Canada Added to U.S. Piracy Watch List

cobrausn

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Khell_Sennet said:
I swear, some days I would fully endorse a war against the US just to prove (for the second time) that we aren't a nation to be fucked with.
Ha. Seriously. To quote Futurama, we've already showed the world "what a bloated, runaway military budget can do."

Besides, only we seem to declare war on anything these days. You know, drugs, terrorism, radical Islam, freedom, financial security...

Edit:

Ooh! One More!

the middle class...
 

cleverlymadeup

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Therumancer said:
a bunch of misinformed and stupid stuff as usual so i'll snip it
ok let's look at how misinformed you are

1. american trade relies on canada and has for MANY years, even before the first free trade and then NAFTA

2. Canada does NOT have rampant piracy, we DO have CONSUMER RIGHTS, such as paying a levy on ALL recordable media so we can LEGALLY copy our stuff. like if i want to borrow a cd from a friend and then burn it onto my own cd, that's perfectly legal cause i paid a levy that gets funneled back to media companies

3. Canada has WAY more forward thinking that america, our banks actually REFUSED a bailout or even extra money we had laying around to give them because they aren't in financial ruin

4. Canada's military is the equivalent of american special forces and is one of the most feared armies in the world. i do believe our militia at one point held off the americans and then with the help of the British burned down Washington DC

5. America has tried to weasel out of EVERY single NAFTA issue that hasn't gone it's way and whined and bullied everyone to make things go their way, check out the soft lumber issue

6. we do have intellectual properties laws, except we are also very consumer focused, ie rights of the people as well as those of the corporations

7. it is illegal in Canada for corporations to formulate and draft laws and have them passed, not so much in the states

8. we do recognize patents and patent holders but there are a lot of them that are invalid in Canada due to our laws, much like the rest of the world

seriously you should actually become a LOT more informed before you go ranting and raving because you have no clue what you are talking about a lot of the time
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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I'm actually VERY well informed about Canada, despite what Canadians might want to believe. However I think you misunderstand the US more than a bit.

For starters, the Canadian military is basically a joke. It DOES produce a lot of fairly well trained people, but then again a lot of their training actually comes from us. Mostly Canada's "military" is only a factor when brought in as token support to other, larger groups. Canada might be able to launch a war of terror if they wanted to, but the Canadian military is incapable of any signifigant, sustained action.

Like it or not, military conflict comes down to the number of boots you can put on the ground, despite what a lot of people might want to think. Yes, perhaps Canada's few full time soldiers train more heavily than the majority of troops in the US, but we have special forces outselves that are probably better and also outnumber Canadas. It's just that our military is designed to be large enough to get things done.

Now during the Clinton Era, there was some thinking that we could go with a smaller, more highly trained force. He managed to make money and lead the US through a fairly prosperous period by basically gutting the American military and intelligence services. One of the things that made Bush less than popular was the way how he revealed the error of this thinking and also had to do some pretty unpleasant things to fix the problem. We basically wound up needing to tap our reserves to do something the regular military should have done, and even then we've had trouble with a police action (admittedly also because of our morality on the field). God forbid we actually had to try and occupy someone for real
right now.

However I repete, when 9/11 went down people were driving through empty Canadian military bases. Canada might have some highly trained troops out in the field somewhere supporting other forces, and a few others at home as a point of national pride, but basically Canada doesn't usually maintain any kind of signifigant military force. It hides behind the US because basically anyone who comes accross the ocean to get to North America has to content with the US Navy, and for anyone coming up from South or Central America they have to come through Mexico and then the US.

As far as the British burning Washington, I believe that was the War of 1812 which is one of the biggest jokes in military history. Yes they did burn down the White House. Basically what happened was Britan decided to come in and teach the US a lesson and try and take parts of it back. They basically decided it wasn't something they could do and left, in part because they were so heavily overextended.

The War of 1812 if I remember was based on the mistaken belief that there were a lot of British loyalists who would rise up to help support the troops. This never happened, in part because all of the "whigs" were murdered shortly after the revolution. The fighting was minimal, and saw wonderful occurances like "The Battle Of Stonington" (which occured not too far from where I live). That was a battle in which an astronomical amount of ammo was fired by both sides, 11 people were injured, and the British basically decided like most of the actual battles in the so-called war "frak this, we're going home". Down here in New England you'll see little plaques and cannons and stuff in front of town halls and stuff that commemerate a lot of "nothing much happened" battles.

