Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

BrawlMan

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Seanchaidh

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A third possibility: Israel declined to receive the hostages, so Hamas elected to free them without the involvement of the Israeli government-- via the Red Crescent iirc. Why you didn't think of this possibility is anyone's guess.
(They did this at the Rafah border crossing-- the one that goes to Egypt)
 

Ag3ma

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Not surprising.
I find it a little frustrating that people would go ballistic if the not unreasonable comparison of "lebensraum" were made.

The Jews were the victims of one of the 20th century's worst atrocities. I fail to see why that should give Israel almost unlimited freedom to commit its own atrocities without due criticism and without comparison to relevant historical precedents. I can't help but feel that the long-term result of Israel's behaviour and increasingly hysterical rhetoric, through Israel's association with Jews, will be to thoroughly pollute the memory of the Holocaust and squander much of the goodwill Jews are offered because of it.
 

tstorm823

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A third possibility: Israel declined to receive the hostages, so Hamas elected to free them without the involvement of the Israeli government-- via the Red Crescent iirc. Why you didn't think of this possibility is anyone's guess.
That's not a third possibility. That's the second possibility I listed. This being a video filmed after means it isn't evidence for the original claim. By describing that video as "the mendacious propaganda", you imply that video is what was being referred to by Israel as propaganda, but this video didn't exist when they made that statement.

The claim that Hamas offered these prisoners to Israel and were rebuked remains supported by only statements from Hamas themselves. There has been no corroboration by any third party, nor any recorded evidence of the exchange, which would be pretty trivial to have, it would be rather silly to communicate a prisoner transfer with an opposing military and not record anything. Trying to use video made after as evidence of what happened before makes you look rather silly.
 

Seanchaidh

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I find it a little frustrating that people would go ballistic if the not unreasonable comparison of "lebensraum" were made.

The Jews were the victims of one of the 20th century's worst atrocities. I fail to see why that should give Israel almost unlimited freedom to commit its own atrocities without due criticism and without comparison to relevant historical precedents. I can't help but feel that the long-term result of Israel's behaviour and increasingly hysterical rhetoric, through Israel's association with Jews, will be to thoroughly pollute the memory of the Holocaust and squander much of the goodwill Jews are offered because of it.
maybe, though I think most people (that care enough to have an opinion on the matter) understand that Zionism is distinct from Judaism.
 

Seanchaidh

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That's not a third possibility. That's the second possibility I listed. This being a video filmed after means it isn't evidence for the original claim.
I've seen some tedious pedantry on this forum, but this is weapons-grade.
 
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BrawlMan

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I find it a little frustrating that people would go ballistic if the not unreasonable comparison of "lebensraum" were made.

The Jews were the victims of one of the 20th century's worst atrocities. I fail to see why that should give Israel almost unlimited freedom to commit its own atrocities without due criticism and without comparison to relevant historical precedents. I can't help but feel that the long-term result of Israel's behaviour and increasingly hysterical rhetoric, through Israel's association with Jews, will be to thoroughly pollute the memory of the Holocaust and squander much of the goodwill Jews are offered because of it.
Right now all I've seen is another Holocaust and Hitler's ideals and memes with a different face.




Israel has killed over 2000 children since October 7, maybe focus on that.
Ignore him. He's a lost cause that sucks the dicks and clits of abusers in power. So long as he is not the one getting his ass kicked, but he'll be sure as happy to take it in the ass, so long as it keeps him alive, and others he doesn't care about get hurt and killed.
 
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Ag3ma

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Israel has killed over 2000 children since October 7, maybe focus on that.
I read Amy Schumer and her Hollywood chums saying that the single most important thing is recovering those ~200 hostages.

Personally, I'd put stopping ~500 Palestinians dying every day ahead of that, although ideally the two would not be mutually exclusive. I'm also fucked off reading about how if we're not tunnel visioning on Hamas's despicable, bloody murder and desecration then we hate Jews. From people who have remained silent, blathered meaningless platitudes or even supported decades of Palestinian dispossession and hundreds of annual deaths at the hands of the IDF and Jewish settlers. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: let's throw back that maybe they just hate Arabs.
 

Seanchaidh

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Taking that at face value, it is terrible, but things like that are also somewhat inevitable when there is an occupying force making life hell for refugees it has concentrated in a big camp for decades. Like a riot, this too is the language of the unheard. If there are no 'legitimate' means of addressing an injustice, and the injustice is serious enough, and especially if those who have been treated unjustly have little power at their disposal, then injustices tend to be perpetrated in response. Palestinians in Gaza have been denied peaceful means of change; the Great March of Return was met with bullets. Because the world, when Palestinians are merely dying and not killing, seem to forget that Palestinians exist, or at least don't seem to care very much about their suffering, there is a powerful incentive for them to do something that might shock the conscience. They want attention: as they should, given that they are the party that has obviously been wronged. That attention has so far not been enough should shake anyone's faith in humanity.

The admonition not to negotiate with terrorists makes logical sense to discourage terrorism, but only under this condition: that those who are wronged but do not employ terrorism have peaceful means to effect change. If you're not negotiating at all, then it is of little consequence that you're not negotiating with terrorists. Israel has given Palestinians a choice between dying quietly and trying violence. It is arrogant to judge the decisions of those that are faced with such a choice without having faced it yourself; if you give people nothing but injury when they choose non-violence, then you may as well be choosing violence for them-- it is a duty of onlookers to recognize when this is the case.

The elephant in the room, of course, is that Israel is inflicting its own terrorism on the Gaza strip. And also the West Bank. It has intensified since Oct 7. Israel's atrocities dwarf the atrocities inflicted by Hamas. If Hamas follows the admonition never to negotiate with terrorists, then it would have to see Israel utterly defeated before stopping its own violence. Obviously, this way lies a bloodbath. And given that Israel has all (or nearly all) the power in this situation, the results are its fault.