Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Ag3ma

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I note a bunch of people who speak Hebrew are delivering boxes to people who speak Arabic with "MEDICAL SUPPLIES" written in huge letters in English. Well, at least that doesn't stink of propaganda.

Then they're coming out of the hospital with all their alleged findings of terrorist activities, conveniently unverified by any independent agency. And I just can't help but think "Iraqi WMDs".
 

Seanchaidh

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"We found a few AKs and a computer with dodgy content".

Even if they were genuinely found there (and no-one can reasonably trust the Israeli authorities and armed forces to be completely honest), does that sound like a major operational command centre to anyone?
To be fair, we are also meant to believe that Hamas had the time and resources to move cement and ceramic building materials into the hospital while under daily bombardment by Israel and then use those to hide all the various connections to the Skaven Undercity Hamas tunnels purported to be under the complex.
 

XsjadoBlaydette

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been wondering a lot how we as a collective species can deal with a news media and political class that refuses to acknowledge basic history, even recent history to contextualise what they're reporting on. It's this endless annoying act of presenting no fucking object permanence with nary a hint of wanting to change or improve that we're all supposed to play along with as if we're totally fucking brain dead. Sick and fcking tired of these psychotic colonial bullshit games, mass public gaslighting to defend ongoing genocide while pretending to be dementia-riddled idiot kunts, tear the whole fucking lot down is rotten to and from the core
 
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Casual Shinji

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It just occured to me, even if you're pro-Israel, even if you believe Hamas is using human shields, even if you believe the life of a palastinian is worth less than that of an israeli... 11.000 dead civilians and the IDF still hasn't defeated Hamas would mean that Israel has the most incompetent fucking army on the planet (or they just don't give a flying fuck, which they don't, but for sake of argument).
 

Eacaraxe

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It just occured to me, even if you're pro-Israel, even if you believe Hamas is using human shields, even if you believe the life of a palastinian is worth less than that of an israeli... 11.000 dead civilians and the IDF still hasn't defeated Hamas would mean that Israel has the most incompetent fucking army on the planet (or they just don't give a flying fuck, which they don't, but for sake of argument).
The entire goal of a "forever war" mentality is to never defeat one's enemies once and for all, but rather allow ample time for retreat, regroup, reinforce, and rearm to justify the next conflict. Hell Israel created hamas for this very reason, and it's the how and why for Israel bombing everything but Hamas, but still claiming they're bombing hamas.

The only thing that's changed now, is Israel thinks it has amply manufactured consent for outright genocide.
 
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Gergar12

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To get a glimpse of why the baby boomers support Israel so one-sidedly, you have to know what their parents did. During the 1948 war people were still in shock of the Holocaust so the then-holocaust survivors decided they wanted their whole country. So they had two choices one was to go to America which was the most powerful country at that time, and the one credited with ending the war economically with the more autocratic soviets in terms of manpower. The other was to settle in then-British Palestine. Some of them went to the US, and many went to settle in then-British Palestine. When they did so they 'won against the Arabs' as my holocaust history teacher mentioned in a post-holocaust passage in grade school(nothing was mentioned about how this would create new problems or that 'winning against the Arabs' meant the Nakba and meant ethnic cleansing many of the Palestinians out of the area. It mentioned B-17s hitting Cairo as an implied way to compare doing so to the Germans who were also 'bad people'. This gives you a sense the the one-sidedness of American propaganda in a 2010s rich middle-class school in Delaware Ohio.

During the Cold War, the baby boomers ' generation would support Israel due to said holocaust, but the leaders of the US at the time were cold, ruthless people. JFK, and RFK(senior), supported Israel but were mildly progressive. Your LBJs were that ruthless towards the outside world due to the Cold War given Vietnam, and the horrors there.

Once JFK, LBJ, and the then-Soviet leader Khrushchev died left power, the ruthlessness began for both sides in the Cold War. I agree that Israel was right to preemptively attack Egyptian forces for building up an army alone in the SInal to attack Israel, but again this was based on anger at Israel for helping colonial powers France, and the British invade the Suez Canal. So basically one thing leads to another. Nixon was different. He was the most ruthless man to ever be president of the US, he was Trump if Trump was even more ruthless. He let Egypt, and Syria attack first in the Yom Kippur War leading to scores of Israeli losses in their military from Soviet anti-tank missiles, which Israel with US-supplied arms eventually pushed back, and Israel surrounded the third army in Egypt, and Israel would get more losses trying to invade deeper into Egpyt. Then Nixon presided over a ceasefire, and later Egypt and Jordan would recognize Israel much to the shock of the Arab world at that time.

