Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

crimson5pheonix

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"Entire"
"By force"
"No right of return".

All of these things were not stated.

If you're reading "the entire population" into the phrase "civilians caught in the crossfire", you're making a massive leap. The term "people" doesn't mean "all people". 9 times out of 10, that's simply not how it's used. In the same way as we can't assume the phrase "British people like tea" means "the entire population of Britain likes tea", even if that's a technically correct reading, because it's absurd.
Okay but the entirely of the Gaza strip was displaced, by force. This historically happened. It happened for 15 months. Most of this thread is an extensive documentation of literally all of that happening. And the people involved with the negotiation directly said there was no right to return promised, which is part of why they turned him down. At this point you're just denying reality.
 
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Satinavian

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And the people involved with the negotiation directly said there was no right to return promised
Sure, because "right of return" was not something the US or Biden can guarantee, only Israel and Netanyahu. And the latter certainly wanted to expell as many people as he could geht away with.
 

Silvanus

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Okay but the entirely of the Gaza strip was displaced, by force. This historically happened. It happened for 15 months. Most of this thread is an extensive documentation of literally all of that happening.
Yes, no disputing that here. This mass internal displacement occurred over many hundreds of routes, without borders or bottlenecks, and without a single starting or end point.

And the people involved with the negotiation directly said there was no right to return promised, which is part of why they turned him down. At this point you're just denying reality.
Well, one side of the negotiation said that, and the other side said they would have that right.

Either side could be lying (they'd both have reason to). I don't want to assume. But if we're discussing the stated intent of the US Administration, then yeah, the two positions on right-of-return are opposite.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Sure, because "right of return" was not something the US or Biden can guarantee, only Israel and Netanyahu. And the latter certainly wanted to expell as many people as he could geht away with.
Indeed, that's why I said this happened.

Yes, no disputing that here. This mass internal displacement occurred over many hundreds of routes, without borders or bottlenecks, and without a single starting or end point.
Well the end point was the southern tip of Gaza, specifically Rafah. They were all rounded up and put at this camp. Concentrated, if you will. All they needed at that point was for the Rafah border to be opened.


Well, one side of the negotiation said that, and the other side said they would have that right.

Either side could be lying (they'd both have reason to). I don't want to assume. But if we're discussing the stated intent of the US Administration, then yeah, the two positions on right-of-return are opposite.
Biden proved himself thoroughly untrustworthy during this whole affair, if he ever said he was securing a right to return, and other people in the negotiation said he was lying, it's best to assume he was lying. As Satinavian points out, the real arbiters over whether they'd be able to return or not is Israel, and these 15 months are proof that the US would never contradict Israel.
 

Silvanus

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Well the end point was the southern tip of Gaza, specifically Rafah. They were all rounded up and put at this camp. Concentrated, if you will. All they needed at that point was for the Rafah border to be opened.
These internal evacuations were essentially orders. They issued orders, gave (tiny) timeframes, and then proceeded to bomb the areas. The movement was largely left to those leaving, rather than rounding them up or organising it themselves. The result was chaos, which I suspect was partly what the IDF intended.

Biden proved himself thoroughly untrustworthy during this whole affair, if he ever said he was securing a right to return, and other people in the negotiation said he was lying, it's best to assume he was lying.
Like I said, I'm not taking him at his word-- I'm making this point because you appeared to be arguing that Biden's /stated intent/ was the same as Trump's in denying right of return.

I'm looking at actions, and arguing that those actions make zero sense in the context you're suggesting. If someone with access to a wrecking-ball arrives at a building with just a hand-drill, it doesn't make sense to suggest his intent is to demolish it, even if its technically possible with a hand-drill. If that was the intent his actions would be of 100x scale.
 

crimson5pheonix

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These internal evacuations were essentially orders. They issued orders, gave (tiny) timeframes, and then proceeded to bomb the areas. The movement was largely left to those leaving, rather than rounding them up or organising it themselves. The result was chaos, which I suspect was partly what the IDF intended.



Like I said, I'm not taking him at his word-- I'm making this point because you appeared to be arguing that Biden's /stated intent/ was the same as Trump's in denying right of return.

