Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Gergar12]

Both Netanyahu and Benny Gantz are war criminals, starting a conflict unprovoked for domestic political gain.

Also, my favorite News Media IGN backing down from doing the right thing.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I don't think anybody here wants any rockets fired at anybody. Who is saying Hamas should murder people? Name names.

Seanchaidh in this thread has advocated for giving weapons to Hamas so they can fire at Israel more effectively, has stated that Hamas are only right to be indescriminately firing rockets into Israel, and talking about excitement for the idea of Palestinians attacking Israeli forces with knives at checkpoints.

You literally don't have to look any further than THIS THREAD to find someone who wants Hamas firing rockets at Israel and thinks it's their right to do so.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Both Netanyahu and Benny Gantz are war criminals, starting a conflict unprovoked for domestic political gain.

Also, my favorite News Media IGN backing down from doing the right thing.

"The right thing to do"

Would have been to pick neutral charities and not affix a Palestine flag banner at the top of the site.

What IGN did was pick charities that specifically only support Palestine and some of which have been accused of being fronts for funding Hamas.

Yes Palastine is getting hit harder (though they get warnings for the intended targets with about 1 hour or so notice) Israel is being hit by Hamas rockets with no warning and the Iron Dome only stops 9 in every 10 so one rocket per salvo of 10 can break through and hit targets they didn't know were being targeted.

Neutral charities would have been better if IGN felt it really needed to take a stand.

Also no before it's brought up pulling the piece wouldn't be censorship because IGN isn't an open platform to all anyway. If them pulling this is censorship then them refusing to publish any submission is also censorship and them pulling the infamously terrible Football Manager review years ago would also be censorship when the review was terrible objecting to the game not being Fifa basically.

 

[Trunkage]

Seanchaidh in this thread has advocated for giving weapons to Hamas so they can fire at Israel more effectively, has stated that Hamas are only right to be indescriminately firing rockets into Israel, and talking about excitement for the idea of Palestinians attacking Israeli forces with knives at checkpoints.

You literally don't have to look any further than THIS THREAD to find someone who wants Hamas firing rockets at Israel and thinks it's their right to do so.

Why does Israel have the right to send rockets but not Hamas?

 

[Trunkage]

My apologies for the late reply.
Well, I am not that well versed in Native American history so correct me if I am wrong. Based on what I have read it does indeed appear very genocidal due to the fact the displacement was forced towards an absurdly remote area and involved a deadly journey which showed an absolute disregard for human lives (what happens in Gaza now is peanuts compare to that). However if this event was the only disgusting measure ever taken against Native Americans I would argue it may have not been genocidal. It's the context which makes it rather conclusive. Native Americans have been persecuted pretty much all over North America with attempts at cultural genocide (eg.: kidnapping children to put them in Christian boarding schools where they were forced to reject their cultural heritage and native language) and faced a lot of massacres and percecutions. In that context this atrocious event is one of the many elements/events which together paint a rather clear genocidal picture.

In contrast the Arab/Muslim community in Israel is not facing cultural genocide, they are still allowed to speak Arab, to be practicing muslims, etc. Their population has actually continuously increased as well, even their share of the total Israeli population has increased (although that may be due to the land annexations). So despite a lot of Israel's policies towards Gaza and Occupied Palestine being despicable, if they had a genocidal intent they seem to be truly ineffective.

So, if the Palestinians are evicted from Israel, that’s not type of genocide
Would you call it an apartheid then?

 

[Trunkage]

"The right thing to do"

Would have been to pick neutral charities and not affix a Palestine flag banner at the top of the site.

What IGN did was pick charities that specifically only support Palestine and some of which have been accused of being fronts for funding Hamas.

Yes Palastine is getting hit harder (though they get warnings for the intended targets with about 1 hour or so notice) Israel is being hit by Hamas rockets with no warning and the Iron Dome only stops 9 in every 10 so one rocket per salvo of 10 can break through and hit targets they didn't know were being targeted.