This leads to a lot of people saying "The US are idiots for thinking they won that war" and the US pretty much saying "anyone who says we didn't win are idiots because we're still here". In reality it was a lot of idiots posturing and wasting ammo on both sides, the president needing a new house, and people figuring enough people were involved so we might as well try and make it more signifigant than it really was.

-

At any rate all jingoism aside, back to the actual subject. :p

I believe you yourself illustrate why there is a problem. Nations passing laws claiming that they do not have to respect the patents of others and then enriching themselves on someone else's work. Which incidently happens to be wrong and the entire issue before the World Court since there ARE supposed to be international laws that only some people respect to prevent exactly that kind of thing. Nations like China for example becoming world powers due to what amounts to theft.

Saying "hmmm well we toss a pittence to the music companies as part of a sale to cover the copying" just doesn't quite cut it if your going to argue things in an overt fashion. But then again I'm staying away from music and video games (despite what was mentioned directly) specifically because I think those industries are borked, and could resolve a portion of their piracy problems (or at least get more respect) if they amended some of their own policies and such.

Of course if these companies actually AGREED to that with Canada it's something else entirely, but the tone implies that they didn't. :)

Overall though, the entire point is that Canada is being told to get with the program. How they resolve their issues internally is their matter for the most part. The idea being that as "Little America" if they get their act together on the big issues the little ones will probably be overlooked. Also when the chips fall, America will also wind up protecting Canada from the repercussions so far when it comes to other nations.

See the idea being that when the World Court makes a ruling chances are the East and West go to war. There is little chance of Canada surviving if the East Wins (ie it would have died in the crossfire long before them as an ally). If the West Wins and the world is pretty much intact, it's going to come down to those nations that were violating patents not only being forced to stop, but being held accountable for the losses. If Canada has been playing ball nobody is going to come walking in and say "here's your bill" and the US won't be allowing Euro-Powers do it based on patents of theirs you might have violated (or things you purchused from those that were).

Not the best articulated it can be, but the bottom line is that Canada has been exempt from this treatment, and is not getting a warning. The fact that we treat Canada differantly from other nations doing the same thing being a problem.

See for all comments about independance, when the chips are down nations like China can turn around and basically say "well what point is the US trying to make, their satellite nations are some of our best customers and the US hasn't done anything about that".

The most touchy part about all this of course being my rant about worldwide warfare. But I'm one of those people who genuinely believes we're heading there. The increasingly interwoven nature of business doesn't mean warfare won't happen, simply that when it does occur it's going to be over things like trade and patent rights, rather than resources and politics.

>>>----Therumancer--->

BTW> Also, corperations cannot pass laws. I have no idea where you get that idea. The most they can do is form PACs (Political Action Committees) and spend a lot of money campaigning for something that they want to see. That's part of freedom (the abillity to organize and try and get what you want within the system). The issues involved in this mostly come with abuses where despite prohibations the PACs (corperate or otherwise) lavish gifts and money on the political office holders for specific rulings (rather than simply campaigning), or find ways of donating more to a given politician's campaign for office than is legally allowed.

Now yes, there is a lot of corruption in the system, and we ourselves make a big deal about it andt try and deal with it. Don't even try and tell me that Canada is beyond political corruption. Canadian politics is just as bad as anywhere else, and the US isn't worse than anywhere else. It's just that the dirty laundry of the US gets aired more because everyone is interested as we're the global superpower pretty much playing "hated beat cop" for the world population. Most nations just don't get their crap aired on CNN, and even if it wa most people outside of their area wouldn't care since they aren't as big a factor globally as we are.
 

Andy Chalk

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Nov 12, 2002
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I haven't read any of these great walls of text but I think I get the gist of what's being said and I'm pretty sure the conversation is completely off the rails at this point. But if we put a hold on the nationalist dick-measuring for a moment (it's fun, I know, but it tends to distract from real discussion) then we can consider this more rationally.

Being added to the USTR list is trickier for Canada that for most other countries because of our proximity to the US and our inherently interwoven economies. It's harder to ignore this kind of nonsense and it definitely gives the US leverage in pressing their case against us. But that same close relationship also gives Canadian governments a certain degree of leverage against focused, special-interest political efforts as well.

