrayal as to how society see's the modern day military):

- Unintellgent kids who couldn't get into college.
- Unintelligent kids who didn't give a shit and just "joined" because they had no future.
- People who get into trouble and forced into it through law.
- Minorities who didn't have any other avenue.
- The lower levels of society who aren't worthy of the ivy league merits.

In other words...we are the bloody shitheap in the eyes of this damn nation. Underpaid, undervalued, and seen as expendable. No one gives a shit about us and we're just there to "die for them" because we didn't "prove our worth" and "had to join the military".

There.
You know the Nights Watch from "A Song of Ice and Fire". Yeah. It's like that minus the zombies and magic.

Speaking as a former Marine, this hits the nail on the head.

While I don't think that 'we' should be on a higher social paradigm, I do think that we are treated worse than most.