CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

OtherSideofSky

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Fuck that. Used sales and rentals haven't killed movies. Besides, I can't say that all this 'graphical fidelity' has done much to improve my experience when the people who can afford it never manage to couple it with some decent art direction. If the market can't support your bloated budgets without restrictive, consumer-unfriendly policies to prop them up, then you need to start budgeting your games more reasonably. Maybe sacrifice a few polygons and put more effort into gameplay that's actually engaging.
 

Jamous

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Jesse Billingsley said:
Jamous said:
Except that simply isn't the case. You -can- make games that'll profit without 5 million fucking sales, you just -aren't-.

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

There are two solutions here. One is yours, the other is better.
Can we go back to the days when people made games to make fucking games???? When did this suddenly turn into an economic war?
I have no idea. It's fucking ridiculous, and seems to be the root of most issues people have with the industry at the moment. Bluh. At least it seems we'll be getting some more interesting titles again with the next gen. More than have been around in the console market recently at least.
 

ZephrC

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"Oh no guys! We have to re-write the entire concept of ownership because realistic budgets are hard!"

-CliffyB
 

Promariner

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I think .Clibby B is being paid on the side by Microsoft to make statements such as these and because the Gears of War Franchise is hoping to reap huge benefits on the concept of NO used game sales because their GoW games do not offer much in the way of replay value
 

Tono Makt

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Microsoft's decision to Twitter [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7444-Xbox-One-and-the-Death-of-Ownership]. "The numbers do NOT work people." [/B]
So pretty simple solution - cut back on the marketing, cut back on the cinematic cut scenes (we're playing video games here, not watching an interactive 20+ hour movie) either in total length or in detail (ie: a little less detail in the backgrounds, focus on smaller segments like the faces and upper bodies of the characters, not on sweeping shots of the landscape, or whatever is the most difficult, time consuming or expensive part of the cut scenes) and cut back on the marketing. And I think it needs to be said, they should cut back on the marketing.

Also? Refine the business model to something actually sane. If you need to sell 5 Million+ copies of a game to beak even, then you're doing something wrong. Maybe cut back on the marketing?
 

Therumancer

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Well, as I've said before, there is no excuse for the size and pay scale of some of these development teams, the entire thing seems bloated beyond belief. What's more it seems to size of these teams ironically increase with technology coming out that should by definition be making things easier. Not to mention that from the way things seem at E3 they are basically hyping the ability to pay people to model convincing arm hair.....

At the end of the day if Cliffy B's predictions come true, it's pretty much going to kill gaming, or seriously hurt it. Games are very expensive, no matter how much you argue about the "value for the dollar" (which everyone producing a product says). Raise the price, and it will just become a pastime for the rich, and you'll see less sales overall. Right now it's difficult to continue gaming seriously as it is, and the economy hardly seems to be improving by leaps and bounds. The microtransaction systems and such also seem to largely be fueled by greed more than anything, with people fueling them because right now it's a choice of tolerate them or go without gaming... but as things progress I think more and more people are going to choose to go without the games. To be blunt I liked the "Dead Space" series, but when "Dead Space 3" included a microtransaction system I chose not to buy it and haven't looked back.

I think Cliffy is mostly speaking from the perspective of what the industry wants, and is going to try and force. On some levels I suppose looking at the trends he might be right, as gamers have generally caved to every greedy scheme the industry has shoveled on them. We're ultimately responsible for tolerating the Day #1 DLC, on disc DLC, DRM schemes, and these ridiculous, bloated design teams and their costs. We keep buying the products, and giving our money, so of course the industry pushes harder and harder.

Also, when I talk about ridiculous, bloated design teams, understand that I'm not just talking about my usual rants here. Consider that with games like say "The Old Republic Online" on which an astronomical amount of money was spent, the guys doing the modeling couldn't even solve the problem of character models clipping all over the place. You wear a cape or a cloak, which tons of outfits involve, and you can literally see it clip through vehicles you sit on like a semi-intangible dishrag. My smuggler wearing a suit of armor with a duster/long coat over it (visually) has her gun clip through the coat on the gun belt. To go one further, I don't think I've seen one MMO in recent memory that hasn't had these problems, heck in Neverwinter they will let you play a Halfling "Great Weapon Fighter" and your sword will literally clip into the ground half the time as you run because nobody could be bothered to hang the swords a little different for the small models. Don't even get me started on collar and long hair combinations, or whatever else. At the end of the day you have all these hundreds or thousands of people being hired to do art assets and models (which is where that money is going) and spending millions upon millions of dollars, and then producing what amounts to visual garbage with the current technology... and demanding to be paid top dollar for it. This kind of thing is a typical problem with things that become too big and bloated, you've probably got ten times as many people as you need working on a project, so nobody feels motivated to do anything to check anything, they sit around sucking up money, rush the product out at the last minute, with a bloated budget and a crappy result. While I mostly talk about MMOs here it also applies to single player games. A lot of it also probably comes from say hiring one team to do hairstyles and another team to do costume options, and then never having them talk to each other to compare their work...

