Funny this statement comes from the guy who sells SUPER POPULAR GAME ENGINE that is branded TOTALLY AFFORDABLE, Even Indi-dev could come up with games that looked AAA (seen it happened BTW; I think this game engine is BEAST except net code). If ANYTHING... Cliffy should be on SONY's side and take stand on Xbone's bad Buz model.. treating consumers like their bitches... but then again... the game that was pumped out using the same THREE(trilogy) exact engine, having NOT added much new content (I meant properties; rebuilds).. that was sold to X360 as exclusive... (saved TONS of money on production) still sold like maad compared to Bulletstorm... Cliffy should REALLY not complain that much... look at GoW series, port, use fancier graphic renderor, add physics, few new monster, mod this, mod that... same game, different look.. Manatee for FMV sequences... game done... what 1000 people cost? maybe Ubi who didn't have UE2.5/3/3.5 to upgrade and port their games to recycle to looked not aging? yeah, Gears one is TOTALLY UE2.5,... don't lie... we already know...
CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"
- Thread starter Steven Bogos
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I, for one, agree completely. We should get rid of these bloated budgets that force people to release Aliens: Colonial Marines or take even bigger losses.
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing,"
This has probably been said a million times already, but just cut the costs of marketing and production, then? Used games are used products that have been sold already, as in THEY DO NOT BELONG TO THE CREATORS ANYMORE. Why should they be so entitled as to get paid for the same product TWICE? Used games and rentals are not going away. It's the industry's job to adapt, not the consumer's.
This has probably been said a million times already, but just cut the costs of marketing and production, then? Used games are used products that have been sold already, as in THEY DO NOT BELONG TO THE CREATORS ANYMORE. Why should they be so entitled as to get paid for the same product TWICE? Used games and rentals are not going away. It's the industry's job to adapt, not the consumer's.
Who cares about his opinion...he's the creator of Gears of War....that automatically makes any of his opinions white noise.
I read some of the tweets either side of that one and his dogged defence of Microsoft is nothing short of embarrassing. The guy needs to get some self respect instead of sucking up to EA and MS on a daily basis.
I'll say what everyone else has been saying: the huge dev and marketing costs are YOUR fault. Not ours. Was the launching of a copy of ME 3 into space really necessary? Good games sell themselves - who has ever seen a billboard, tv ad or any kind of advertising space for minecraft? anyone? Yet somehow it managed 10,000,000 sales. Good games sell themselves.
I'll say what everyone else has been saying: the huge dev and marketing costs are YOUR fault. Not ours. Was the launching of a copy of ME 3 into space really necessary? Good games sell themselves - who has ever seen a billboard, tv ad or any kind of advertising space for minecraft? anyone? Yet somehow it managed 10,000,000 sales. Good games sell themselves.
I agree with you so hard that I had to quote your post just to let you know that.Kushan101 said:
Seriously, it's really frustrating that several things in the industry are being blamed on the consumers. It's also frustrating because, as Kushan said, Cliffy B will defend those practices (and MS and EA) to no end. Christ. Can't even put my frustration into words.
Amen to that. I'm already saving up for another 360, for when mine invariably kacks out. I've got an absolute arseload of 360 games, and I'm going to keep playing my 360 as long as is conceivably possible.Altorin said:my stance is, if a game can't be purchased used on the consoles, I'm not going to buy it.
I buy new games when something comes out that I know I'll love and I either don't want to wait for the prices to drop to the bottom (5 dollars is not enough incentive for me to buy used, when I buy used they're typically 20 dollar 5 year old games).
If a console game is going to lock itself to my console then I don't want it, new, or used. I'll just buy something else. Or nothing. I'm not such a wanker that I NEED MY VIDYA GAMES WAHUUUUUU.
No. If a publisher chooses to shut out the used market for their title on PS4, then I just won't buy that game. If it turns out he's right and Sony's "playing us" and straight lying, then I won't be buying a PS4. I'm freaking 28 years old, you can't just pull this shit anymore.
Nintendo seems to get it, and even if I just get a WiiU, and somehow between Microsoft and Sony they absolutely destroy the used game market, I'll go back to nintendo as my primary system, even if I do have to buy everything new. I'm not buying new from Microsoft or Sony just because of their bullshit marketting tactics. I'll buy new from Nintendo if I must buy new. Or I just won't.
I'll collect 360 games until I have every 360 game I could concievably want to play, and then I'll just call that a fucking day. I'm sick of this garbage.
oh, and cliffy.. bought all 3 gears new. jussayn. gears 3 was an impulse purchase at best buy when I was buying my laptop, and I liked it so much I bought the other 2. Not buying Judgement though. Maybe when its 20 dollars used
In an Xbone discussion the other night with some friends, I did a little bit of math. I counted up my 360 library, then I multiplied it by 59.99 (plus tax). 92 games at a $70 price point?
$6,439.08.
