Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Seanchaidh]

I mean people gave shit to the British for their bombing campaigns against Nazi Germany where Civilians were caught in the crossfire. And that's with the justification that the Nazis bombed them first.

And as we all know, world war 2 ended when the Allies decided that the civilian casualties were so horrible that they would rather capitulate to Hitler than endure further stain on their souls.

Or not.

Criticisms of Allied strategic bombing take for granted that World War 2 could have been won without so much civilian death; that they had an alternative. What is the alternative for Palestine? Years ago, I remember arguing with someone who was pretty enthusiastic about the prospect of knife attacks at checkpoints... I never saw that working in the long term. I don't think it's a realistic strategy or replacement for rocket attacks, even as relatively ineffectual as the rocket attacks are compared to the military might of Israel.

 

[Buyetyen]

That Israel keeps going down the route of murdering hundreds of civilians in anger whenever Hamas is at their ineffectual rocket attacks and thus keeps proving that they really are the nasty, genocidal bully that Hamas wants to paint them as is what is really baffling here.

Less baffling when your realize that the Likud are banking on US support remaining unconditional, making them effectively untouchable. Add in the fact that Netanyahu needs to consolidate his power somehow and you get a perfect mix of corruption, ineptitude and cruelty.

 

[Dreiko]

Hamas does not have access to kind of munitions that Israel gets from the US. This really is the best they can do for retaliation.



Right, because all Muslims think the exact same things.



No we don't. Because there's also the possibility that they're being colonized by a government that has more resources at their disposal. Your understanding of geo-politics and Islam in general can charitably be described as "shallow."

No it's not, they're just giving Israel an excuse to bomb them like they always wanted to anyways. If you tell me they don't get it or that their performative "retaliation" matters more to them, well, that's what I'd call mentally handicapped.


Shooting rockets indiscriminately at the enemy population or wrapping yourself in explosives and going to an Ariana Grande concert to explode among the audience does give the same aura, yes.


They are not being colonized, there's no continuous tense. They have been conquered from back in the 60s when they lost the war, and are being sore losers instead of accepting their predicament and dealing with it like mature people.

 

[Seanchaidh]

They are not being colonized, there's no continuous tense. They have been conquered from back in the 60s when they lost the war, and are being sore losers instead of accepting their predicament and dealing with it like mature people.

No. It's an ongoing process.

 

[Dreiko]

You missed the third option: Hamas knows those rockets will do no material damage but is banking on Israel coming down on the Gaza Strip. Not only does it drive angered and disenfranchised Palestinians to Hamas when they want to take revenge or defend themselves, it also keeps the Gaza Strip and Israeli atrocities in the media spotlight which means humanitarian relief efforts and all kinds of foreign aid. Hamas has no chance of ever winning a war, irregular or otherwise, against Israel but they can keep goading Israel into employing disproportionate violence in order to make the rest of the world take Palestine's side.

That Israel keeps going down the route of murdering hundreds of civilians in anger whenever Hamas is at their ineffectual rocket attacks and thus keeps proving that they really are the nasty, genocidal bully that Hamas wants to paint them as is what is really baffling here.

I did have that option in mind but I honestly don't think they get more than they lose by having their buildings blown up left and right. After 2014 they lost electric plants and were having blackouts and whatnot, surely they wouldn't want another such event to take place. I mean, sure, more people join Hamas and they get some aid but when it's all rubble everywhere around them that won't amount to much.


And israel is like the ptsd victim where they still think they're in a gas chamber every time someone farts so they feel justified in doing anything they want because they're still fighting for their lives in their heads. It's the end of the road of victimhood glorification we see in our culture. When you have a whole country feel like they're perpetual victims then they get excused for being genocidal.

No. It's an ongoing process.

The whole thing is Israel based on the reasoning of the founding of the country, which we are functioning under. They just had trouble fully realizing that reasoning due to local resistance. You can think of it like squatters being allowed to squat cause it's easier than evicting them. Eventually they do want em gone so they can paint the walls and get new carpets in and whatnot.

 

[Seanchaidh]

The whole thing is Israel based on the reasoning of the founding of the country, which we are functioning under.

Who is "we"?

 

[Buyetyen]

No it's not, they're just giving Israel an excuse to bomb them like they always wanted to anyways. If you tell me they don't get it or that their performative "retaliation" matters more to them, well, that's what I'd call mentally handicapped.

Do you just ignore facts you don't like?

Shooting rockets indiscriminately at the enemy population or wrapping yourself in explosives and going to an Ariana Grande concert to explode among the audience does give the same aura, yes.

