Or here's an idea; how about giant corporations stop making terrible business decisions, and then trying to force everyone to change their behaviour so that those dumb decisions make them even more money. I mean you do realise Cliffy that it's exactly this kind of attitude that's resulted the current economic crisis, big business expecting the citizenship to support them in the destruction of civil liberties and economic freedom. Seriously Cliffy, fuck you.
CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"
- Thread starter Steven Bogos
- Start date
So let me get this straight. The former head of a company that made big exclusive for Microsoft's consoles is speaking in support of Microsoft?
Colour me surprised.
He is right, though. The used games market won't be able to support the sky-high cost of AAA development.
He is wrong, however, about why that is and what should be done. The cost of AAA development is high due to poor management, shoehorning in more crap so the games have (insert Jim Sterling mockery voice) "broader appeal", and having unnecessarily famous people doing voice acting and motion capture.
The answer is not to get rid of a market that hugely benefits the consumer, it is to cut the cost of AAA development by refining the focus of the games, not shoehorning crap in, better project management, and not having famous people play parts in games. I'm sure there are more.
The fault is not on our end, Cliffy, it's on yours. Get your act together.
Colour me surprised.
He is right, though. The used games market won't be able to support the sky-high cost of AAA development.
He is wrong, however, about why that is and what should be done. The cost of AAA development is high due to poor management, shoehorning in more crap so the games have (insert Jim Sterling mockery voice) "broader appeal", and having unnecessarily famous people doing voice acting and motion capture.
The answer is not to get rid of a market that hugely benefits the consumer, it is to cut the cost of AAA development by refining the focus of the games, not shoehorning crap in, better project management, and not having famous people play parts in games. I'm sure there are more.
The fault is not on our end, Cliffy, it's on yours. Get your act together.
Sounds like a former head of Epic Games that I once read, speaking on how cartoony games don't work and that only "realism" matters, back in 2010.
This despite the fact that at that time? The absolutely undisputed leader of the consoler market... was the Nintendo DS.
Wait, was it... Ah, no, it was Mike Capps. Sorry, had to check. The guys at Epic have been playing the broken record for so long they all sound the same now.
Captcha: Only way to be sure.
I know right?
This despite the fact that at that time? The absolutely undisputed leader of the consoler market... was the Nintendo DS.
Wait, was it... Ah, no, it was Mike Capps. Sorry, had to check. The guys at Epic have been playing the broken record for so long they all sound the same now.
Captcha: Only way to be sure.
I know right?
It's worth noting that both Cliff and Rob have been involved in their fair share of fails.Mr. Q said:
Arguing someone's success is valid when they cannot extend themselves, and that's irrespective of whether they're actual artists (which Liefeld is in only the same sense as your average kindergartener).
Okay then CB, if Used games are such a problem and gaming companies just HAVE to have the production budget of a movie why don't we just emulate Hollywood even more and open up more social gaming clubs for the peons to gather and call them gaming theaters? Oh wait, that only really works with OFFLINE multiplayer games. If anything developers and publishers could stop trying to be Virtual Hollywood and make games that people would actually want to buy. And consumers, stop being entitled little pricks about everything when it comes to games. If anything, the corporate side and the consumer side of this industry needs to have a sit down to discuss the best course of action for this industry because it's very blatantly obvious that what we have going on does not fricken work!
Okay, so he says "Budgets are too high for Used games to exist!" ... Why not lower your budgets? Why do you have to screw over people who want to buy used games in order for you to basically bankrupt yourself?! What is wrong with game developers today? No one stops and thinks "Hmmm, you know what? This costs us way too much money and will probably not sell as many copies as we think it needs to... Maybe we could cut the fat off our game?" But why is that? Even movie makers cancel projects that go way past their budget!
It's rather obvious Cliffy B took computer classes in college and skipped any and all business classes. If he hadn't someone might have explained to him this thing called market forces. And that consumers will place money where they perceive value for the price. Used game sales, rentals and piracy all exist because the routine pricing for AAA games is quite frankly too high. That's it. That's the entirety of it. The root pricing model has crossed the threshold were a substantial portion of the consumer does not perceive a value for the product at the price being offered. The customer currently takes steps to alleviate this somewhat themselves via trade ins or rentals. Both being mechanisms whereby the customer can effect the relative price of a new game and bring it down to their value threshold. Cutting out those buffers will not put more profit in the hands of developers. It will put more games above the value threshold for which customers are willing to pay. In short it will decrease sales. This is especially true for fun but short or low life expectancy games like Cliffy B tends to make. (Short intense single player campaign, a few weeks. Of multiplayer with friends then on the heap it goes like a rotting fruit.)
The solution is not to eliminate used game sales, rentals, trade ins etc. these are tools that the customer uses to bring the cost of ownership of the product down below their perceived value threshold. The solution is to actually price that new product below that threshold to begin with. $19 - $29 and the issue of used sales or rentals will disappear. As will most piracy (save that done for geographic reasons). Don't believe me? Go ask Apple. Or Steam. They work not because of there DRM digital delivery. They work because it is easier and cheaper to buy new than it is to use other methods. He costs equal the perceived values.
