Christopher Dorner first drone target on U.S. soil.

[Commissar Sae]

Hitting war targets, even when there is collateral damage, is a completely different being from executing criminals without trial. For fuck's sake, a century ago hitting civilian targets like cities was considered the best war strategy, this idea that civilians are sacred and should be left out of it is a very recent fabrication of our society.

Wrong. Leaving civilians out of war was a 17th to 19th century construction. They were seen as spoils of war and killing them all was counterproductive. The late 18th and most of the 20th century saw active targeting of civilians as a tactic to reduce civilian morale and break the enemy's ability to produce.

In many ways we have been trying to return to that type of thinking because of the outright barbarity of the last century.

 

[Wraith]

I wonder what would happen if he did use that shoulder-mounted missile he claims to have to shoot down the drone. Does the conflict escalate to an AC-130 pelting the area? Because I have to admit that sounds kind of awesome. Ridiculous, but awesome.

From what I understand his kill-streak isn't high enough for that.



I'm a bad person.

 

[Mykal Stype]

I hate it when people do stuff like the OP is doing: not researching at all and reacting to words, not meaning. In this case, the word "drone." I'm very against drone strikes, but at least know enough to know that there are multiple types of drones, with this one being surveillance. This is perfectly fine by me as they are chasing down a well armed criminal through the woods. I'm not expecting the police to send ground troops off to play a game of Marco, Polo, Bullets.
Also, do you really think that the government would start cluster bombing a guy on US soil. People are already screaming like chickens with their heads chopped off about freedoms that aren't being taken away in the first place. Drone strikes wouldn't exactly help the government's image.

 

[emeraldrafael]

It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border. The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. Dorner, who has military training, is believed to be hiding in the wilderness of California's San Bernardino Mountains, where locating him without air support may be all but impossible.

Credit: http://now.msn.com/christopher-dorner-is-first-drone-target-on-us-soil

Welcome to the days of Government executions my fellow Americans. In what way is it just for them to kill a man with out a fair trial? It's clear now the LAPD and the Government don't want to do the lawful thing and capture Dorner alive, they want a body. Murderer or not, Dorner is still a United States citizen and is entitled to a trial.

Your thoughts, Escapist?

thats not actually what the article says. if you want to quote something you should generally quote it right, not paraphrase. I'm pretty sure they're only using the drone more for the search part more than the destroy. while the US government has put people to death under shady means, this is by no means the start of the days of government executions (if anyhitng that's already started, and long ago with death sentences in prisons).

it also goes on to say he may not be the first person to have a drone used to find him.

<spoiler=Besides, how you think this is going to shoot missiles I have no idea>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V90OkAnERH0/TyGPq3NM2PI/AAAAAAAAOAE/SwMe_O5yvI8/s1600/0126124.jpg
I know science is scary and making huge leaps and bounds, I'm doubting they're going to blast him away with anything they can attach to it.

and according to a source I found they're not using one

The world does not need fear mongering at the moment.

 

[Evil Smurf]

So Obama is a war criminal like bush? *le sigh*

I knew this already by the way.

 

[The Critic]

It doesn't actually seem like they're using the drone to target him for a kill, rather it just seems like they're using it to find him; which, as far as UAV use on American soil goes, is nothing new.

You know, come to think of it, there was a good TIME article on this subject a couple weeks ago, the basis of it was pretty much that the technology of drones is growing faster than our speed at creating laws concerning their use. Seems kind of pertinent to the OP's intended point, but in this situation, the drone use is sticking pretty well to established precident.

It's official: The drone war has come home to America. Wanted fugitive Christopher Dorner, the homicidal former cop currently at war with the LAPD, has become the first known human target for airborne drones on U.S. soil. Their use was confirmed by Customs and Border Patrol spokesman Ralph DeSio, who revealed the government's fear that Dorner will make a dash for the Mexican border. The fugitive has already killed three people, according to police, and has a $1 million bounty on his head. Dorner, who has military training, is believed to be hiding in the wilderness of California's San Bernardino Mountains, where locating him without air support may be all but impossible.

Credit: http://now.msn.com/christopher-dorner-is-first-drone-target-on-us-soil

Welcome to the days of Government executions my fellow Americans. In what way is it just for them to kill a man with out a fair trial? It's clear now the LAPD and the Government don't want to do the lawful thing and capture Dorner alive, they want a body. Murderer or not, Dorner is still a United States citizen and is entitled to a trial.

Your thoughts, Escapist?

thats not actually what the article says. if you want to quote something you should generally quote it right, not paraphrase. I'm pretty sure they're only using the drone more for the search part more than the destroy. while the US government has put people to death under shady means, this is by no means the start of the days of government executions (if anyhitng that's already started, and long ago with death sentences in prisons).

it also goes on to say he may not be the first person to have a drone used to find him.