Neutral charities would have been better if IGN felt it really needed to take a stand.

Also no before it's brought up pulling the piece wouldn't be censorship because IGN isn't an open platform to all anyway. If them pulling this is censorship then them refusing to publish any submission is also censorship and them pulling the infamously terrible Football Manager review years ago would also be censorship when the review was terrible objecting to the game not being Fifa basically.

Just to be clear, Hamas gave Israel an ultimatum after the mosque killings but before sending rockets over. It was something like ‘stop killing our people or taking our houses’. Israel failed to respond so they sent rockets. It wasn’t without warning, they gave a few days. It wasn’t a specific site like Israel... I don’t know if Hamas would have that level of capability. So, you claim they were less discriminating

Which brings me to a really stupid thing I dislike about this whole conflict. ‘We’ll bomb you but since we gave you a warning, it’s okay.’ Yeah, no thank you world leaders.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Just to be clear, Hamas gave Israel an ultimatum after the mosque killings but before sending rockets over. It was something like ‘stop killing our people or taking our houses’. Israel failed to respond so they sent rockets. It wasn’t without warning, they gave a few days. It wasn’t a specific site like Israel... I don’t know if Hamas would have that level of capability. So, you claim they were less discriminating

Which brings me to a really stupid thing I dislike about this whole conflict. ‘We’ll bomb you but since we gave you a warning, it’s okay.’ Yeah, no thank you world leaders.

I stand corrected on that then.
Looked at the ultimatum. This seems even more petty now.

Israel Gaza conflict: Netanyahu says strikes to 'continue at full force'

The Israeli PM's comments come as the UN Security Council met to try to broker a ceasefire.

www.bbc.co.uk

Early morning clashes break out between police and Palestinians at the al-Aqsa mosque compound, where crowds throw stones and officers fire stun grenades.

Palestinian anger has been inflamed by an annual Jerusalem Day march planned for later in the day by hundreds of Israeli nationalists to celebrate Israel's capture of East Jerusalem in 1967.

The march is due to pass through predominantly Arab parts of the Old City in what is seen by Palestinians as a deliberate provocation. It is rerouted at the 11th hour, but the atmosphere remains volatile with more than 300 Palestinians and some 21 police injured in the violence at the holy site.

Hamas issues an ultimatum to Israel to “withdraw its soldiers... from the blessed al-Aqsa mosque and Sheikh Jarrah” by 18:00. When the deadline passes without an Israeli response, rockets are fired towards Jerusalem for the first time in years.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the group has “crossed a red line” and Israel retaliates with air strikes, killing three Hamas fighters.

A continuing exchange of rocket-fire and air strikes quickly escalates into the fiercest hostilities between the two sides since they fought a war in 2014.

As for "We'll bomb you but give you warning. It's not great but it's better than we'll just bomb you and give no notice."

A number of the deaths so far (1/4) have been tunnel collapses in Palestine from tunnels hidden under buildings etc used as supply routes but I seem to remember argued to be used in some cases as arms smuggling routes too.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Why does Israel have the right to send rockets but not Hamas?

No one has the "right" to send rockets.

Now I'm far from an expert on the history of violence in the region, but from my understanding, the escalation of violence was started (way back in 1947) by the Palastinians against the Israelis, then in 1948 the Palastinians (backed by Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq) had a war against Israel and lost. Then there were continued attacks by Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt against Israel through the 50s and 60s with continuous refusal of negotiations by Palestine. In the 70s there were terrorist attacks by Palestinians against the Israelis, etc.

Throughout the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the Palestinians tend to be the ones who start the violence and who continually refuse peace talks. The Palestinians and their allies have said numerous times that they won't be satisfied by anything less than the total dismantling of Israel and the complete return of Palestinian lands which was always a pipe dream.