I'm looking at actions, and arguing that those actions make zero sense in the context you're suggesting. If someone with access to a wrecking-ball arrives at a building with just a hand-drill, it doesn't make sense to suggest his intent is to demolish it, even if its technically possible with a hand-drill. If that was the intent his actions would be of 100x scale.
He didn't come with a hand drill. He came with the wrecking ball. Biden provided the weapons. Biden provided the support. Biden even supplied troops. All he had to do was open the border to 2000 people a day and Gaza would have been drained if nobody else (this is key, someone else) stopped him. These are the actions that happened. You can justify this in your mind all you want, but you have to deny reality to do so. Your entire argument hinged on 2000 people a day taking too long, and it would take less than 1 presidential term. That should be you reevaluating your position. Instead you've doubled down to minimize what Biden did. And before you get to "I've said Biden did horrible things", you've also just stated that him helping commit a genocide is the hand drill to some else's wrecking ball. You are very actively minimizing what he's done right now.
 

Trunkage

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And I wish you realized that they're two sides of the same coin and one is just stupid enough to say the plan out loud but here we are.

Also, who is the one crime laundering here? You who championed how we should vote for Holocaust Harris because she was the LESSER EVIL on genocide or myself who says they're both war criminals who deserve to go to deepest pits of hell for what they're funding Israel to do?
What has this got to do with you laundering Trump crimes?

Yes. The lesser of two evil is two side of the same coin. Thanks for repeating.
 

Trunkage

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"Entire"
"By force"
"No right of return".

All of these things were not stated.

If you're reading "the entire population" into the phrase "civilians caught in the crossfire", you're making a massive leap. The term "people" doesn't mean "all people". 9 times out of 10, that's simply not how it's used. In the same way as we can't assume the phrase "British people like tea" means "the entire population of Britain likes tea", even if that's a technically correct reading, because it's absurd.
These are the guys that said that Obama killing 1500 people with drones and Trump killing 3000 in half the time are the exact same amount of evil

It's just an on/off switch for them and not a spectrum

Edit: Also apparently if you say Biden is not as evil as Trump somehow that championing Biden
 

crimson5pheonix

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These are the guys that said that Obama killing 1500 people with drones and Trump killing 3000 in half the time are the exact same amount of evil

It's just an on/off switch for them and not a spectrum
The spectrum lands at the Hague in this case. Literally.
 

tippy2k2

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What has this got to do with you laundering Trump crimes?

Yes. The lesser of two evil is two side of the same coin. Thanks for repeating.
What am I laundering? Or is this another one of those circumstances where you guys don't understand that when I shit on Democrats, that's not me taking the sides of Republicans? Do I need to spell it out again?

Genocide is bad no matter if it is being stamped with a BLUE stamp or a RED stamp. Biden/Harris both were fine with Israel doing a genocide and that's why I refused to vote for her. Trump is also fine with Israel doing a genocide. That is why I refused to vote for him too. Given the political landscape with US Politicians loving nothing more than sucking Israel off, about 90% of politicians in this country are all going straight to Hell for crimes against humanity.

I do not understand why this concept confuses you so much.
 
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Silvanus

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He didn't come with a hand drill. He came with the wrecking ball. Biden provided the weapons. Biden provided the support. Biden even supplied troops. All he had to do was open the border to 2000 people a day and Gaza would have been drained if nobody else (this is key, someone else) stopped him. These are the actions that happened.
The bombs etc are not the hand-drill, because right now we are specifically discussing the role of the evacuation route. The minuscule size of that evacuation route, and the immediate dropping of that request, are the hand-drill. They indicate the scope of what was expected from that route.

If he wanted 2.2m people to evacuate, he would have planned for a dozen routes, tens of thousands a day, and not dropped the request in less than a month. He has the resources for that. The fact that he didn't is telling.

And before you get to "I've said Biden did horrible things", you've also just stated that him helping commit a genocide is the hand drill to some else's wrecking ball. You are very actively minimizing what he's done right now.
No, I categorically did not state that. We are talking about the intended role of the evacuation route specifically. Whether it was intended to accommodate 2.2m people or not.
 

crimson5pheonix

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The minuscule size of that evacuation route
3 years. 2.2 million in 3 years ignoring all other attrition. That's not miniscule. That's you not understanding timeframes. That is you downplaying what he tried to do. You are in fact making genocide apologia.
 

Trunkage

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Well Biden tried, so that's what it looks like.
Yep. Does Trump sound like he going to stop?

Also Crimson, do you think that the Palestinians in Deerborn thought that Trump is moral and was going to defend the Gazans? Or do you think they think that Trump was a less evil option than Biden?