Smart Canadian politicians know how to make that work. When the Americans were assembling their "coalition of the willing," Canada said no and the US complained very little about it. Why? We sent guys to Afghanistan instead. Canadian politicians are happy because they get to score points at home by telling the Americans to get bent; the Americans are happy because it's really all just one big war anyway and if our guys are in Afghanistan that means they can put more of their guys in Iraq. It's a balancing act. You give, you take.

The USTR has us on a list. The US government also knows damn well that when it comes to intellectual property crime, we're not the real problem. They'll use the list to put a little squeeze on somewhere; we'll find some way to throw them a bone while making it look like we're not giving them anything and give a little squeeze somewhere else. It's an endless political game, the inevitable result of sleeping next to the elephant.
 

cleverlymadeup

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Therumancer said:
I'm actually VERY well informed about Canada, despite what Canadians might want to believe. However I think you misunderstand the US more than a bit.

For starters, the Canadian military is basically a joke. It DOES produce a lot of fairly well trained people, but then again a lot of their training actually comes from us. Mostly Canada's "military" is only a factor when brought in as token support to other, larger groups. Canada might be able to launch a war of terror if they wanted to, but the Canadian military is incapable of any signifigant, sustained action.
WRONG, the americans come train with Canada and they get their asses handed to them on a regular basis

the fact of the matter is this in ANY armed conflict if something can't be done, they send in the Canadians because we get stuff done and our soliders are a bunch of tough and crazy bastards and i guess bitches now too


Like it or not, military conflict comes down to the number of boots you can put on the ground, despite what a lot of people might want to think. Yes, perhaps Canada's few full time soldiers train more heavily than the majority of troops in the US, but we have special forces outselves that are probably better and also outnumber Canadas. It's just that our military is designed to be large enough to get things done.
wrong out army is on par if not better than most of your special forces, ie rangers and seals. the only 2 groups better are the SAS and the Gurkhas. funnily enough the only ones that say that's not true are americans, even the British army is scared to mess with the Canadian army


However I repete, when 9/11 went down people were driving through empty Canadian military bases. Canada might have some highly trained troops out in the field somewhere supporting other forces, and a few others at home as a point of national pride, but basically Canada doesn't usually maintain any kind of signifigant military force. It hides behind the US because basically anyone who comes accross the ocean to get to North America has to content with the US Navy, and for anyone coming up from South or Central America they have to come through Mexico and then the US.
seriously dude your ignorance astounds me, i'll go ask my friends and family in the army how "small" of a force we have, even during the 9/11 attacks we still had a fairly good sized standing army and no empty bases, tho i'll suggest you try to drive thru a Canadian military base and see what happens

here's a good article that maybe you should read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_armed_forces

please go and READ it before you say how "informed" you are because you aren't


As far as the British burning Washington, I believe that was the War of 1812 which is one of the biggest jokes in military history. Yes they did burn down the White House. Basically what happened was Britan decided to come in and teach the US a lesson and try and take parts of it back. They basically decided it wasn't something they could do and left, in part because they were so heavily overextended.

The War of 1812 if I remember was based on the mistaken belief that there were a lot of British loyalists who would rise up to help support the troops. This never happened, in part because all of the "whigs" were murdered shortly after the revolution. The fighting was minimal, and saw wonderful occurances like "The Battle Of Stonington" (which occured not too far from where I live). That was a battle in which an astronomical amount of ammo was fired by both sides, 11 people were injured, and the British basically decided like most of the actual battles in the so-called war "frak this, we're going home". Down here in New England you'll see little plaques and cannons and stuff in front of town halls and stuff that commemerate a lot of "nothing much happened" battles.

This leads to a lot of people saying "The US are idiots for thinking they won that war" and the US pretty much saying "anyone who says we didn't win are idiots because we're still here". In reality it was a lot of idiots posturing and wasting ammo on both sides, the president needing a new house, and people figuring enough people were involved so we might as well try and make it more signifigant than it really was.
ok so let's look at this simply

the objective of the war of 1812 was manifest destiny, to take over Canada and the vast majority of North America.

what was achieved

the Canadian Militia held off the American troops until Britain came in and pushed back the American troops and razed the capital. so the objective of gaining ground was NOT ACHIEVED and in fact they LOST ground, which means they LOST THE WAR

for you to call it bs only goes to show how sore of a loser you actually are about the whole thing, Canada actually doesn't say they won the war, we call it a stalemate