<spoiler=Besides, how you think this is going to shoot missiles I have no idea>http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V90OkAnERH0/TyGPq3NM2PI/AAAAAAAAOAE/SwMe_O5yvI8/s1600/0126124.jpg
I know science is scary and making huge leaps and bounds, I'm doubting they're going to blast him away with anything they can attach to it.

and according to a source I found they're not using one

The world does not need fear mongering at the moment.

And what do you know, it looks like the drones aren't even being used, anyways.

 

[Cpu46]

From the article:
In 2011, a North Dakota county sheriff used a drone to stalk three alleged cow thieves.
Tracking cow thieves with a drone... and that's not even in the South.
Although where does a county sheriff even get this stuff?

Drone can mean anything from a military surveillance drone to a relatively cheap (compared to military) quad rotored hobby drone with a camera. Met a guy with one of the later once. He had it self leveling and wind compensating with a gps tracker that he could use to keep it in place, had a camera and memory capable of up to an hour of low quality or 15 minutes of high quality video, and some pretty impressive range. He estimated spending $400-600 total on all the components over the course of a few years. Made me want to build one.

OT: Everyone getting a knee jerk reaction to the word drone nowadays. It makes me sad.

 

[the clockmaker]

So Obama is a war criminal like bush? *le sigh*

I knew this already by the way.

By the definition of war, war crime and also the subject of the thread, I think that your comment is less than relevant.

 

[michael87cn]

So... did everyone in this thread miss the news about him like a week ago where cops riddled a vehicle full of bullets because it -looked- like his? And nearly killed 2 innocent women in the process?

You think they're sending drones after him to 'bring him in'? They almost killed two innocent civilians by shooting first and investigating later. How long do you think they sat in their vehicle almost bleeding to death...?

Yeah, they're totally not going to track him down and murder him....

"It's just a flying camera" HAH!

 

[emeraldrafael]

Hmm. If this drone is only being used for tracking, is this guy really the first US citizen to be tracked this way? I'm no expert on this kind of thing, but it seems like this method of searching for a fugitive would've been used before.

From the article:
In 2011, a North Dakota county sheriff used a drone to stalk three alleged cow thieves.
Tracking cow thieves with a drone... and that's not even in the South.
Although where does a county sheriff even get this stuff?

yu ca get them from specialty companies. while looking up about drones used on US soil (and more specifically just for a picture of an LAPD drone) there was <url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/01/lapd-cracks-down-on-drone-aircraft-use-by-real-estate-agents.html>an article about how the LAPD didnt want real estate agents using them because they wanted to justify it as it ouwld just generally scare the shit out of everyone (Which it seems to be reading the comments of the OP's source) and takes up airspace as an UFO (Which in this post 9/11 world is something teh US or really any country shouldnt wwant to hear).

 

[the clockmaker]

This is all true, it's just that people have had more time to come to terms with those realities.

I am not in favour of capability limitation based on the public perception of the equipment.

Drones are still fairly new and the only times anyone has really heard about them is when they blow something/someone up somewhere else in the world.

Then people should not put forward an opinion based on that experience without first making even a cursory effort to widen their knowledge base. Example, radiation and radiation therapy.

All things told, I'm not even sure I trust the American military with armed drones, since they have tended to be rather quick on the trigger resulting in unfortunately frequent friendly fire incidents last time Canada fought alongside them.

Drones, as a close air support platform, actually have a lower rate of blue on blue incidents than conventional fast air. If you think about it what has more time to evaluate whether or not to strike, a drone lazily circling the battlespace or a jet moving faster than the speed of sound?

OT: OP is freaking out over nothing, as many others have noted. This is a surveillance drone and short of dive bombing him it is unlikely to cause any lasting harm other than inform the LAPD of his current wereabouts (which will probably expose him to an awful lot of lasting harm, since they are clearly out to kill him anyway.)

In all honesty I would have no problem with him being taken out by a drone, I know the police are supposed to operate on a different set of rules, but if he is A-Hostile, B-Armed and C-not conducting himself in accordance with the act of surrender, he looks like fair game to me. He knows the police are after him, he knows that he is armed, he knows the consequences of these actions.

In addition, part of the reason that drones are so successful in countering insurgents and, I suppose criminals, is that there is that element of dehumanisation. Not of the target in the eyes of the operator, but the operator in the eyes of the target. See, when you see a cop coming towards you, you see someone you can bargain with, bribe, trick, convince to be merciful etc etc. If you are so inclined, you can see them as a source of glory, because if you kill a cop, you are (and I stress that this is only in the eyes of the criminal community) a 'badass cop killer'.

