CNN RapeLay Controversy Sparks Angry Response

[dochmbi]

Fantasizing and roleplaying is one thing because fantasies are with only yourself and your mind and roleplaying is actually consensual anyways.
The problem with making games like RapeLay is that it encourages, condones, and/or justifies rape too much. I feel that sensible people SHOULD be offended by this; it shows that we still look down upon rape. If we become numb to it because of repeated appearances in video games and such, then we'll care less about the incident.

What you say about seperating fantasies from ethical thinking does make sense. However, one must consider the implications of it. What if someone decides to take advantage of that fantasy and make it real? That's where the fear lies.

Have I become numb to murder because I have killed thousands upon thousands of people in video games? No. And how come mass murder in games is ok but rape is not? How exactly is rape any more evil?
As a liberalist I have to come out and defend free speech, even if it's something I dislike very much, whether it be the ravings of a fundamentalist or a controversial videogame. We can't have a double standard of free speech, where only some things are allowed and others aren't, cause then who gets to decide what's acceptable and what isn't. The only thing that must not permitted is hate speech, because that has too much potential to cause harm. A hardcore libertarian might argue that even hatespeech should be permitted, but I would not go that far, I follow classical liberalism in my thinking.

*post edited slightly

 

[GloatingSwine]

Fantasizing and roleplaying is one thing because fantasies are with only yourself and your mind and roleplaying is actually consensual anyways.
The problem with making games like RapeLay is that it encourages, condones, and/or justifies rape too much. I feel that sensible people SHOULD be offended by this; it shows that we still look down upon rape. If we become numb to it because of repeated appearances in video games and such, then we'll care less about the incident.

Biggest selling entertainment product ever.

You were saying?

 

[Desworks]

"Naturally, that is not to say that our society is without problems, but to be honest, I frankly do not think that you are the ones to tell us"

Yep, that about sums up everything right there. Maybe when your own country is a Eden you can start talking about others, but before then it's just rude!

Ninja Edit:

I feel that sensible people SHOULD be offended by this; it shows that we still look down upon rape.

Sensible people can and will be offended by this. But that doesn't mean it should be banned. That's always been the sticking point with censorship. Just because you find it offensive doesn't mean you get to ban it for everyone else.

 

[the_bearpelt]

Raising an outrage over one particular subject, but then ignoring all the other terrible things that are shown in both movies and books and video games is holding an unfair standard up.

While that is also a good point, I must reply that I was offended by a lot of violence in video games in the first place. I never said violent video games are always a-okay with me.
And even if I did, there is something to be said that things like gun violence and rape are different types of offenses and should recieve different responses. WHile both are harmful, yes, they are harmful in different ways.

 

[dochmbi]

Japanese society is much more progressive in this issue than western society, and when I say progressive I mean more comforming to John Stuart Mills Harm Principle, which states that "over his own mind and body the individual is sovereign" and that the state should create laws only to prevent people from harming each other.

This is in my opinion the gold standard for jurisdiction in a liberal society, and should be adopted everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle

I'm curious, what do you mean in regards to rape?
I read the summary, but I'm having difficulty understand what you were trying to get at.

The way it's phrased (if I'm understanding it correctly) makes it sound all wonderful and stuff, but then it would boil down to, in court, coming up with a good argument of how you helped someone, even if you hurt them. That sounds farfetched, but have you HEARD of some of the frivolous lawsuits going around? The jurors are made up of regular citizens and, unfortunately, sometimes those people are idiots or jerks.

Rape would obviously be illegal, because you are harming someone, but rape videogames would not be, since you aren't harming anyone. It's a fundamental principle on how to create good jurisdiction in a liberal society, nothing more. The harm principle itself would not be used in court, it would only be used as a basis when creating laws.

 

[RikSharp]

The problem with making games like RapeLay is that it encourages, condones, and/or justifies rape too much.

in the same way that modern warfare encourages, condones, and/or justifies shooting people or virtua fighter encourages, condones, and/or justifies punching people in the face or GTA encourages, condones, and/or justifies mass crime sprees?

you cant have one rule for one and one rule for another, either they are all affecting us mentally and turning us all into the criminals the media says we should be or they are all just games and the targeted audience of them can separate the games from reality.

 

[Dr Happypills]

While freely admitting that CNN were idiots about this and Mr Nogami had a right to be offended... Japan is a country in which many trains have Woman Only sections on trains because of the incredibly high numbers of woman that get molested on them, and whose cultural practices actively discourage reporting things of that nature in certain circumstances. I don't care what the numbers say, I know what the culture says.