It seems pretty reasonable (not moral, just understandable based on average human psychology) for Israelis who were raised in a climate where their enemies were on all sides, with constant attacks against Israel, to be pretty jaded by the prospect of peace with Palestine, or to have little empathy for the Palestinians after all the terrorist attacks. They've now been raised with a "they brought it on themselves" attitude and it's not 100% wrong (though it's definitely a twisted way of looking at things given that it's been several generations since the original conflict). To be real though, very few countries have ever had much empathy toward their "enemies" and Hamas have done a great job of making themselves the enemy of Israel by constantly calling for its destruction.

In no way do I think that the treatment of the Palestinians has been correct or moral on the part of the Israelis. As has been pointed out before, Gaza is literally an open air prison. The problem is that Israel and Palestine have had plenty of opportunities for peace in the last 70 years, and for the most part it's been the Palestinians who refuse to come to the table and negotiate, based on their belief that a coalition of Arab nations would get rid of Israel for them eventually. As that gets less and less likely the Israelis are also less likely to make any kind of concessions to Palestine.

Overall it's a fucked conflict. No one is in the right. At this point the Palestinians are throwing tantrums because they lost everything over decades of refusing peace talks and negotiations and no longer have enough support from their allies to have a significant chance at a better future. The Israelis have gotten powerful enough that they no longer care about getting the Palestinians on board with any plans and just do what they want.

 

[Revnak]

It’s great how little anyone here understands about rockets. Hamas uses them because they are cheap, but they are (and have always been) surprisingly ineffective and unpredictable weapons due to their common lack of a reliable triggering mechanism and the fact that, by definition, they don’t have a targeting system. Hamas does not know where their rockets will hit or if they’ll actually go off because they are rockets and that’s how rockets work. Now, one can reasonably argue that this method creates unnecessary collateral damage, but you know what else does? Bombs. And it’s very easy to run the very simple numbers and find that in terms of damaged property, loss of life, and ecological impact, Israel has caused an order of magnitude more collateral damage. By the very complaint of “indiscriminate rockets” you’re simultaneously condemning Israel more because their weapons systems are more indiscriminate in outcome.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

No one has the "right" to send rockets.

Now I'm far from an expert on the history of violence in the region, but from my understanding, the escalation of violence was started (way back in 1947) by the Palastinians against the Israelis, then in 1948 the Palastinians (backed by Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq) had a war against Israel and lost. Then there were continued attacks by Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt against Israel through the 50s and 60s with continuous refusal of negotiations by Palestine. In the 70s there were terrorist attacks by Palestinians against the Israelis, etc.

Throughout the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the Palestinians tend to be the ones who start the violence and who continually refuse peace talks. The Palestinians and their allies have said numerous times that they won't be satisfied by anything less than the total dismantling of Israel and the complete return of Palestinian lands which was always a pipe dream.

It seems pretty reasonable (not moral, just understandable based on average human psychology) for Israelis who were raised in a climate where their enemies were on all sides, with constant attacks against Israel, to be pretty jaded by the prospect of peace with Palestine, or to have little empathy for the Palestinians after all the terrorist attacks. They've now been raised with a "they brought it on themselves" attitude and it's not 100% wrong (though it's definitely a twisted way of looking at things given that it's been several generations since the original conflict). To be real though, very few countries have ever had much empathy toward their "enemies" and Hamas have done a great job of making themselves the enemy of Israel by constantly calling for its destruction.

In no way do I think that the treatment of the Palestinians has been correct or moral on the part of the Israelis. As has been pointed out before, Gaza is literally an open air prison. The problem is that Israel and Palestine have had plenty of opportunities for peace in the last 70 years, and for the most part it's been the Palestinians who refuse to come to the table and negotiate, based on their belief that a coalition of Arab nations would get rid of Israel for them eventually. As that gets less and less likely the Israelis are also less likely to make any kind of concessions to Palestine.