Now, substitute that with a drone. In the eyes of the target, the drone cannot be bought, it can not be intimidated, it will not take pity on you. If you are hostile and not willing to surrender, it kills you, if you attempt to harm a civilian under its protection it kills you, if you rock about armed and should not be, it kills you. And if you manage to kill it, its operator swears, takes a sip of his coffee and sics another one on you.

For these reasons, armed drones could make very effective law enforcement tools.

 

[the clockmaker]

So... did everyone in this thread miss the news about him like a week ago where cops riddled a vehicle full of bullets because it -looked- like his? And nearly killed 2 innocent women in the process?

You think they're sending drones after him to 'bring him in'? They almost killed two innocent civilians by shooting first and investigating later. How long do you think they sat in their vehicle almost bleeding to death...?

Yeah, they're totally not going to track him down and murder him....

"It's just a flying camera" HAH!

Can you show evidence that the drone is armed? If not, how do they plan on using it to kill him.
To provide a comparison, your position is similar to seeing a police helicopter and immediately assuming that that helicopter is armed with hellfire missiles.

 

[Nieroshai]

Everything you've been calling paranoia, everything you've been calling us "teabaggers" for, everything that's just a "conspiracy theory" coming out of "deranged" right-wingers, is actually happening. Right in front of you. Funny how Glen Beck is still crazy when everything he's ever predicted in his paranoia is coming to fruition. I don't blame "Liberals" for this. I blame one man in specific, and everyone who's fallen for his image. President of the United States of America Barack Obama, and his entourage, are using you. They are slowly taking control of you. They are building their power. You are now witnessing him bypass the Constitution, and defending his right to do so! And only now that he's given the right to kill civilians without warrants, do any of you see what you've been trashing half the country for seeing.
Let me say it again: WE SAID HE WOULD TRY THIS!

Let me say this much: I am not saying that everyone who's even remotely left-leaning is bad, or responsible for this. I'm not outright supporting the right wing itself. What I'm saying is that this man, raised by a family who treated communism like a religion, is (surprise!) using KGB tactics to worm his way into your favor and exert control over a populace that has come to adore him. He is not the man he has made himself look like. Kennedy was a good man and a paragon of liberalism at the same time. Same with early Roosevelt (later on he fell in love with Uncle Joe's ideals). Obama isn't a Liberal. Obama isn't a Socialist. Obama is an anti-Western Communist. Denounce him and return to the true Liberalism that wants to benefit all of mankind, not destroy the many so that the few can feel better.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

To anyone saying he deserves a trial I have just have one question. The guy is clearly angry and armed heavily so how will they safely capture him and put him on trial?

 

[Arfonious]

To anyone saying he deserves a trial I have just have one question. The guy is clearly angry and armed heavily so how will they safely capture him and put him on trial?

Carefully. No matter who you are and what you have done you deserve a fair trial.

 

[the clockmaker]

snip

Can you show that the drone is armed? What is the inherent difference between a hostile killed by SWAT team operators and one killed by a drone?

America's been at this sort of thing since the Nixon days. America's been getting steadily worse ever since. Nixon may be dead but his spirit lives on. USA, USA, USA! *sarcastic tone*

Same question as above.

To anyone saying he deserves a trial I have just have one question. The guy is clearly angry and armed heavily so how will they safely capture him and put him on trial?

Carefully. No matter who you are and what you have done you deserve a fair trial.

If he is not conducting actions conducive to surrender, then fuck him. He can get a free trial when he stops trying to kill people. He can get a free trial when he throws down his guns, turns himself in and accepts that he is going on trial.

 

[the clockmaker]

DEA using multicam? The fuck for?

To the best of my recollection, they are using it for their raid teams. I may of course be wrong.

 

[Radoh]

Let me say it again: WE SAID HE WOULD TRY THIS!

What, using drones to survey an area looking for a man who has claimed he has anti-craft weapons so as to limit the loss of human pilots?
This strikes of you not reading the actual article just like the OP.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Heh...let's split this down the middle.

Anyone reckon it'd be cool if the unarmed surveillance drone could also arrest him? Like, it was armed with handcuffs and a baton and all?

 

[Neyon]

Stop being so paranoid and plainly racist. I never understood Americans when they go nuts when they hear about drone strikes on Americans. Do you honestly think the morality of using drone strikes, regardless of your opinion of them, changes purely because the target is a citizen of a particular country? Is an American life worth more than a Pakastani or Afghani life or something?