If I were to try to recreate my 360 library on the non-BC xbone (Which I'm 99% positive Microsoft will try to make me do), without the used game market Mr. "Waah! I can't afford a third solid gold swimming pool because you bought a game used!" is decrying, that's how much it would cost me.
So yeah.
Fuck that guy.
La Barata said:Amen to that. If I buy something, it's MINE. I'm already saving up for another 360, for when mine invariably kacks out. I've got an absolute arseload of 360 games, and I'm going to keep playing my 360 as long as is conceivably possible.Altorin said:my stance is, if a game can't be purchased used on the consoles, I'm not going to buy it.
I buy new games when something comes out that I know I'll love and I either don't want to wait for the prices to drop to the bottom (5 dollars is not enough incentive for me to buy used, when I buy used they're typically 20 dollar 5 year old games).
If a console game is going to lock itself to my console then I don't want it, new, or used. I'll just buy something else. Or nothing. I'm not such a wanker that I NEED MY VIDYA GAMES WAHUUUUUU.
No. If a publisher chooses to shut out the used market for their title on PS4, then I just won't buy that game. If it turns out he's right and Sony's "playing us" and straight lying, then I won't be buying a PS4. I'm freaking 28 years old, you can't just pull this shit anymore.
Nintendo seems to get it, and even if I just get a WiiU, and somehow between Microsoft and Sony they absolutely destroy the used game market, I'll go back to nintendo as my primary system, even if I do have to buy everything new. I'm not buying new from Microsoft or Sony just because of their bullshit marketting tactics. I'll buy new from Nintendo if I must buy new. Or I just won't.
I'll collect 360 games until I have every 360 game I could concievably want to play, and then I'll just call that a fucking day. I'm sick of this garbage.
oh, and cliffy.. bought all 3 gears new. jussayn. gears 3 was an impulse purchase at best buy when I was buying my laptop, and I liked it so much I bought the other 2. Not buying Judgement though. Maybe when its 20 dollars used
In an Xbone discussion the other night with some friends, I did a little bit of math. I counted up my 360 library, then I multiplied it by 59.99 (plus tax). 92 games at a $70 price point?
$6,439.08.
If I were to try to recreate my 360 library on the non-BC xbone (Which I'm 99% positive Microsoft will try to make me do), without the used game market Mr. "Waah! I can't afford a third solid gold swimming pool because you bought a game used!" is decrying, that's how much it would cost me.
So yeah.
Fuck that guy.
Metacritic isn't as relevant as people seem to think when it comes to sales. Resident evil 6 only got a 68 and sold about 4.9 million. 4.9 people bought Resident Evil 6 and it was STILL considered a flop because it needed 5 million to break even. That is ridiculous. 4.9 million is A LOT and it's not breaking even? And even if they did meet their goal of 5 million, that is A LOT to be aiming for. If they needed that much then they spent WAAY too much on the game.LuisGuimaraes said:
In what other industry can you make something that is almost universally reviled, sell 4.9 million of the thing, and STILL not make your sales target???
And anyways, are you suggesting gamers won't buy games used is if it's metacritic score is 9 or higher?
that's the same for a 2nd hand car or movie or whatever product.Baldr said:
It really is not that different, they charge for an online fee anyway, hardly anyone complains about that. Isnt it obvious observing all the free to play games out there? You want to LOWER the entry barriers to your product... not HEIGHTEN them... sigh
Cliffy B just hasn't been in the spotlight for too long so he has to say something stupid for people to know he's still an influential industry personality.
And you know what the issue is for me more than anything? I'm rarely offline and only bought a used game ONCE in my life since I couldn't find it anywhere... So why the fuzz? I can't accept the lack of respect, the patronizing arrogance, and the spectacular tone-deafness Microsoft ( and Cliffy B in this particular topic ) are displaying, I am an indie developer and a pretty serious gamer, so I feel this "deal with it" attitude of them "bringing us the future to us mere mortals" is just disgusting. No, we are not stupid, wondering if the Xbone will actually work outside the US is not a dumb question, wanting to travel with games is not an unreasonable requirement, sharing games CAN'T be such a tremendous problem. When your solution is actually complicating the problem further, it is not a solution, it's that simple.
I personally can't care less about the bloated dumbed down games MUST GET 5MILL sales to break even. If they invested in the actual quality of the game more than in marketing and god knows what (How can games like The Last of Us make a profit when they are some of the most realized, most meticulously polished products in the world? By their logic, this would be impossible). Maybe they wouldn't have these issues if they stopped treating their buyers habits as the problem ( really? think about that phenomenon, how can it be possible that they are even considering this? ), maybe if they respected consumers, players would show them some respect as well. I know I preorder games by my favorite developers, and I can hardly resist purchasing a game with the slightest bit of originality the moment I see it.
Through my dealings with Sony, they seem like a global, open, listening company, probably out of the bigger companies, the most approachable out of all of them.
SO, yeah, they want their system to be sustainable? stop making crap-ware. As it is .. I SURE hope it is NOT sustainable, when you actively water down franchises to make them fit the status-quo.