Overall it's a fucked conflict. No one is in the right. At this point the Palestinians are throwing tantrums because they lost everything over decades of refusing peace talks and negotiations and no longer have enough support from their allies to have a significant chance at a better future. The Israelis have gotten powerful enough that they no longer care about getting the Palestinians on board with any plans and just do what they want.

If I took in a person who needed help and they proceeded to claim half of my apartment for themselves, how am I in the wrong for trying to kick them out?
The idea that Palestinians in general are at fault for not being okay with being colonized is so completely outside my worldview that I can't really explain how fucked I find it. *If* Israel wasn't continually expansionist, then *maybe* I could see the point, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
This has all the hallmarks of the US's bullshit "I know we made a treaty with the Native Americans but some of them didn't like it and they still have some good land so we're going to continually "renegotiate" them onto shittier and shittier reservations and if some bits of them fight back we don't mind excessive civilian casualties" idea.
Like, Netanyahu's proposal in 2010 was "we're fine with Palestine as a country, as long as any current Palestinian refugees can't return home when finalized and that Israeli settlements in the West Bank get to continue expanding into Palestinian territory." How the fuck is *that* negotiated in good faith?

 

[Trunkage]

I stand corrected on that then.
Looked at the ultimatum. This seems even more petty now.

Israel Gaza conflict: Netanyahu says strikes to 'continue at full force'

The Israeli PM's comments come as the UN Security Council met to try to broker a ceasefire.

www.bbc.co.uk

As for "We'll bomb you but give you warning. It's not great but it's better than we'll just bomb you and give no notice."

A number of the deaths so far (1/4) have been tunnel collapses in Palestine from tunnels hidden under buildings etc used as supply routes but I seem to remember argued to be used in some cases as arms smuggling routes too.

I might not support much smuggling. That smuggling I do support because the Israelis are starving then out. I wish they would stop also smuggling munitions, as I think this hurts their cause, but as can be seen by Western media, nobody gives a fuck about them.

 

[Trunkage]

No one has the "right" to send rockets.

Now I'm far from an expert on the history of violence in the region, but from my understanding, the escalation of violence was started (way back in 1947) by the Palastinians against the Israelis, then in 1948 the Palastinians (backed by Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Iraq) had a war against Israel and lost. Then there were continued attacks by Jordan, Palestine, and Egypt against Israel through the 50s and 60s with continuous refusal of negotiations by Palestine. In the 70s there were terrorist attacks by Palestinians against the Israelis, etc.

Throughout the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the Palestinians tend to be the ones who start the violence and who continually refuse peace talks. The Palestinians and their allies have said numerous times that they won't be satisfied by anything less than the total dismantling of Israel and the complete return of Palestinian lands which was always a pipe dream.

It seems pretty reasonable (not moral, just understandable based on average human psychology) for Israelis who were raised in a climate where their enemies were on all sides, with constant attacks against Israel, to be pretty jaded by the prospect of peace with Palestine, or to have little empathy for the Palestinians after all the terrorist attacks. They've now been raised with a "they brought it on themselves" attitude and it's not 100% wrong (though it's definitely a twisted way of looking at things given that it's been several generations since the original conflict). To be real though, very few countries have ever had much empathy toward their "enemies" and Hamas have done a great job of making themselves the enemy of Israel by constantly calling for its destruction.

In no way do I think that the treatment of the Palestinians has been correct or moral on the part of the Israelis. As has been pointed out before, Gaza is literally an open air prison. The problem is that Israel and Palestine have had plenty of opportunities for peace in the last 70 years, and for the most part it's been the Palestinians who refuse to come to the table and negotiate, based on their belief that a coalition of Arab nations would get rid of Israel for them eventually. As that gets less and less likely the Israelis are also less likely to make any kind of concessions to Palestine.

Overall it's a fucked conflict. No one is in the right. At this point the Palestinians are throwing tantrums because they lost everything over decades of refusing peace talks and negotiations and no longer have enough support from their allies to have a significant chance at a better future. The Israelis have gotten powerful enough that they no longer care about getting the Palestinians on board with any plans and just do what they want.

