LokiSeto said:
Therumancer said:
Eh... not really listenning to reason and it does take two to tango, in other words if you wish to continue and acknowledge the flame war then there very well will be.
Therumancer I can understand the point you've brought forth about war being a possiblity in the future. But you yourself have strayed quite abit from the topic at hand.
Tell me. How will putting Canada on this list actually help in preventing the alienation of an ally of America and prepare ourselves for this grand war you speak of? I am still looking at this thinking that America claims to do whatever they wish when it gives them an advantage over other countries and does not expect to repay it's debt. This list is exactly that. America saying something and expecting every country to believe that it's the only way and that whatever we're doing is not good enough and need to follow Americas foot steps to become a utopia free of piracy.
Also one last thing... In the end an arguement on any plane of exsistence, internet or in real life, can become pointless. It all depends on the people argueing and if they choose to see the valid points that both (or more) sides make.
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Well mostly I do not respond by counter-flaming. I just point out the immaturity (as I feel it helps make whatever point I'm making to any third party observers who might just be lurking and undecided). I then let the mods handle things if they feel the need. I rarely if ever make direct complaints about anyone through private mail to mods or whatever.
When I think things are getting too out of hand though I typically stop posting on a subject. I do not need the last word so to speak, and have no idea to spread chaos. Being in this situation with some frequency is the result of having such a... strong personality.
As far as adding Canada to this list, it's intended as a warning to start changing it's policies. In the end it's not really an ally if it's insistant on being part of the problem. I believe approaching them on this front is meant to be a serious hint that they should be getting their act together on who they trade with.
As far as America's attitudes go, like everyone else we're trying to maintain our status and standard of living. Though unlike most dominant world powers before us, we are trying to do so without outright conquest through force. America's success is largely based on it's innovations and control of technology. We've been willing to share it (as opposed to keeping it to ourselves) but expect to reap benefits from doing so. Other nations have similar attitudes.
The problem is of course that a lot of the world sees America like a cop (unpopular, but hopefully there when you need them). They also tend to think that we're basically invincible, endless, and omnipresent (if they aren't seeking to replace us and have their culture dominate). We have a lot of stuff, and they feel they can whack off bits and pieces here and there "because we're greedy" and the US will still be there to do whatever they need. The short term benefits of dealing with China being worthwhile since the knock offs and such improve their standard of living, and if things go wrong the US will allegedly still be there to come in and save the day.
As far as our debts go, well part of the problem is of course that we've been borrowing money from nations that had that money because they arguably "stole" it from us. We're trying to be diplomatic about things on a lot of levels, and don't nessicarly see that money as actually being borrowed.
On top of that, when you get down to it the US also borrows money to maintain it's standard of living, AND provide needed services to the entire bloody planet via things like it's Navy, military, and humanitarian services. For all intents and purposes we are the UN. When problems occur, people do not typically go running to say France expecting help.
Arguably, we have long ago paid any debts through action that we might have incurred. Or such is the attitude I (and many others) subscribe to.
Don't get me wrong also, Canada, France, Spain, and other nations have all backed the US on a lot of important things. But that doesn't mean when dealing with a massive issue like this that we can let it slide since it can influance OUR survival as well as national balance (please note that I mean this generally, I believe France ultimatly comes down on our side on the overall patent issue, but they cause problems elsewhere).
See the thing is that if the US is chipped away at, while nations like China continue to prosper and grow (and honestly they are building a huge military, and there are only so many things they can do with that. At a time when other nations are downsizing and they are upsizing that is noticible), eventually your going to see a situation where those smiling Communists who were selling you cheap toasters and TVs, now want to live in your country under their goverment. Despite what history might have you belive Hitler was viewed as a great guy and had overwhelming support in the countries he took over. He wasn't viewed as a monster to begin with, it's the friendly and popular guys that seem too good to be true that are an issue. The US has it's problems, but we're certainly not too good to be true, that's because we're genuine for the most part. We've also seen this kind of thing before and want to stop it. Face it, we stopped our isolationist policies specifically because of the world paying too much attention to the short term and paying huge prices for it.
... and nobody promised a Utopia, although we would like to unite the globe under our principles (mostly through the spread of ideas, even though some military force would doubtlessly have to be used), that's a long term goal (which I've talked about before).
Right now though, the "piracy" issues come down to the bigger patent issues and in the end it's all about nations, including our allies, putting short term gain (trading with China rather than buying more expensively from the correct patent holders) before the long term repercussions, and also hurting us in the process.
Am I arrogant about America? Certainly. But then again when the chips are down, who is it that is going to save your A$$?
I see the whole situation as being akin to a young child insisting on eating too many cookies despite his parents telling him not to. Canada is basically throwing a tantrum because they've had a cookie swiped (being put on the piracy watch list) and is getting a warning not to give themselves a tummy ache.
At any rate I'm pretty much done with this, because I figure it will just go downhill. Everyone has said what they have to say, and not much is going to change between the vocal posters.
>>>----Therumancer--->