Scale down the bloody bloated budgets of the games you are making, Cliffy. Assassin's Creed is made by thousands? I would argue that the same game could be made by hundreds with the same outcome.
Budget your projects properly and realistically, Cliffy. Tighten that belt a bit - if that's too much, I'm sure there are others that would happily take your place in the market.
It is not our responsibility to support the overindulgence of the devs, what if your games grow to cost 120$? 300$? Should we continue to go along? For whose sake? Yours or ours?
Budget your projects properly and realistically, Cliffy. Tighten that belt a bit - if that's too much, I'm sure there are others that would happily take your place in the market.
It is not our responsibility to support the overindulgence of the devs, what if your games grow to cost 120$? 300$? Should we continue to go along? For whose sake? Yours or ours?
People aren't exactly demanding for that, devs make them so people buy them. Besides, making a good looking game doesn't automatically mean that you need to be able to fund a small country with your spending. Dark Souls looks gorgeous and that didn't need to sell 6 million copies to break even. In fact it only sold about 2 million and the devs consider it a success and are happy with it. You don't need to empty your entire bank account every time you make a game and even if you do, doesn't guarantee you'll make it all back.Coruptin said:
What devs don't seem to comprehend is that there's a difference between hitting a high sales target and making a profit. If Dark Souls sold anywhere NEAR as much as Tomb Raider or Resident Evil did, the devs would piss themselves with excitement. Meanwhile Tomb Raider and Resident Evil are selling OVER 4 MILLION and are not making a penny. All three of these games looked GORGEOUS, only ONE of them made a profit.
The audience at large may want flashy games, that doesn't mean devs have to spend so much on it, nor does it make it our responsibility if they can't figure out how to spend their funds with some restraint. Hell, Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate is considered a "smash hit" and it's not even really HD, just upscaled from the 3DS version (and noticeably so).
What they SHOULD be doing is trying to make less go farther.
No surprise that a guy who has made lots of Microsoft games would lash out at Sony. Or make an unsubstantiated claim. I'm certain he knows a ton of information about the PS4. Y'know with all those games he'll be making for it.
Okay, so the evil vile thing ruining the gaming industry today is used games. Something that has been going on for... A long time. Guess that mean piracy, the last great evil, wasn't the problem. Tomorrow, after Microsoft fixes this problem, I'm sure that the new problem will be renting games. Then, sharing games. And soon, it'll be that nongamers aren't buying enough games. The selfish bastards that they are.
In related news, I am really hoping Jim makes a video on E3 and recent events, soon.
Okay, so the evil vile thing ruining the gaming industry today is used games. Something that has been going on for... A long time. Guess that mean piracy, the last great evil, wasn't the problem. Tomorrow, after Microsoft fixes this problem, I'm sure that the new problem will be renting games. Then, sharing games. And soon, it'll be that nongamers aren't buying enough games. The selfish bastards that they are.
In related news, I am really hoping Jim makes a video on E3 and recent events, soon.
If CliffyB was right then my answer is that we need to stop making big budget games, because I'm not terribly interested in gaming where I can't get games cheaper (pre-order) or by rental.
So.... stop having stupid budgets... Just because you make a game like WoW does not mean its going to sell and have subs like WoW. And just because you make a FPS where you shoot Russians/terrorists/Nazis/zombies/(insert random bad guy here) means your gonna hit COD numbers.
You make a good game people want you reap the benefits. Skyrim, COD, Battlefield 4, WoW, God of War, Halo successful games that sell millions of units. Did they cost a lot? Of course they did! Did some of them have massive marketing campaigns? Some did some did not. You have to use your development money correctly and have well made games and effective marketing in the right place and the game has to be have something to be different than its competition. Skyrim did not have multiplayer and still succeeded. Halo had fun combat and engaging story and fun multiplayer and kicked off a great franchise. Look at movies for instance. If you make a great movie people go and see it and you make money. If the movie sucks people don't see it and you have to look at why.
The bottom line is people will always pay for what they want and if a company does not provide it than they need to learn from that. Just because you make a game does not mean people are going to buy it. Demon Souls knew it was a niche game and budgeted accordingly and made money from it.
You make a good game people want you reap the benefits. Skyrim, COD, Battlefield 4, WoW, God of War, Halo successful games that sell millions of units. Did they cost a lot? Of course they did! Did some of them have massive marketing campaigns? Some did some did not. You have to use your development money correctly and have well made games and effective marketing in the right place and the game has to be have something to be different than its competition. Skyrim did not have multiplayer and still succeeded. Halo had fun combat and engaging story and fun multiplayer and kicked off a great franchise. Look at movies for instance. If you make a great movie people go and see it and you make money. If the movie sucks people don't see it and you have to look at why.
The bottom line is people will always pay for what they want and if a company does not provide it than they need to learn from that. Just because you make a game does not mean people are going to buy it. Demon Souls knew it was a niche game and budgeted accordingly and made money from it.