So why was Nixon ruthless, and why is Biden trying to avoid his mistakes? Nixon had the right results in mind(peace, and forcing the region against the Soviets), but he had the wrong methods. So Biden is trying to deter another six-day war from Israel, and another Yom Kippur War from now Turkey, and Iran. The last time Nixon almost forced the Israels to nuke Cairo given they had nukes during the Kom Kippor war. Granted a lot of this stems from British colonization, and European anti-Semitism as well as American indifference to the needs of the arab world vs their European allies.

Hopefully, the next generation's US president will likely be a Gen X president who will do better but given how Gen X is mirroring the baby boomers more than 2000-era kids or Gen Z. I have little doubt this won't end until Gen Z gets a US president given my generation the 2000's era people or millennials still have that baby boomer propaganda in them.
 

Ag3ma

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To get a glimpse of why the baby boomers support Israel so one-sidedly, you have to know what their parents did.
A lot of that support is due to the fact that back in 1948-1971, Israel was credibly the much weaker side, and defeat could have ended in a second genocide of the Jews. Boomers will have made that connection in their youth, and find it hard to break even though in the successive years Israel became one of the most powerful forces in the region.
 
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Eacaraxe

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and defeat could have ended in a second genocide of the Jews.
I'm gonna want a citation on that which doesn't come straight from Zionist propaganda, please and thank you. Unless, of course, you didn't intend to surreptitiously sneak that into your post expecting no one to notice and for it to go unchallenged, and really just meant "this is what boomers were told growing up by propagandists".
 

Ag3ma

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I'm gonna want a citation on that which doesn't come straight from Zionist propaganda, please and thank you. Unless, of course, you didn't intend to surreptitiously sneak that into your post expecting no one to notice and for it to go unchallenged, and really just meant "this is what boomers were told growing up by propagandists".
Dude, this is a hypothetical. We cannot know what would have happened had the Arabs won the 1948 war.

As far as I am aware, no Arab leader called for mass slaughter / expulsion of Jews, but what people advocate and whaat actually happens are two different things. If we assume an Arab victory in 1948 ended with a unitary Palestinian state or annexation by Jordan / Egypt / etc., it is very unlikely that the Arabs would be kindly disposed to the Jews or that the Jews there would give up their dreams of their own state. This would be a recipe for ongoing conflict, potentially for decades. As we can see now, conflict can bring escalation.

Secondly, outside whether extermination / expulsion of the Palestinian Jews would occur, Western boomers' perception of its possibility is perhaps more important than the actual possibility when we're talking about the attitudes of Western boomers.
 

Eacaraxe

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Dude, this is a hypothetical. We cannot know what would have happened had the Arabs won the 1948 war...Western boomers' perception of its possibility is perhaps more important than the actual possibility when we're talking about the attitudes of Western boomers.
Yeah, that's my point. Jews managed to live in the middle east just fine for two thousand years, perhaps not under ideal conditions but certainly better than the Jewish diaspora in Europe; arguably the worst it got for them was under the Mongol Empire, and that wasn't even antisemitic but rather persecution of all Abrahamic religions. There's absolutely no basis for a belief that had Israel lost any of its major wars -- '48, '67, or '73 -- there would have been a second Holocaust.

Incarceration or forced deportation of American and European Zionists for being, you know, violent criminal religious and political extremists? honestly, yeah, probably. But, bringing justice to violent religious extremists is a far cry from persecution, regardless what they claim or whatever religion or ideology they believe. I certainly wouldn't call it antisemitism for Israel's current leadership to somehow be rendered to the Hague for trial.

That's not unique to Judaism and its extremist elements. Christofascists in the US, and radical Islamists, should suffer the same fate.

To what this all boils down, is decades of intense and pervasive pro-Israel propaganda normalizing Zionism and Jewish right-wing extremism, under the auspices of calling any forthcoming criticism antisemitism. Boomers just happen to be the most credulous generation in American history, and uniquely susceptible to this brand of propaganda.
 

tstorm823

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Yeah, that's my point. Jews managed to live in the middle east just fine for two thousand years, perhaps not under ideal conditions but certainly better than the Jewish diaspora in Europe.
This seems hugely historically ignorant. By the time of the Ottoman Empire, there were only like 5000 Jewish people in the region. Do you think it was just a small but reasonably stable community, or do you think it's after being slaughtered and exiled by at minimum 5 conquering empires over multiple millennia? Why do you think the European Jewish diaspora exists?