Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Seanchaidh]

A) Allowing Palestinians to be Israeli Citizens?

Wow, I guess China's not doing a genocide after all.

B) Allowing countries like Qatar to fund Gaza so it doesn't collapse into Famine?

97% of the drinking water in Gaza is unfit for human consumption because of the Israeli blockade. Israel rigorously limits the amount of food that can be imported into Gaza such that the bare minimum to avoid malnutrition is all that is let in. However, there are regular power outages at Israeli whim that cause food to spoil. If that isn't a famine, it may as well be one.

C) Warns the population before they bomb targets?

Have you heard of this thing called public relations? They'd like to continue what they are doing, so when they destroy highrise residential buildings they've adopted the tactic of telling the people whose homes they are destroying to get out so that rubes will have a flimsy excuse ready for Israel destroying A HIGHRISE RESIDENTIAL BUILDING.

If Israel is committing a genocide they are showing themselves to be truly incapable idiots.

Bullshit. The progress from the beginning of the Nakba to now conveys a ruthless efficiency. Right now they are ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem neighborhood by neighborhood.

 

[Generals]

and somehow Israel expects the world to be on their side?

And right now they are correct.
Arab nations don't care, the US doesn't care and Europe is in a difficult position because anti-semite violence coming from Muslims is actually a problem that could quickly get out of control if European nations were to embolden the anti Israel sentiment. (Because just like some zionists like to equate Israel with Judaism to consider all criticism of Israel "antisemitism" many non-jews also equate jews with Israel and would have no issue taking revenge on Israel by assaulting jews)
The end result will be half assed condemnations here and there.

 

[Generals]

Wow, I guess China's not doing a genocide after all.



97% of the drinking water in Gaza is unfit for human consumption because of the Israeli blockade. Israel rigorously limits the amount of food that can be imported into Gaza such that the bare minimum to avoid malnutrition is all that is let in. However, there are regular power outages at Israeli whim that cause food to spoil. If that isn't a famine, it may as well be one.



Have you heard of this thing called public relations? They'd like to continue what they are doing, so when they destroy highrise residential buildings they've adopted the tactic of telling the people whose homes they are destroying to get out so that rubes will have a flimsy excuse ready for Israel destroying A HIGHRISE RESIDENTIAL BUILDING.



Bullshit. The progress from the beginning of the Nakba to now conveys a ruthless efficiency. Right now they are ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem neighborhood by neighborhood.

"Israel is committing a genocide by allowing sufficient food to come in to avoid malnutrition and too little electricity for power to run 24/7". Worst genocide ever...
Famine is exactly when you don't have enough food to avoid malnutrition.
And landgrab =/= genocide. It's immoral and criminal but not a genocide. I don't understand this desire to dumb down the debate on the Israeli conflict with absurd claims. You can be against Israel's policies and in favor of the Palestinian cause without resorting to the abuse of extremely loaded terms which you are trivialising in the process.

 

[Seanchaidh]

"Israel is committing a genocide by allowing sufficient food to come in to avoid malnutrition and too little electricity for power to run 24/7". Worst genocide ever...
Famine is exactly when you don't have enough food to avoid malnutrition.
And landgrab =/= genocide. It's immoral and criminal but not a genocide. I don't understand this desire to dumb down the debate on the Israeli conflict with absurd claims. You can be against Israel's policies and in favor of the Palestinian cause without resorting to the abuse of extremely loaded terms which you are trivialising in the process.

There is nothing absurd about describing what Israel is doing to Palestine as genocide. The most serious claims about Xinjiang pale in comparison to what Israel is doing to Palestinians.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Agema]

"Israel is committing a genocide by allowing sufficient food to come in to avoid malnutrition and too little electricity for power to run 24/7". Worst genocide ever...
Famine is exactly when you don't have enough food to avoid malnutrition.
And landgrab =/= genocide. It's immoral and criminal but not a genocide. I don't understand this desire to dumb down the debate on the Israeli conflict with absurd claims. You can be against Israel's policies and in favor of the Palestinian cause without resorting to the abuse of extremely loaded terms which you are trivialising in the process.

Okay, so what is going on? What we know full well is that Israel cannot accept the Palestinians as citizens of Israel. It would fundamentally undermine the Jewish character of the state. So the Palestinian territories cannot be brought into the Israeli body politic, and must be kept as a vassal state.

If we look at the bigger picture of what Israel is doing, it's destroying the viability of a Palestinian state. Gaza is a hellhole with essentially nothing. In the West Bank, Israel is slowly but methodically stripping it of anything worthwhile - natural resources, water, farmland, etc. - and giving it to Israeli settlers. Palestinians are being cleared bit by bit from East Jerusalem. The Palestinian territories in time are going to be a dozen Gazas: slum cities in places like Hebron and Nablus where they are packed in and controlled, utterly dependent on and at the mercy of Israel.