My basic point here is that Cliffy seems to be trying to make a pseudo-common sense argument about design teams to justify the worst financial excesses of the industry and their plans for the future, while not considering that for the most part these guys don't even seem to get the job done as it is. The industry needs more efficiency, not stuffing more clowns into the car, and needs to do more with less, not engage in Caligula-like excess on hiring resources and then pass the cost on to the consumer.

At any rate, I really "look forward to" this upcoming generation where they will doubtlessly be hiring expert armhair modelers, tacking them onto every design team, and then we can see the fine hairs on peoples arms clip through their clothing, by way of showing off awesome next generation graphics technology.
 

Username Redacted

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Here's a hint to developers: if your game isn't Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Diablo or something Mario or Zelda related your sales projections probably have as much to do with reality as the fevered crack dreams of the hobo at Metro Center. Adjust to reality. Do not expect reality to conform to your hopes and dreams. #dealwithit
 

floppylobster

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"games have gotten so big that there is just no way the next generation can survive if the used game and game rental markets keep taking a cut."

Unless games cut back on their ridiculously overblown budgets and just focus on good (and fun) gameplay - Which sells - and makes money - as proven by the Nintendo DS, smart phones, Wii, indie games etc... Or we can keeping paying for overpriced motion capture and big name voice actors while skimping on writers and keep games predominately as a past time for under 25s.
 

Lovely Mixture

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CaptainBill22 said:
What Microsoft is doing may not be popular, but it's necessary.
Wow. It's.....NECESSARY?

"Games aren't making enough profit, time to remove consumer rights. It's the only way! Ends justify the means!"
 

deadish

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The market is self-adjusting. People will perform activities that have the best profit (revenue - cost). If your cost are too high, you either increase revenue or cut cost. If you are unable to do either as well as your competitors, I suggest you find another job.

I don't like the concept of used games either. But MS's 1984 type solution is horrible. DRM with all sorts of rules restricting their use is plain nuts. Way too complicated.

So far 2 companies have succeeded in implementing DRM. Apple and Valve. Both are companies with considerable amount of good-will to burn when they launched their DRM encumbered systems. Even then, it has cause considerable amount of frustration among it's userbase. In the case of music, DRM is all but gone.

Edit: Also when did "listening to your customers" become "trying to play them"? Sony made a choice. Give in to incredibly unpopular publisher demands or listen to the people who are actually paying for the whole industry. I think they made the right choice.
 

deadish

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Lovely Mixture said:
CaptainBill22 said:
What Microsoft is doing may not be popular, but it's necessary.
Wow. It's.....NECESSARY?

"Games aren't making enough profit, time to remove consumer rights. It's the only way! Ends justify the means!"
The game industry has survived 2 decades without insane DRM. Just saying.
 

theultimateend

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Lovely Mixture said:
CaptainBill22 said:
What Microsoft is doing may not be popular, but it's necessary.
Wow. It's.....NECESSARY?

"Games aren't making enough profit, time to remove consumer rights. It's the only way! Ends justify the means!"
To be fair he's right.

If you like paying top dollar for really pretty, shallow shit, you need to stop second hand sales.
 

CaptainBill22

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Kamille Bidan said:
CaptainBill22 said:
GSP66 said:
*Starts talking to Cliff like he is a dog

BAD CLIFFY BAD! That argument was utterly assanine. Please stop urinating on my consumer rights.

Seriously this guy needs to fuck off.
Your consumer rights? How about the rights of a business to not being ripped off? If a developer and producer can't make money you can forget about new and awesome games. You have to remember developers and producers are in business to make money. It's not evil, taboo, or a sin to want to make a profit and be successful. Especially when you want to make an amazing game and get the talent and resources to make it.

Come off your high horse, I am a consumer just like you. The difference is I seek to understand why a company does what it does. Not ***** and moan about it.
With regards to the 'sin' comment, you are aware that greed, which is basically what this whole issue boils down to, is in fact one of the seven deadly sins.

You're the one on your high horse. You're telling people they have absolutely no right to be angry when a complete idiot comes out and says that people should passively accept the gradual erosion of their basic consumer rights because the people who make the products can't sustain their business model. That makes you just as bad as Bleszinski, if not worse.








Businesses don't deserve to make money just because they put out a product. They certainly don't have the right to continually find ways to steal from their consumer base just because they're not making enough money. Second hand sales are both perfectly legal and one of your basic rights as a consumer, a right that needs defending.

First off companies don't make money if you don't give it to them. They cannot go into your bank account without your explicit permission and take your money. Therefore they cannot steal your money jack-ass. They have every right to find new products and services to sell, again they cannot take your money unless you give it to them willingly. Yes with the Xbox One you can buy or sell a used disk, you'll just need to pay a fee to use it.

Yes greed is a sin especially when you are greedy for no reason. A game company has a reason for wanting to make as much as they can off a game. Think of all the overhead that goes into making a game. Then think about what it takes for a developer to stay in business when every game they launch is a virtual gamble and if they lose they can find themselves in the red really quick. Therefore the more they make off a game the better. It means if a project goes south they can cope with it. If they're well into the black they can start a new franchise which means new games for consumers.