So you're a bigot who believes that our existences are dictated by stereotypes? Wish I could say I was surprised.

They are not being colonized, there's no continuous tense. They have been conquered from back in the 60s when they lost the war, and are being sore losers instead of accepting their predicament and dealing with it like mature people.

"The Native Americans need to stop complaining about how we genocided the fuck out of them and accept their predicament like mature people."

It is disturbing to me how many Americans are pro-genocide.

 

[Buyetyen]

The whole thing is Israel based on the reasoning of the founding of the country, which we are functioning under. They just had trouble fully realizing that reasoning due to local resistance. You can think of it like squatters being allowed to squat cause it's easier than evicting them. Eventually they do want em gone so they can paint the walls and get new carpets in and whatnot.

No, the land was simultaneously promised to both the Palestinians and the Israelis following WWI. That's why we have this problem. Educate yourself instead of shooting your mouth off.

 

[Dreiko]

No, the land was simultaneously promised to both the Palestinians and the Israelis following WWI. That's why we have this problem. Educate yourself instead of shooting your mouth off.

That's not their claim to the land though, they're saying it belonged to them thousands of years ago and they're just retrieving it now. They say that god gave it to them. The UN just like, formalized it or something.

You may disagree with this perspective but it's very clear that this is the system we're actually operating under.

Who is "we"?

Everyone who doesn't wanna drive israelis to the sea I guess. Basically the civilized world.


Some of the "we" may not consciously acknowledge that this is the rubric they're behaving under, but it very clearly is.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Buyetyen]

That's not their claim to the land though, they're saying it belonged to them thousands of years ago and they're just retrieving it now. They say that god gave it to them. The UN just like, formalized it or something.

You may disagree with this perspective but it's very clear that this is the system we're actually operating under.

Again, you demonstrate your complete lack of knowledge about the history of the region. Palestinian Muslims and Jews had been living together in the region peacefully for centuries. The British empire promised the land to both under shady circumstances and then left them to fight over it. Israel has been acquiring land by force.

Be honest, is it just because they're Muslims that you hate Palestinians?

 

[Dreiko]

Again, you demonstrate your complete lack of knowledge about the history of the region. Palestinian Muslims and Jews had been living together in the region peacefully for centuries. The British empire promised the land to both under shady circumstances and then left them to fight over it. Israel has been acquiring land by force.

Be honest, is it just because they're Muslims that you hate Palestinians?

I don't hate anyone. I'm critical of the terrorism simply. The same logic that lets israel feel justified in genociding people because they identify as victims is the one that people use to explain away firing rockets indiscriminately as a response to evictions and provocations. It's wrong in both instances.

I'm agnostic so I don't actually take part in any of the religious wars, I don't think that muslims are any more deluded than any other religious group. The only difference is that there's way more muslim theocratic nations than other ones, in fact the only non-muslim theocracy I can think of right now is the vatican, and theocracy leads to a lot of backwards shit no matter which faith it is based on.

 

[Buyetyen]

I don't hate anyone. I'm critical of the terrorism simply. The same logic that lets israel feel justified in genociding people because they identify as victims is the one that people use to explain away firing rockets indiscriminately as a response to evictions and provocations. It's wrong in both instances.

I don't think anybody here wants any rockets fired at anybody. Who is saying Hamas should murder people? Name names.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I don't think you're resisting oppression by firing random rockets in the general vicinity of Israel. It's an idiotic tactic. They would do better to just give up all their land and then go join Isis and perform terrorism that way cause that might actually work. Rockets get shot down by the iron dome in most instances and they hardly hit any strategic targets even when they do land.

So, we either have to believe that they are mentally handicapped and just going apeshit cause they're mad, or they're not really into resisting in the way we understand it, but rather are motivated by religious fervor and are playing the parts they believe they have to play in putting up tacit resistance, knowing they are doomed to dying in the process. It's basically death cult behavior that puts honor and religiosity above life.


I don't think Israel is obligated to care more about Hamas lives than they care about their own lives, and the normal Palestinian people who live in Israel's gaza area and are trapped by their leaders into being sacrifices for the media and their god need to have a revolution and overthrow their cultist leadership.

Stepping back in here stupidly to point out the Iron Dome only blocks 9 in every 10 rockets at present and is reportedly down to I think it was 1,600 interceptor rounds to maintain it.

Also Israel gives warnings in advance about what it's targeting to try and get people out but Hamas just fires it's rockets

 

[Trunkage]

I don't think you're resisting oppression by firing random rockets in the general vicinity of Israel. It's an idiotic tactic. They would do better to just give up all their land and then go join Isis and perform terrorism that way cause that might actually work. Rockets get shot down by the iron dome in most instances and they hardly hit any strategic targets even when they do land.