See the idea being that when the World Court makes a ruling chances are the East and West go to war. There is little chance of Canada surviving if the East Wins (ie it would have died in the crossfire long before them as an ally). If the West Wins and the world is pretty much intact, it's going to come down to those nations that were violating patents not only being forced to stop, but being held accountable for the losses. If Canada has been playing ball nobody is going to come walking in and say "here's your bill" and the US won't be allowing Euro-Powers do it based on patents of theirs you might have violated (or things you purchused from those that were).
really so America respects the World Court? hmmm something about soft lumber and the NAFTA agreement just doesn't sit right

see the thing is America waves the World Court in everyone's face when it makes decisions in it's favour, however when it rules against America, they cry foul and totally ignore the ruling, which has been done on MANY occasions

Not the best articulated it can be, but the bottom line is that Canada has been exempt from this treatment, and is not getting a warning. The fact that we treat Canada differantly from other nations doing the same thing being a problem.
yes we are treated differently because without Canada you wouldn't have most of your industries at all or they would have went bankrupt a LOT sooner than they did. the fact is America wouldn't survive without Canada and well we'd do pretty darn good without you


BTW> Also, corperations cannot pass laws. I have no idea where you get that idea. The most they can do is form PACs (Political Action Committees) and spend a lot of money campaigning for something that they want to see. That's part of freedom (the abillity to organize and try and get what you want within the system). The issues involved in this mostly come with abuses where despite prohibations the PACs (corperate or otherwise) lavish gifts and money on the political office holders for specific rulings (rather than simply campaigning), or find ways of donating more to a given politician's campaign for office than is legally allowed.
actually they can and DO have laws drafted for law makers to then pass, wasn't it Jack Thomspon who just had a law he drafted for Utah struck down? yes i think he did have just that.

there are a ton of other intellectual property laws and other such laws that were drafted by lobby groups and handed over to congressmen with big fat bonuses attached to them

seriously dude you need to go do a LOT more reading cause proving you wrong is way too easy

as for Canada and it's intellectual property rights, go read up on a man called Micheal Geist, he's the Canadian version of Larry Lessig, whom i think you should also read up on and what he thinks about American copyright. the cool part is he might actually become the copyright czar for the states and then you'd see a LOT of changes to the horrid system they have in place right now
 

ontherisess

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Cleverly made up I agree with everything you've said except for this wrong out army is on par if not better than most of your special forces, ie rangers and seals. the only 2 groups better are the SAS and the Gurkhas. funnily enough the only ones that say that's not true are americans, even the British army is scared to mess with the Canadian army.

Why would the British army be scared to mess with the Canadian army if you yourself admit the British army are better? Though personally the British army or American army wouldn't stand a chance if a proper war broke out again rather than these shit little invading countries that can't even fight back. I'd also like to say that atleast 95% of British people (atleast the ones I know) absolutly hate America. However the British government couldn't care less about their citizens besides the ones on "disibility benefits" because they have a sore throat and as such unfortunatly if the Americans went to war with Canada our government would help the Americans even though we all hate them. Britain is America's ***** now tbh. Britain used to be the most succesful nation in the world until about 100 years ago or so when we started getting retarded prime ministers that decided to make all our lands independant and then started going on about health and safety and human rights constantly.

This is going a bit of topic now I know so I'll finish on this point. 3 of the worlds toughest men(if not the 3 toughest) are British some of their achievements are: only man to circumnavigate the globe on a yacht with only 1 man aboard; crossing the antartic on foot and chopping off their own fingertips to stop them getting frostbite. These 3 men now have a survival show on British TV. However when they tried to light a gas stove they were refused to, had to go through a lot of paper work and now have to have someone trained and proffesionally "qualified" to light a gas stove.

So yea the British couldn't do fuck all now adays.

Edit: also the Gurkhas, easily the most respectable people in the world who are in the British forces, have never had a woman in them. Not because they aren't aloud due to sexism but because the physical tests are so excruciating that out of tens of thousands of people a year wanting to get in only 100 pass the physical tests. Also the Gurkhas pride themselves on all members of them including engineers, drum players, tacticians and even the entertainers on base are fully trained in combat and can all pick up a weapon if need be. However now the British government are making it that a woman who wants to join the Gurkhas are exempt from doing the physical tests and must be let in whether or not there is a more qualified man rejected from doing it. And they do not need to be in anyway qualified to fire a rifle.