Consumers have a right to get what they pay for. We don't have a right to complain when businesses need to change they way they do business. For crying out loud America is a Capitalist country not some back-water socialist one.
 

theultimateend

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CaptainBill22 said:
For crying out loud America is a Capitalist country not some back-water socialist one.
Suddenly it all makes sense.

Modern Capitalism >is< backwater. It's about as lowbrow as you can get.

Defending it is strange since it is literally killing you. Your air is dirtier because of it, your water is dirtier, seafood is less safe, millions of people suffer inhumane working conditions because of it.

Money is fine and wanting your business to succeed is fine.

But this idea of doing >anythingeverything< for profits is moronic and no more rational and modern than beating an animal to death with a club and dragging it into a cave.

You are correct that >ifneed< to do what CliffyB is saying. The thing you seem to be overlooking is that what they are doing is unnecessarily expensive and these extreme measures should be a realization that they've created something they cannot sustain.

The gaming industry has crashed before and these large companies will crash again. Hopefully after enough industries crash (GG banking, housing, stock market) people, like yourself, will realize this bubble model of business is not immortal nor is it rational.
 

suntt123

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CaptainBill22 said:
Yes greed is a sin especially when you are greedy for no reason. A game company has a reason for wanting to make as much as they can off a game. Think of all the overhead that goes into making a game. Then think about what it takes for a developer to stay in business when every game they launch is a virtual gamble and if they lose they can find themselves in the red really quick. Therefore the more they make off a game the better. It means if a project goes south they can cope with it. If they're well into the black they can start a new franchise which means new games for consumers.
Well, then they'd better stop SPENDING so much, huh? And it's not like we expect graphics to blow our socks off EVERY TIME someone releases a new game. THEY DO NOT NEED TO SPEND AS MUCH AS THEY DO, THEY'RE JUST BEING RECKLESS WITH THEIR SPENDING. THAT IS THEIR STUPID FAULT, THEY SHOULD PAY FOR IT. The best selling games this generation are CoD and Mario and the first uses the pretty much the exact same engine and art assets practically every time, and the other only RECENTLY came into HD.

What does it take for a developer to stay in business? How about business skills and basic logic? MANAGE THE DAMN BUDGET. IF YOU NEED TO MATCH THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS TO MAKE YOUR MONEY BACK WITH ONE GAME YOU'RE SPENDING TOO DAMN MUCH. And, no you can't just EXPECT to make ludicrous sales targets because you think your game is, like, really, really good. EVER.

Again, the Tomb Raider example. They spent so much money on such superfluous GARBAGE that the only way to make it back was if it became the next CoD or Mario!!! Who thought this would work??? WAS THERE SOMEONE WHO HONESTLY THOUGHT THIS WAS A SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS VENTURE???? A stupid decision deserves whatever it gets.

The problem isn't that producing a good game REQUIRES an enormous budget. It's that NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ON A SENSIBLE BUDGET BECAUSE IT'S HARD. Well, boo-hoo for you. Funny thing is, CoD and Mario ARE making those numbers but they probably don't even NEED it all to break even.

Consumers have a right to get what they pay for. We don't have a right to complain when businesses need to change they way they do business. For crying out loud America is a Capitalist country not some back-water socialist one.
Yes, and consumers also have a right to criticize that which they perceive is a rip off as well crude business practices. Just because America is a capitalist doesn't excuse a company biting off more than it can chew and expect the customers to be willing to just roll with it when you try to nickel and dime your way out of the grave YOU YOURSELF DUG. Just because this is a capitalist country, doesn't excuse stupidity or anti-consumer practices. Your company went down because you couldn't match the production costs despite selling (say it with me now) MILLIONS OF COPIES? Sucks to be you. Hopefully your IP ends up with someone who can DISPLAY SOME RESTRAINT AND COMPETENCE.
 

katsabas

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A man hired by MS to make games exclusively for the 360 for the past 5+ years is not gonna have an unbiased opinion. It's just what comes to play when you realize you are standing on thin ice. I went through the comments a bit and saw quite a bit of information. It seems that used games push new games to be bought. Besides, after watching some Jim, I gathered that each new console title makes a retailer a whopping 2 dollars. Yeah, compared to the 60 dollar price tag, that's incredibly little. You think retailers are gonna sit on their hands ?

I think that Blezinski is pretty misled. He actually thinks that high cost is something we expect a game to be. Shows what he knows about the industry. I wish someone would take a list with normal budget games and flash it to him cause I think there are quite a lot of them. I am not gonna listen to a man that supports the 'sharing games with your friends is bad' model. It's stupid, evil and unfair after deciding to buy a game at full price.
 

Asuka Soryu

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I love how it's everyone but the game developers fault for why they can't sell as many copies of their game.
 

svenjl

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GodzillaGuy92 said:
Did anyone else picture Cliffy typing those tweets by repeatedly slamming his face against his keyboard? Because there's no other way I'm able to reconcile the blind stupidity of the comments with the fact that they were expressed by a living, thinking person.
Comedy gold!