Eventually, individual Palestinians will need to therefore make a choice: remain in their destitute, urban, concentration camps, or emigrate (to other Arab countries) if they want to thrive. Israel has been actively encouraging this for years already. Depopulate the Palestinians by making their lives so wretched and hopeless that they leave on their own: which conveniently allows the Israel the fig leaf cover that they were not driven out. Eventually, should the demographics move far enough that they can absorbed whilst maintaining a large Jewish majority, even these Palestinian cities can be annexed.

This is an accepted definition of genocide: the destruction of a nation or ethnic group. The Palestinians are not being killed en masse as individuals, but as a distinct people they are being slowly and steadily destroyed.

 

[Generals]

It is almost as if there's this thing called "optics" and "public relations" that Israel has to care about. If Israel went all in and just nuked the Gaza Strip what do you think happens then? That the US, UN, EU and all the other major powers just sit quiet, smile and go "good on you for being pro-active"? Or would it cause Israel to become an international pariah the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Nazis and would functionally be the nation state equivalent of a murder-suicide? Without US support and with potential US hostility how long do you think Israel would last when Egypt, Lebanon, Jordania, Iran and Syria smells their chance for another attempt at the war of 1948? This time with the Arabs being the good guys out to stop a genocidal regime and potentially with significant backing from major powers like Russia and China who are sensing an opportunity to totally alter the power balance in the Middle East in their favor and away from the US?

The genocide on Palestinians might be slow, but it is real. Israel is making sure that the Palestinians can't form a stable society by denying access to and from the occupied territories and Gaza strip, denying the import of vital goods like medicine and by slowly encroaching on the most habitable areas of the West Bank and taking away absolutely essential things like drinking water and arable lands. For all points and purposes the Gaza Strip today is a modern day ghetto meant to slowly eradicate the Palestinians by making sure they are unable to eke out a sustainable living. In this context the disproportionate military violence and systemic military and police repression of Palestinians is almost a footnote.

This is an accepted definition of genocide: the destruction of a nation or ethnic group. The Palestinians are not being killed en masse as individuals, but as a distinct people they are being slowly and steadily destroyed.

There has never been a Palestinian nation to speak of so there is no nation to actually destroy here. And the ethnic group has actually been growing despite Israel's alleged genocidal policies. And Israel's current policy has been going on for what? one or two decades?

Israel clearly wants to annex valuable land, they clearly want to ensure said annexed land holds pro-israel inhabitants in a sufficient proportion to ensure stability. And this comes with extremely immoral policies of expropriation of Palestinians to replace a big part of them with Jewish settlers. And that's wrong on many levels. But they are not trying to eliminate any ethnic group.

For christ's sake, the Muslim population in Israel has had higher natality rates and lower death rates than the Jewish for years despite Israel's policy being exactly the same as now. How any of you can somehow consider this logical under alleged "genocidal" circumstances is beyond me.

 

[Seanchaidh]

There has never been a Palestinian nation to speak of so there is no nation to actually destroy here.

oh ffs

Even if we accept this hasbara as per se true with respect to Palestine prior to 1948, Israel created a Palestinian nation when they started the Nakba. That experience of dispossession and oppression is a shared cultural and historical circumstance easily EASILY strong enough to define a nation. It's a fuck of a lot more uniting than anything the United States has going for it, for example.

 

[Agema]

There has never been a Palestinian nation to speak of so there is no nation to actually destroy here.

Sure. Then one can say there was no German or Italian nation in 1850. "German" and "Italian" up to that point were fabrications with no basis in reality. But that's not really true, is it?

Nation:

"a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory"
- or -
"a community of people formed on the basis of a common language, history, ethnicity, or a common culture, and, in many cases, a shared territory. A nation is more overtly political than an ethnic group"

And hence why nationalism is:

"an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state"

 

[Buyetyen]

There has never been a Palestinian nation to speak of so there is no nation to actually destroy here.

Your excuses for genocide are getting really half-assed.

 

[Silvanus]

B) Allowing countries like Qatar to fund Gaza so it doesn't collapse into Famine?

Uhrm, because Qatar is a sovereign country and its decisions on aid do not require the permission of Israel.

 

[stroopwafel]

Okay, so what is going on? What we know full well is that Israel cannot accept the Palestinians as citizens of Israel. It would fundamentally undermine the Jewish character of the state. So the Palestinian territories cannot be brought into the Israeli body politic, and must be kept as a vassal state.

If we look at the bigger picture of what Israel is doing, it's destroying the viability of a Palestinian state. Gaza is a hellhole with essentially nothing. In the West Bank, Israel is slowly but methodically stripping it of anything worthwhile - natural resources, water, farmland, etc. - and giving it to Israeli settlers. Palestinians are being cleared bit by bit from East Jerusalem. The Palestinian territories in time are going to be a dozen Gazas: slum cities in places like Hebron and Nablus where they are packed in and controlled, utterly dependent on and at the mercy of Israel.