Not only this but they have refused Gurkhas for many years (still happening now) from once they have finished their fighting careers access to Britain. I'm sure they deserve it more than all the scumbags who've never worked a day in their life that are here now but it's a law that unless they have a life threatening injury that prevents them from fighting that they can proove happened during a military action or they have 25 years of service (extremly unlikely to be able to stay fit enough to stay in the Gurkhas for that long) or a bravery medal and 10 years of service they can not enter Britain.
 

stompy

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Edit: Sorry, my browser was playing up, so I made two posts about the same issue. The post I made a few posts down is a better argument, so if you'd kindly have a look there.
 

LokiSeto

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Jan 25, 2008
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Therumancer I would seriously stop or atleast apoligize and attempt at restating your case once you're fully informed. I can also say that not everyone is fully informed. I'm sure Khell and clevermadeup have missed some things but it's not jsut the mis-informed reasons which I suggest you apolize but just because of how you've stated your arguement. You've gone on several slippery slopes that could to lead to anything.

I will point out that yes you make a few good statments and your reasons could very well be right but not all of them. All this talk about the future and what will happen is very dangerous business. But so is talk about the past because the past is written from a baised point of veiw, just depends on where you get it.

If I were you I'd put away the snide remarks, and I'll apoligize for any that have been made by some of my fellow Canadians but they aren't getting you anywhere. Also the "little America" analogy doesn't seem to fly very well. Espceially since that means we will only ask the Americans for help and that when the chips fall down (from your predictions) we will be seen as nothing more than Americans. Not true and I would give many examples but I'm just trying to diffuse this.

I like a good arguement but only one that is cleanly constructed and well established. I'd like to see some evidence that our bases were empty, or some rebuttal to the evidence stacked against you in this argument. There is still the precident set that the US is not a nice neighbour clearly displayed by the Softwood lumber issue. Being in British Columbia I have alot of insight into that issue. Whereas the issue of Canada being a good neighbour, the hydro-electricy from both BC and Quebec and the beef issue set us apart.
 

stompy

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Therumancer said:
See the idea being that when the World Court makes a ruling chances are the East and West go to war.
The World Court (or, as I know it, the International Court of Justice) is part of the UN, acting to maintain world peace and prevent a world catastrophe like that of World War 2 occurring again. Anyways, the UN respects state sovereignty, placing it above the rulings by its bodies, something I think you've overlooked. For that reason, even if the World Court returns a verdict saying that copyright laws have to be followed, countries such as Russia, India, China and Canada can just ignore them, with no consequences from the UN.

Case in point: Australia v. France, New Zealand v. France [1974] ICJ Rep 257 (the Nuclear Tests case). France refused to acknowledge the authority of the ICJ, meaning they could ignore the verdict handed down by the judges without any sanctions.
 

uhgungawa

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Khell_Sennet said:
Dear Americans:

Do as Canada has done. We have gathered up all of the stupidity in Canada and concentrated it into one isolated place. We call it Newfoundland. It has worked wonderfully. I suggest you implement a similar measure, and save us all the hassle of dealing with retards such as the
We did, we call it Jersey. It hasn't worked as well as we thought it would. LOL
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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LokiSeto said:
Therumancer I would seriously stop or atleast apoligize and attempt at restating your case once you're fully informed. I can also say that not everyone is fully informed. I'm sure Khell and clevermadeup have missed some things but it's not jsut the mis-informed reasons which I suggest you apolize but just because of how you've stated your arguement. You've gone on several slippery slopes that could to lead to anything.

I will point out that yes you make a few good statments and your reasons could very well be right but not all of them. All this talk about the future and what will happen is very dangerous business. But so is talk about the past because the past is written from a baised point of veiw, just depends on where you get it.

If I were you I'd put away the snide remarks, and I'll apoligize for any that have been made by some of my fellow Canadians but they aren't getting you anywhere. Also the "little America" analogy doesn't seem to fly very well. Espceially since that means we will only ask the Americans for help and that when the chips fall down (from your predictions) we will be seen as nothing more than Americans. Not true and I would give many examples but I'm just trying to diffuse this.