On a side note, the Japanese people as a whole are likely far more sexually repressed than the US, though it could be argued (and not unfairly) that this came about due to Western influences and at one time, Japan was much more open about sex than they are now.

 

[the_bearpelt]

Have I become numb to murder because I have killed thousands upon thousands of people in video games? No. And how come mass murder in games is ok but rape is not? How exactly is rape any more evil?
As a liberalist I have to come out and defend free speech, even if it's something I dislike very much, whether it be the ravings of a fundamentalist or a controversial videogame. The only thing that must be restricted is hate speech, so the issue here to me would be whether rapelay should be defined as hate speech or not.

Sorry, I didn't necessarily mean you in particular. I apologize if it sounded like my meant that; my bad. What I meant more was that when my dad was my age people would become extremely outraged when they heard of particularly violent crimes. Today, while we certainly don't look favorably upon them, the outrage isn't there anymore. Not to the degree it once was. We're somewhat desensitized. (At least, where I live, anyways.)

Personally, I'm a conservative, so while I disagree with you, I see where you're coming from. I disagree with your statement, though. I agree, people should be free to say what they like. However, I also say that people have every right to be offended by what others say and reply that they're wrong. (Although there is such a thing as going to far for both things.) So, personally, I actually believe hate speech should be allowed. But I also believe that people should look down upon hate speech, scandalize it, and condemn it. I feel like that's the way it should work.

 

[the_bearpelt]

Rape would obviously be illegal, because you are harming someone, but rape videogames would not be, since you aren't harming anyone.

Ah! I see. I didn't make that connection.
Now that you've explained it, it makes sense. And using it as a basis for law sits with me better than MAKING it a law. I agree with you on that point.

 

[the_bearpelt]

in the same way that modern warfare encourages, condones, and/or justifies shooting people or virtua fighter encourages, condones, and/or justifies punching people in the face or GTA encourages, condones, and/or justifies mass crime sprees?

you cant have one rule for one and one rule for another, either they are all affecting us mentally and turning us all into the criminals the media says we should be or they are all just games and the targeted audience of them can separate the games from reality.

True, true. But I'm not saying I'm happy with GTA either. In fact, I despise the game.

While making seperate rules for two crimes can be a bit of a double standard, I feel it should be said that with things that complex (due to situations and factors, etc) you can't make blanket statements/rules about them either. Each is different. So I supposed there needs to be a balance between avoiding double standards while making statements/rules that match individual crimes.

 

[cobrausn]

Whilst I find these sorts of games ver distasteful, the hysteria over it is a bit rich coming from a country like the US, where a child can blow an adults head off with a legal gun.

I can assure you that blowing people's heads off is illegal. Also, it has little to do with rape.

I think he's referring to our barbaric act of buying a pistol.

Barbarism! Modern 'enlightened' societies obviously have no need of guns.

And WHY did this shit get brought up again?

 

[dochmbi]

Of course you have a right to be offended and a right to speak your mind about what you think of the game and even say that it should be protested, but you don't have a right to criminalize it.

I find it a bit worrying when you say that you would permit hate speech, do you even know what that concept means? If it were permitted, I could publish a newspaper in which I proclaim that X ethnic minority is evil / cause of all our problems / demons and that they should be attacked / beaten / killed.

 

[UnusualStranger]

Continued reasonable discussion.

Very interesting.

In no way did I say you would approve of such things. Perhaps you are one of those who do not approve much of what people do now. Which is fine.

However, claiming that other people who like to partake in a fantasy that you find distasteful is not exactly very understanding. While there are limits to such things (as can be said of anything), I understand that just because I feel ill informed people should not be allowed to speak unless they can prove otherwise, it should not be done, because it does not look at the issue, it simply treats a symptom.

What I am trying to get at is simple. People find the game despicable, and want it destroyed, or consider its creator disturbing for doing such a thing. However, they are just looking at a symptom. Perhaps instead of just looking at the game and assuming it is going to train another group of rapist, instead wonder what people who play this game see in it, and try to understand what brought this to be.