Eventually, individual Palestinians will need to therefore make a choice: remain in their destitute, urban, concentration camps, or emigrate (to other Arab countries) if they want to thrive. Israel has been actively encouraging this for years already. Depopulate the Palestinians by making their lives so wretched and hopeless that they leave on their own: which conveniently allows the Israel the fig leaf cover that they were not driven out. Eventually, should the demographics move far enough that they can absorbed whilst maintaining a large Jewish majority, even these Palestinian cities can be annexed.

This is an accepted definition of genocide: the destruction of a nation or ethnic group. The Palestinians are not being killed en masse as individuals, but as a distinct people they are being slowly and steadily destroyed.

At this point it's pretty much impossible for Israel to make a trade-off for occupied land in Gaza, Westbank, the status of Jerusalem and the refugee problem that would be acceptable to Palestinians. What 'should be' and what is actual reality lies so far apart that the window of opportunity for a two state solution has closed. I see it only deteriorating further from here with increasingly violent incursions, terrorist attacks, Jewish/Arab unrest in Israel itself and the Palestinian government corrupted as it becomes even more the donor state of Arab regimes that want to destroy Israel and have an active interest in perpetuating the conflict.

I think the last opportunity for any kind of peaceful co-existence went out the window when the Ayalon-Nusseibeh plan fell through. It's a shame too though, as I think ultimately the dealbreaker was Jerusalem. People with orthodox religions just can't make concessions and without concessions you can't have peace.

The Ayalon-Nusseibeh Plan - The “People's Choice”

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Revnak]

"Israel is committing a genocide by allowing sufficient food to come in to avoid malnutrition and too little electricity for power to run 24/7". Worst genocide ever...
Famine is exactly when you don't have enough food to avoid malnutrition.
And landgrab =/= genocide. It's immoral and criminal but not a genocide. I don't understand this desire to dumb down the debate on the Israeli conflict with absurd claims. You can be against Israel's policies and in favor of the Palestinian cause without resorting to the abuse of extremely loaded terms which you are trivialising in the process.

And there was a gym at Auschwitz.

 

[Mister Mumbler]

So, can someone smarter than me explain to me why Jerusalem isn't an international city like the Vatican (IE, a three state solution)?

 

[dreng3]

So, can someone smarter than me explain to me why Jerusalem isn't an international city like the Vatican (IE, a three state solution)?

Because the region was granted to a certain ethno-religious group and any attempt to decrease their influence would be decried as anti-semitic, regardless of facts.

Ideally the entire region should be managed by someone with less skin in the game, but the leadership on both sides are content with racking up bodycounts and letting citizens suffer, as long as the ones in power stay in power.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Respect to this guy

 

[Agema]

At this point it's pretty much impossible for Israel to make a trade-off for occupied land in Gaza, Westbank, the status of Jerusalem and the refugee problem that would be acceptable to Palestinians.

Israel doesn't want a "trade-off". It wants domination over all of the land west of the River Jordan.

The failure of the Oslo accords and subsequent intifada was perhaps a seminal moment, in that it drove Israelis to incerasingly believe peace could not be achieved, and the only thing left to do was militarily control and crush the Palestinians into the dirt. The manifestation of this is the ever-ongoing prime ministership of Netanyahu, coupled with the ever-increasing strength of hardline religious and Zionist / pro-settler groups.

That might not go on forever. But what would stop it? Israel's all but "won" already. All the time it claims more and more (land, political acceptance, etc.), none of which ever gets rolled back, and less and less of which it would have to get back in a peace settlement. Israel has a clear and viable path forwards to take everything it wants: carry on doing what it's doing. It may take another century or two, but it will get there.

What could motivate it back to a negotiating table? Two things: either the Palestinians agree to give Israel de facto control of everything that really matters (the river Jordan, border control, its foreign policy, etc. to become a few splodges of vassal state in the middle of an Israeli state), or a major player like the USA or EU sanctions the shit out of Israel to drive it to the negotiating table and offer major concessions. And we all know the latter won't happen.

You take the latest stuff. We've been through this how many times? Israel bombs and invades Palestinian territory, kills dozens-hundreds of Palestinians, everyone in the international community tuts for a few weeks, there may be a UN resolution the US vetoes if it's anything other than totally toothless, and Israel goes back to doing what it wants with precisely zero significant repercussions. And maybe it'll bomb Lebanon, Syria and anything else it pleases for lols too, with equally zero repercussions.

 

[Seanchaidh]

gotta make sure the lynch mobs are organized

 

[Generals]

Your excuses for genocide are getting really half-assed.

Nah mate, the far left absurdity is just reaching new highs on this forum. This thread has become even more stupid than the one about the election being stolen.
Genocide... The topic can't get any more ridiculous than that.

 

[Buyetyen]

Nah mate, the far left absurdity is just reaching new highs on this forum. This thread has become even more stupid than the one about the election being stolen.
Genocide... The topic can't get any more ridiculous than that.

The appeal to ridicule works better if you can actually explain what makes something funny. Unfortunately, it's been proven that if you want to be funny, conservatism is a handicap.