I like a good arguement but only one that is cleanly constructed and well established. I'd like to see some evidence that our bases were empty, or some rebuttal to the evidence stacked against you in this argument. There is still the precident set that the US is not a nice neighbour clearly displayed by the Softwood lumber issue. Being in British Columbia I have alot of insight into that issue. Whereas the issue of Canada being a good neighbour, the hydro-electricy from both BC and Quebec and the beef issue set us apart.

Actually there isn't really any "evidence" involved in this at this point. All that has really happened is that I've made statements and guys like Cleverlymadeup have made statements.

It basically goes like this I say something, he says it's not true. I list reasons, he lists reasons. I'm basically sick of Canadian BS and US bashing so I do a bit of it on my own in reverse given the oppertunity. Needless to say Canadians object and respond with their own Jingoism in response. It's a bloody internet p@ssing contest, not anything especially serious. Geez.

We're talking about whose special forces guys can beat each other up. I comment that Canadians train with the US, he claims it's otherwise. Neither of us present any evidence. Now of course I *COULD* point out that in New London we have a Coast Guard Academy and not too far is a Subbase and in the past I've actually run into Canadians coming down here to train. I've also met a couple of guys who apparently trained at Fort Bragg and talked
about having to put the "Canucks" through their paces.

Generally speaking we compare notes, the Canadian military basically uses US training and hardware.

BUT of course this goes beyond the purview of the discussion. The more serious aspects are around copyright issues, and that discussion involves me admittedly reading into Obama's intent, and Canadians basically claiming they have the right to whatever they want, the developers of that technology and how much money was invested be damned.







>>>----Therumancer--->
 

LokiSeto

KUL Member
Jan 25, 2008
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Therumancer... honestly you're p!ssing into the wind here.

You skip the fact of composing your arguement and choose to wallow in the p!ssing contest. It's kinda obvious that some americans will train in Canada and some Canadians will train in America. But the same goes with most of our allies, as we share teaching, equipment and personel to better each other.

So throwing that out of the picture we'll get back to the intent that the US has in putting Canada on that List. And where you're getting this information that Canada is claiming that we have the right to do whatever we want. The evidence that we're trying to show you is that it's not Canada that's claiming "we have the right to do whatever we want" but it's the US, especially with the Free Trade and the Softwood lumber issue.

Yes this is an argument on the internet and could very well be very pointless but alot of the time arguments are like that. If you wish to carry on then I only ask that you form some sort of rebuttal instead of falling upon "in the future there will be WAR!".
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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stompy said:
Therumancer said:
See the idea being that when the World Court makes a ruling chances are the East and West go to war.
The World Court (or, as I know it, the International Court of Justice) is part of the UN, acting to maintain world peace and prevent a world catastrophe like that of World War 2 occurring again. Anyways, the UN respects state sovereignty, placing it above the rulings by its bodies, something I think you've overlooked. For that reason, even if the World Court returns a verdict saying that copyright laws have to be followed, countries such as Russia, India, China and Canada can just ignore them, with no consequences from the UN.

Case in point: Australia v. France, New Zealand v. France [1974] ICJ Rep 257 (the Nuclear Tests case). France refused to acknowledge the authority of the ICJ, meaning they could ignore the verdict handed down by the judges without any sanctions.
You and others miss the point entirely.

What is maintaining world peace is the lack of any ruling.

*IF* the world court (which is the term that I remember reading specifically) decides to rule in favor of China and other "robber nations" who are pirating and re-selling technology, then nations like the US and the more innovative European powers who are involved have no choice but to basically ignore the UN and go to war anyway.

See, the power base and wealth of a lot of nations is based on their superior technology and innovations. Nations like China have managed to get ahead and even begin to pull ahead in terms of economics and such largely by stealing from other nations. China is already a major world power, and is making a bid to become a Superpower (if it isn't one already) and supplant the US. It's military isn't quite up to snuff with the US *yet* but given enough time and money it eventually will be, and given Chinese manpower (in the end any conventional warfare is won by boots on the ground) this presents a serious threat.

Consider also that nuclear weapons have remained the dominant force ensuring world peace for a long period of time already. With developments in information warfare, and increasing defensive technologies against Satellites we're looking at a situation where the reign up the ICBM is eventually going to come to an end. Nuclear weapons will of course still remain a factor to some extent, but if the nuclear stalemate ends it opens the door for China to expand, and it will do so because it needs the living space due to overpopulation. Nuclear weapons are arguably what keeps them in check.