But instead of seeking to fix the actual problem, Cliffy chooses to go full on Don Quixote and charge the customers. Attacking the things that they need to do in order to attempt to feebly bring value to his product. Well done man.
The solution is not to eliminate used game sales, rentals, trade ins etc. these are tools that the customer uses to bring the cost of ownership of the product down below their perceived value threshold. The solution is to actually price that new product below that threshold to begin with. $19 - $29 and the issue of used sales or rentals will disappear. As will most piracy (save that done for geographic reasons). Don't believe me? Go ask Apple. Or Steam. They work not because of there DRM digital delivery. They work because it is easier and cheaper to buy new than it is to use other methods. He costs equal the perceived values.
But instead of seeking to fix the actual problem, Cliffy chooses to go full on Don Quixote and charge the customers. Attacking the things that they need to do in order to attempt to feebly bring value to his product. Well done man.
Lets not compare Liefeld with kindergarteners. At least kindergarteners tend to improve in their artwork as oppose to Rob Liefeld, whose creations seem to suffer from massive deformities (I.E. oversized thighs, number of teeth that outnumber the attendance record for a Justin Bieber concert, tiny feet, etc.).Zachary Amaranth said:
I'm beginning to wonder if Microsoft is pulling on any developer/publisher that they have any pull on to get them to start speaking out for them.
I do find it remarkable that EA hasn't spoken out by saying that we should all be in love with these changes. But I also think EA has come to the realization that they need better PR. We may actually see a better EA in a few years and if this really slams Microsoft then we could see a better overall market that knows that the customer base is able to get information readily enough to punish negative decisions.
The preorder market has side stepped this in a lot of ways. But maybe things as pricey as consoles can't get around it since we have to know what we're buying before we buy it.
I do find it remarkable that EA hasn't spoken out by saying that we should all be in love with these changes. But I also think EA has come to the realization that they need better PR. We may actually see a better EA in a few years and if this really slams Microsoft then we could see a better overall market that knows that the customer base is able to get information readily enough to punish negative decisions.
The preorder market has side stepped this in a lot of ways. But maybe things as pricey as consoles can't get around it since we have to know what we're buying before we buy it.
EXACTLY!Wyvern65 said:
A second-hand market is an inevitable part of a capitalist system UNLESS you crack down on consumer rights and freedoms; and even that won't stop it, it will just suppress it and drive it underground.
So... IF CliffyB is right (notice he cites no evidence or numbers for his claims), then either the industry will adapt itself to the existence of a second-hand market (just like movies, books, etc), or the industry will have to crack down on consumer rights and freedoms which are the absolute greatest and most essential parts of living in a thriving capitalist system.
Alternatively, the industry can crash and publishers can learn the hard way.
If you honestly believe that suppressing consumer rights and freedoms in a capitalist system is a good thing CliffyB, then I have nothing else to say to you.
The solution is control your bloated budgets. Celebrity cameos and spending millions on superbowl ads don't sell games, quality and value do.
I rent a game to try it out before I buy it because I've been burned too many times on marketing that makes a game look amazing, but the actual game is a waste of my time and money.
I rent a game to try it out before I buy it because I've been burned too many times on marketing that makes a game look amazing, but the actual game is a waste of my time and money.
While Cliffy B may very well be correct about Sony "playing us" (and he might, hell Sony already did say that there might be a framework for 3rd Party Devs to implement anti-used game policies) but overall Nintendo has the best thing to say about this matter...
When I LOVE a game I keep it... like... for good, but what happens in several years when you can't acquire a cult classic game anymore because no new copies exist... I have the feeling that this is going to create an INSANE collectors market at some point as only new copies are viable and when you want one of those games a few years down the line... watch out...
Edit:
Hell if you don't believe me go and look up New/Sealed games for the PS1 and PS2... anything that was popular and not produced in insane numbers is usually upwards of $100.
When I LOVE a game I keep it... like... for good, but what happens in several years when you can't acquire a cult classic game anymore because no new copies exist... I have the feeling that this is going to create an INSANE collectors market at some point as only new copies are viable and when you want one of those games a few years down the line... watch out...
Edit:
Hell if you don't believe me go and look up New/Sealed games for the PS1 and PS2... anything that was popular and not produced in insane numbers is usually upwards of $100.
The issue is, and always has been, piracy. A recent social experiment[footnote]http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013...lator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/[/footnote] indicates that it's not a bad estimate to say 90% of people of play an indie game pirated it. I'm sure this figure is less for triple-A games (or I would hope), but still, they're losing money off those pirates. A lot of money.
A compelling argument, to be sure, but that's regrettably not how the industry works. If one developer started producing lower-budget games, they would in all likelihood be crushed by their competitors. It's a brutal kind of escalation - every big publisher wants to be bigger and better than every other - and stakes only go up, never down.Wyvern65 said:
"We don't know how to keep making games with a sustainable system, therefore we're shoving our production costs and issues on you. Deal with it, because it's not our fault we can't run a business."
This is getting a bit into entitled territory, but game publishers are always telling us used games are evil, but they aren't giving people any reason to buy NEW instead of used.
This is getting a bit into entitled territory, but game publishers are always telling us used games are evil, but they aren't giving people any reason to buy NEW instead of used.