'The peace talks went generally like this: Oh, so you think a two state solution is optimal. Great so do we. Wait, why are we being given a state with no resources? Oh... you just want to give the crap part of Israel and pretend you're the good guys.'

There was a reason why Arafat never signed anything. The Palestinians condition would have been no different from now, but they would have agreed to it. And I also have no doubt the Israelis would have just invade this new Palestinian state to take it back. The leader of Israel are know for not keeping their word

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I might not support much smuggling. That smuggling I do support because the Israelis are starving then out. I wish they would stop also smuggling munitions, as I think this hurts their cause, but as can be seen by Western media, nobody gives a fuck about them.

You know, I've seen takes on Twitter that say "well, why don't the Palestinians build bunkers like the Israelis if they don't want their building collapsing from bombs" and it's like: because Israel doesn't let Gaza have industry. Period. No imported steel or concrete, no fuel, no fishing, no industrial exports, no "dual use" items, which in the past have included things like lentils and fruit jam. Fuck your legume based weapons system, I guess. These are the people that the Palestinians are supposed negotiate in good faith with?
Hell, Israel occasionally collects tax money and then doesn't distribute it to the Palestinian government like they're supposed to.

Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Like, sure: human shields and suicide attacks bad, but if you're taking away people's jobs, healthcare, and food, what the entire fuck do you expect?

 

[Seanchaidh]

Seanchaidh in this thread has advocated for giving weapons to Hamas so they can fire at Israel more effectively,

And more precisely, most importantly. But yes, it'd be nice if they could also defeat the military force that is enforcing the ethnic cleansing, blockade, and so forth.

has stated that Hamas are only right to be indescriminately firing rockets into Israel,

Because the other choice is to just roll over and die while the world ignores them. They don't have access to a better alternative.

Throughout the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the Palestinians tend to be the ones who start the violence and who continually refuse peace talks.

Their rights are continuously being violated.


"We Jews are supposed to take pride in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, because unlike all the other Jews, we're told, all the other Jews went like sheep to slaughter. But the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, we're supposed to be proud of them. They gave us dignity. They resisted the Nazi oppressors and murderers. But the Gazans, they're supposed to go like sheep to slaughter. They're just supposed to languish in that prison, languish in that concentration camp and the Israelis are supposed to carry on like they don't exist. They're supposed to be allowed to carry on like they don't exist. No! Sorry, if the Jews have the right to resist, they have the right to resist. So, what's my answer to the rockets? Stop torturing them. Stop torturing them."

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Thaluikhain]

Criticisms of Allied strategic bombing take for granted that World War 2 could have been won without so much civilian death; that they had an alternative.

Not to mention that the result of such criticism was that Bomber Harris got a knighthood, but wasn't made a lord.

 

[tstorm823]

So what do you think Hamas should do?

Surrender. Push to be part of Isreal. Advocate for themselves within the single state.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Surrender. Push to be part of Isreal. Advocate for themselves within the single state.

Be nicer to the people keeping you in a concentration camp and see what happens.

I haven't seen Red Dawn, but I imagine the lesson of the movie is that if the Soviet Union should invade and take over, it would be best to just accept it and move on patiently advocating for one's interests within the new order.

 

[tstorm823]

Be nicer to the people keeping you in a concentration camp and see what happens.

It's not niceness. By your own insistent description of the ineffectiveness of rockets, they'd be taking more from Israel my way than yours.

 

[Seanchaidh]

It's not niceness. By your own insistent description of the ineffectiveness of rockets, they'd be taking more from Israel my way than yours.

Israel wouldn't even agree to your way in any sense that would matter. They wouldn't tear down the walls, dismantle the checkpoints, stop the ethnic cleansing, or especially not give so many Arabs the right to vote. There would just be fewer maps that specify the Palestinian Territories as something apart from Israel.