The world tends not to think ahead quite as far as the US does, which is arguably why we're in charge and act as the global police.

We ultimatly have a vested interest in maintaining control of our patents and technologies and making the world pay for what they take from us. Especially when nations are enriching themselves, and becoming directly competitive with us due to theft it becomes a problem.

Ultimatly NO desician the World Court can make will work, except to hold off making a judgement. If the rule in favor of nations like China, then those being victimized have to pull out of the UN and go to war. If they rule in favor of the nations that developed these technologies and hold the patents, then to pay the damages and such would ultimatly bankrupt these rising world powers and reduce them back to second and third world nations, from their perspective that would be unacceptable and they would have no choice but to fight.

Arguably people have been talking about the East/West conflict and what a powder keg it is for a long time. Things are going to come to a head, and I expect such a ruling is very likely to become the spark that sets it off.

I'll also be brutally honest, one of the reasons why we're kicking around The Middle East is all about oil. See, discussions about alternative power sources are well and good but most of the world runs on oil, and military hardware most certainly does. *IF* we basically control the oil we have an decisive advantage over anyone we come up against since we'd have the world's largest supply. China is already getting very thirsty for it since they can't get enough to power their expansion at it's current rate. They need it from everywhere.

Now remember what I said about "boots on the ground". The truth is that the US does not have the manpower, especially now, to successfully defend all those oil fields while fighting a war. This is one of the reasons (as foolish as it is on a lot of levels) we are trying to "win the peace" in some of these Middle Eastern nations (with mixed results) this is a big part of why we went into Iraq despite everything else. If we can convince the people down there to back us, that means anyone moving into the region in an international war is going to have to contend with the population which would be selling to us, and defending their territory if anyone else decided to invade. This is why it's such a touchy subject, and arguably our failures represent an overall strategic loss.

The idea in part is manuvering for this conflict to be ready if (or rather when) it goes down.

It's not the only factor of course, but it's one of the factors. This is why people talk about how the war is over oil, yet we haven't annexed any oil fields. A lot of people object to the actions in the region since they feel that we're spending a lot of money and lives to try and prepare for a conflict that could never happen (like many here). Of course this is not the area of discussion that happens publically. You have to read between a lot of lines.

Also given some of the policies of the US (which I feel are too nice on a lot of levels to begin with) we're increasingly unpopular. Basically nobody like the police until they actually need them. The world is quick to forget what communism did to things like the USSR and other failed regimes. Being on the losing end of a capitolist enviroment makes Communism seem very attractive as the grass is always greener on the other side of the pasture. Like many people seeking a "people's revolution" they tend to think that things will change for them under communism, when in general the people at the bottom stay at the bottom, albeit they gain less abillity to climb up from the bottom even given the tools that would have allowed for social climbing in a more free, capitolist enviroment.

At any rate China sells people knock offs of the goods that the US produces, giving things that they would not otherwise have, and talks a good game in opposition to the US. This makes them increasingly popular. It makes people quick to overlook their civil rights atrocities even when they are reported, and their exploding population combined with increasingly militant desires to obtain more living space, and a gradually developing military that might be able to gain this for them, fueled by that same trade.

It's all about short term gain, and thinking.

Or at least that's my opinion, I expect people to disagree. Right now a decent number of people simply care about what puts a TV in their house, and gets them cheaper drugs and things that they could not otherwise afford. From that perspective it's easy to resent a country whose people have all these things, and are telling them that they can't (or shouldn't) be able to have them, no matter what the reasoning is.

But basically the point is that the pretension of authority in the UN is what is helping to maintain the current status quo. Any solid desician on issues like this is not going to be respected by either side, it simply can't be. Your talking about the balance of power here. Any way it goes, someone is in all likelyhood going to quit the UN and have to take actions to stop the other side, and then it's all downhill from there.




>>>----Therumancer--->
 

uhgungawa

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Mar 19, 2009
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LokiSeto said:
Snip...
If you wish to carry on then I only ask that you form some sort of rebuttal instead of falling upon "in the future there will be WAR!".
But we're still pissed over the Canadian Bacon thing. IT'S HAM DAMN IT, AND THIS MEENS WAR!!!!!! :cool: