Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[tstorm823]

Israel wouldn't even agree to your way in any sense that would matter. They wouldn't tear down the walls, dismantle the checkpoints, stop the ethnic cleansing, or especially not give so many Arabs the right to vote. There would just be fewer maps that specify the Palestinian Territories as something apart from Israel.

I agree. Isreal would not want to do that. But writing up charters about how the region should be a Muslim Arab ethno-state and shooting rockets at those who disagree isn't a fight that can ever be won, nor should it be. "This should not be an ethno-state, take down the checkpoints" is a fight there is a remote possibility of winning, though not stabbing people or firing rockets would be required.

 

[Seanchaidh]

I agree. Isreal would not want to do that. But writing up charters about how the region should be a Muslim Arab ethno-state and shooting rockets at those who disagree isn't a fight that can ever be won, nor should it be. "This should not be an ethno-state, take down the checkpoints" is a fight there is a remote possibility of winning, though not stabbing people or firing rockets would be required.

Do you know when the African National Congress was taken off of the US government list of terrorist organizations?

 

[tstorm823]

Do you know when the African National Congress was taken off of the US government list of terrorist organizations?

Some amount of time after they stopped bombing banks. Why do you ask?

 

[Seanchaidh]

Some amount of time after they stopped bombing banks. Why do you ask?

I ask because it highlights that an oppressed and colonized people can be violent while at the same time making progress toward ending their oppression.

 

[Silvanus]

Also, my favorite News Media IGN backing down from doing the right thing.

An update on this side-show;

An Open Letter to Leadership at IGN, Ziff Davis, and J2 Global

To the management of J2 Global and Ziff Davis, and the corporate leadership of IGN:

ignemployees.medium.com

 

[tstorm823]

I ask because it highlights that an oppressed and colonized people can be violent while at the same time making progress toward ending their oppression.

A person can walk and chew gum at the same time, but that doesn't mean chewing gum helps you walk. Hell, a person can walk and juggle at the same time if they're a good juggler, but the walking distinctly makes the juggling harder. If all you care about is the juggling part, you should probably not try and walk around at the same time.

Also, your example is of a single nation with multiple interests ending in a peaceful transition of power, not a conflict between multiple states. Doesn't seem like a very good argument against my suggestion here. You can't exactly Nelson Mandela a conflict with a different country.

 

[Silvanus]

Also, your example is of a single nation with multiple interests ending in a peaceful transition of power, not a conflict between multiple states. Doesn't seem like a very good argument against my suggestion here. You can't exactly Nelson Mandela a conflict with a different country.

"Multiple states"? "Different country"? Are you conceding to Palestinian statehood then?

 

[Seanchaidh]

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Like, sure: human shields and suicide attacks bad, but if you're taking away people's jobs, healthcare, and food, what the entire fuck do you expect?

"We've treated them like animals for decades, and now they're acting like animals! This just proves we were right!"

 

[tstorm823]

"Multiple states"? "Different country"? Are you conceding to Palestinian statehood then?

Sure? I mean, it gets complicated because there are two different Palestinian governments and a bunch of contested land with Israel, but saying there's currently a Palestinian state doesn't really feel like a concession.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

It's not niceness. By your own insistent description of the ineffectiveness of rockets, they'd be taking more from Israel my way than yours.

If you believe that, then you truly have no idea how colonialism works.

West Bank barrier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Like, read up on US history. We did this, and look at how many negotiated treaties we flat out ignored as soon as the people we screwed over found a new useful resource. Or pristine mountain good for a monument. Or a group of kids to indoctrinate. Or stubble grasslands cows could graze on

 

[Silvanus]

Sure? I mean, it gets complicated because there are two different Palestinian governments and a bunch of contested land with Israel, but saying there's currently a Palestinian state doesn't really feel like a concession.

Statehood would convey the right to enforce borders by force, and to self-defence. That'd mean no more settlement-building, and an internationally-recognised right to prevent it by force. It'd mean the ability to develop their own industry and trade without sanction. Its a massive deal.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

So, considering the IDF has a military base smack dab in the middle of Tel Aviv, that means any rockets launched towards there and the resulting civilian casualties are justified per IDF logic, right?