 

[cobrausn]

Hell hath no fury like a pervert scorned.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/victims-are-finally-learning-to-speak-out-against-japan%e2%80%99s-outdated-rape-laws

I think Mr. Nogami needs to wake the fuck up.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

Surprisingly Japan is on of the most Sexualy repressed societies on Earth. Japan has low crime rates because the Government is always wacthing, at work places they have what is called a "smile rater". Basically when you get to work if you don't have a cheerful look on your face you get sent to human resources. The Hentia industry sells more than actual porn in Japan. People there work more than ten hours a day, hence the low crime and birth rates. While its on of the most advanced countries on the world it remains highly racist and sexist. Most people don't see the sexism in Japan because it is the norm there, while the Racism stands out. (An extreme example is the events during WW2 were the Japanese commited horid crime against the Chinese) A good modern example of Zenophobia in Japan is how all there video games servers are apart from the rest of the world, and why Japan does not allow immigration to keep there ethnicity pure. (Every country that has severs are linked together exept Japan) Why all this I can't say, but ever since WW2 there country has made very large steps forward to change, so hopefully in the not so far future we will see a more integrated Japan moving with the rest of the world. (this seems very likely, no offence to anyone who is japanese) Also here is there population pyramid:

Edit: the "smile rater" isn't being used that much yet but is becoming very popular in companies in Japan, and even in America.

 

[the_bearpelt]

Biggest selling entertainment product ever.

You were saying?

Is it just me or does everyone keep trying to reply something like, "How come you don't condemn video game violence?"
Picking up a bit of a trend here.
Not saying I like other types of violent crimes in video games either.
And just cuz something sells doesn't mean it's a good thing.

 

[the_bearpelt]

Very interesting.

In no way did I say you would approve of such things. Perhaps you are one of those who do not approve much of what people do now. Which is fine.

However, claiming that other people who like to partake in a fantasy that you find distasteful is not exactly very understanding. While there are limits to such things (as can be said of anything), I understand that just because I feel ill informed people should not be allowed to speak unless they can prove otherwise, it should not be done, because it does not look at the issue, it simply treats a symptom.

What I am trying to get at is simple. People find the game despicable, and want it destroyed, or consider its creator disturbing for doing such a thing. However, they are just looking at a symptom. Perhaps instead of just looking at the game and assuming it is going to train another group of rapist, instead wonder what people who play this game see in it, and try to understand what brought this to be.

(Cute quote, by the way; it made me laugh.)

"One of those who do not approve much of what people do now." That made me laugh because it sounds a little bit like me. Hopefully, I'm not that extreme, but I do have plenty opinions on things.

I'm not necessarily saying that the video game will train people to be rapists or criminals. (If that were true, things would've been fine and dandy before video games were invented.) What I mean is that it's not sensible to ignore something like a video game where you rape women. I feel people SHOULD respond to such things and that they SHOULD be offended because it keeps us from condoning such actions in the future.
Although I still maintain that, while you can definitly debate what sort of people PLAY the game, I feel that the creator might have a few screws loose the same way that the creator of the SAW franchise might. They aren't DEFINITLY into crimes like that; I'm just saying I feel their morals/ethics are a bit wonky.

 

[dochmbi]

the_bearpelt, I'm having a fun time discussing this issue, freedom of speech is one of my favorite things to argue about I'm going to (hopefully) enter the Helsinki university this year to study practical philosophy (ethics and politics) I don't have much theoretical knowledge yet, but it's still always fun to discuss these things and at the same time improve my arguing skills

Also, pls note my post nr. 73, which is a reply to you.

 

[the_bearpelt]

Surprisingly Japan is on of the most Sexualy repressed societies on Earth. Japan has low crime rates because the Government is always wacthing, at work places they have what is called a "smile rater". Basically when you get to work if you don't have a cheerful look on your face you get sent to human resources. The Hentia industry sells more than actual porn in Japan. People there work more than ten hours a day, hence the low crime and birth rates. While its on of the most advanced countries on the world it remains highly racist and sexist. Most people don't see the sexism in Japan because it is the norm there, while the Racism stands out. (An extreme example is the events during WW2 were the Japanese commited horid crime against the Chinese) A good modern example of Zenophobia in Japan is how all there video games servers are apart from the rest of the world, and why Japan does not allow immigration to keep there ethnicity pure. (Every country that has severs are linked together exept Japan) Why all this I can't say, but ever since WW2 there country has made very large steps forward to change, so hopefully in the not so far future we will see a more integrated Japan moving with the rest of the world.

Thanks for sharing that information, actually. I suspected some of it, knew about a couple things, but I didn't know it was quite that bad. I knew about the racism and sexism, but I didn't know about the smile rater. That explains A LOT.

 

[Aptspire]

20X more rape in the U.S. than Japan. As an outside observer (Canadian) I don't believe that the Americans can patronize the Japanese as far as rape goes :/