So, we either have to believe that they are mentally handicapped and just going apeshit cause they're mad, or they're not really into resisting in the way we understand it, but rather are motivated by religious fervor and are playing the parts they believe they have to play in putting up tacit resistance, knowing they are doomed to dying in the process. It's basically death cult behavior that puts honor and religiosity above life.


I don't think Israel is obligated to care more about Hamas lives than they care about their own lives, and the normal Palestinian people who live in Israel's gaza area and are trapped by their leaders into being sacrifices for the media and their god need to have a revolution and overthrow their cultist leadership.

The Palestinians are not ISIS. Just because they share a religion, doesn't mean they like each other.

 

[Dreiko]

I don't think anybody here wants any rockets fired at anybody. Who is saying Hamas should murder people? Name names.

There's always this implicit condemnation of criticism of the rocket firing because of Israel's response to it, as if that makes firing rockets something not worth criticizing. Any time someone tries to make a case for hating specific groups when you criticize rockets being fired they're doing the same thing Israel does by calling folks who criticize them antisemetic. It's all the same logic. It's all incorrect.

The Palestinians are not ISIS. Just because they share a religion, doesn't mean they like each other.

They sure seem to fight in an isis-like fashion with suicide bombings and indiscriminate rockets being fired in the general vicinity of the enemy country though. Also both are backed by Iran. Maybe if they got to know eachother they'd get along, they should do a barbecue or something.

 

[Trunkage]

I haven't personally seen any Republican particularly critical of Biden's public response to the last few days. The criticisms I have seen of the Biden administration from the right over this matter are things in the period leading up to this: a) there are empty diplomatic positions in the region that haven't been filled yet (which seems like an unfair criticism, there are always unfilled positions early in a term) and b) they chose to release $235 million in aid to Palestine that had been blocked a few years ago, and 1 month later war is breaking out. Drawing a direct line between the money and the rockets is a bit of a stretch, but the Gaza Strip at least is governed by Hamas, and Biden wants to "restore credible engagement" with them, and their engagement tends to be rockets, so there is definitely a perspective where it looks like changes in US policy helped push this.

Steve Doocy apparently answered this today. Apparently, the GOP wants the ceasefire. Biden keeps blocking the UN from calling a ceasefire. Which makes me agree with Doocy and the GOP. I dont know how calling for a ceasefire is seen as a bad thing

I'm sure you'll be glad about this. Seem fair after giving Palestine all that humanitarian aid. (I'm being sarcastic. I don't think you'll be glad.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/17/power-up-biden-administration-approves-735-million-weapons-sale-israel-raising-red-flags-some-house-democrats/

So what do you think Hamas should do?

Edit: oh, I think Doocy meant that Biden was favouring the Palestinians by not going for a cease fire.... which is laughable. Biden hasn’t given a crap about Palestinians for a long time. So I’ll agree with Doccy somewhat but point out that he’s done a stupid again

 

[Trunkage]

They sure seem to fight in an isis-like fashion with suicide bombings and indiscriminate rockets being fired in the general vicinity of the enemy country though. Also both are backed by Iran. Maybe if they got to know eachother they'd get along, they should do a barbecue or something.

They have different ideologies. They dont get on at all. Also one group is doing defense, one is doing offense. No, I dont support Hamas. All those rockets was meant to provoke an overreaction from the IDF. And they fell for it. Edit: I really dont being manipulated like this but the IDF is out of control. So I'll criticise both

Iran is trying to destabilise the region so they can kick the US out of the region. They're funding everyone that the Saudis don't. Eg. The Saudis are funding ISIS. You know, the ally of the US. They won big against Trump, and if I was them, I'd make sure I have nuclear weapons now. There has been rumours that Biden might ask IRAN to take over the peace keeping roll in Afghanistan after the US leaves. We'll see how that turns out. This would return Iran to the state it was before Bush's Axis of Evil Speech. Because Iran was best buds with the US taking out the Taliban before that speech. US and Irani special forces working together again to take out those naughty Taliban

 

[Revnak]

I wonder how many children he killed to deserve this?

 

[Buyetyen]

There's always this implicit condemnation of criticism of the rocket firing because of Israel's response to it, as if that makes firing rockets something not worth criticizing. Any time someone tries to make a case for hating specific groups when you criticize rockets being fired they're doing the same thing Israel does by calling folks who criticize them antisemetic. It's all the same logic. It's all incorrect.

So nobody's actually said it, you simply assume they think so.