 

[tstorm823]

If you believe that, then you truly have no idea how colonialism works.

In what way? Are you saying Israel is a colony? Are you saying the Gaza Strip and West Bank are colonies? What are you trying to imply that I don't understand. Please be explicit.

Statehood would convey the right to enforce borders by force, and to self-defence. That'd mean no more settlement-building, and an internationally-recognised right to prevent it by force. It'd mean the ability to develop their own industry and trade without sanction. Its a massive deal.

You don't think there are territory disputes between states? You think statehood prevents sanctions? You don't think Palestinians defend their borders by force?

 

[dreng3]

You don't think there are territory disputes between states? You think statehood prevents sanctions? You don't think Palestinians defend their borders by force?

An internationally acknowledged state of Palestine would have the option to apply for full UN membership, sanctions and border blockades could be interpreted as acts of aggression allowing not only Palestine but parternes of defensive alliances to use force, and a palestinian state could become a full party to the Rome Statute of the ICC, meaning that Israel could actually be held responsible in an international court of law.

 

[Silvanus]

You don't think there are territory disputes between states? You think statehood prevents sanctions? You don't think Palestinians defend their borders by force?

I think you might need to read the post again.

The idea that statehood is "not much of a concession" is ridiculous. It's one of the absolute central points of dispute for half a century. Failing to recognise that would indicate a complete failure to understand the very basics of the conflict.

 

[tstorm823]

An internationally acknowledged state of Palestine would have the option to apply for full UN membership, sanctions and border blockades could be interpreted as acts of aggression allowing not only Palestine but parternes of defensive alliances to use force, and a palestinian state could become a full party to the Rome Statute of the ICC, meaning that Israel could actually be held responsible in an international court of law.

Sanctions and border blockades are interpreted as acts of aggression. Palestinians and their international allies do use force. The ICC behaves as though it can hold Israel responsible for things, though Israel not being a member is a bigger roadblock than Palestine. I get you guys are talking about international legal nonsense, but the fact is that Israel and Palestine are currently acting as 2 separate entities that I think are reasonably described as states. I am not king of the US, my statement doesn't change the situation internationally, but that seems very obviously the reality at the moment.

 

[Trunkage]

So Ebrahim Raisi has been pushed forward as the new leader of Iran. Their.... 'election cycle' is only a few weeks

Raisi is a hard line conservative. Which means that this is probably in response to Israel and their desire to be protected from rhe IDF

The Middle East is about to get more.... interesting

 

[Agema]

In what way? Are you saying Israel is a colony? Are you saying the Gaza Strip and West Bank are colonies? What are you trying to imply that I don't understand. Please be explicit.

Arguably, Israel is a colony.

1) The original term comes from the ancient Greeks. They migrated out to other places and set up independent cities where they effectively imposed rule over the locals. Obvious examples were city states like Syracuse, Tarentum, Byzantium, Ephesus, etc. Likewise did the Phoenecians form similar colonies (Carthage, most famously). When the Romans conquered areas, they would usually dot them with bits of Roman population: and indeed if you look at the names on maps of the Roman empire, you will see places called "Colonia ...", indicating such a town/city

2) In the colonial era, it more represents the far-flung possessions of European empires: although these were not independent in the way that colonies in the ancient world were. Hence the USA stops being thought of as a group of colonies the minute it gained independence.

3) If we think about the term "colonisation", this generally means the substantial movement of a people to somewhere, usually also with the implication they take it over.

So Israel is not technically a colony under point (2) as it is an independent country. However, in just about all other ways imaginable, it either is a colony or is so indistinguishable from what goes on in colonisation that it's not worth disputing.

 

[Trunkage]

As to the general state of use of bombing.... some organizations have been able to use it effectively to gain political power. Some have not. Same with political sanctions. Usually they are utterly ineffective

Most times its irrelevant what you do. Unless all the capitalist move away from the country, or that the country becomes not strategic, the country will just not care. Take South Africa for example. It's not suprising that nothing happened on the apartheid front until 92, straight after the US pulled much of It's money out after the Soviet fell. It went from being super strategic to unimportant in months. Israel is only getting away with this because the US uses it as a strategic base to attack a bunch of other countries. Nothing will change unless that fact changes