Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Eacaraxe

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Do you believe that October 7th represents no particular milestone or meaningful event? That the state of conflict on October 7th was the same as it was on October 6th?
Not really. Anyone who's paid attention to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict during their lives, or knows the history of it since the First Intifada, knows this is pretty much par for the course. Rocket attacks, raids, and kidnapping have been Hamas' modus operandi since their founding. There are only three real differences here; the first is the scale which has clearly broken Israeli senses of invulnerability and impunity, and the second is Israelis' going mask-off in the public eye about genocidal intent.

The third, less important but still noteworthy, is the apparent lack of suicide attacks during the current cycle of hostilities. Which, in and of itself speaks greatly towards internal shifts in Hamas' strategic logic versus how it might best achieve its goals. But such nuances are certainly lost on parties who clearly cannot tell the difference between descriptive and normative statements, and personal judgments, without injecting their own partisan beliefs or dishonestly misconstruing anything someone with a marginally-different opinion might say.

Assuming they're astute enough to have noticed that in the first place. Y'all did notice that in their first major offensive in over a decade, the one thing Hamas hasn't done is execute suicide bombings? Right?

Likewise, Israel employs the same tactics today as it has since the Second Intifada. Blockade, indiscriminate bombing followed by indiscriminate mechanized infantry incursions into Palestinian territory. These tactics date back at least to Operation Defensive Shield and the Battle of Jenin, and brought to fruition in 2006 and 2008 with Operations Summer Rains and Cast Lead respectively.

Yet we have people here insisting the latter constitutes a grotesque one-sided escalation by the occupied party, which justifies the occupying force launching a massive retaliatory invasion... and simultaneously arguing that the former doesn't constitute escalation at all, and responsibility for the retaliation rests on the occupier.
Funny how you keep using these words to draw nebulous insinuations, without ever actually defining them or stating who represents which party...and expecting us to just accept the parallels and premises you'd like.

The mercenary nature of your support is unfortunately relevant, because it ultimately harms the cause. What's needed is principled opposition to invasion/occupation/genocide rather than muckracking dependent on whether one of the sides likes the US or not.
The poster who's trying to derail a thread about a genocide to push forum vendettas, wants to lecture others about principles. I'd expect nothing less from the same party proudly flying that Blairite flag any and every time the name "Jeremy Corbyn" comes up. One wonders indeed how and what that seems to be the case, and any potential relevance here...
 
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Silvanus

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Not really. Anyone who's paid attention to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict during their lives, or knows the history of it since the First Intifada, knows this is pretty much par for the course.
OK. Yet at the same time, you want us to consider actions that are far, far less extensive to be unacceptable escalations, that justify and invite total war in retaliation.

Funny how you keep using these words to draw nebulous insinuations, without ever actually defining them or stating who represents which party...and expecting us to just accept the parallels and premises you'd like.
I've spelled out exactly where the parallels lie. The government of an occupied party (Palestine and Ukraine) attacked an occupying force (Israel and Russia). In both instances the state of conflict pre-existed. In both instances civilians and civilian infrastructure was targeted, though far more in Hamas' attack.

The response in one case has been to rightly point out that this does not justify overwhelming, genocidal retaliation from the occupier. The response in the other case has been to clutch pearls about the occupied party "escalating" and then insist they're now to blame for what the invader does to the civilian population in retaliation. Complete hypocritical inconsistency of principle.

The poster who's trying to derail a thread about a genocide to push forum vendettas
That's rich, considering the hyper-aggression you routinely employ in the pursuit of "forum vendettas".

Be consistent and these things won't get brought up. But you can't just expect glaring hypocrisies to be overlooked.
 

Eacaraxe

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OK. Yet at the same time, you want us to consider actions that are far, far less extensive to be unacceptable escalations...
Oh, we'll get to that.

I've spelled out exactly where the parallels lie. The government of an occupied party (Palestine and Ukraine) attacked an occupying force (Israel and Russia). In both instances the state of conflict pre-existed. In both instances civilians and civilian infrastructure was targeted, though far more in Hamas' attack.
And there we go, those hidden premises I keep talking about and weaseling away the pre-existing conflict other than to say it existed, as if the nature of that pre-existing conflict simply doesn't matter. I won't allow you to derail this, but if you're so willfully ignorant you're unable to tell the difference between "non-state actors engaged in violent resistance against a state actor" from "state actors bullbaiting a regional conflict by turning a blind eye to terrorist paramilitaries' violent criminal acts on their own sovereign territory", that's on you.

The response in one case has been to rightly point out that this does not justify overwhelming, genocidal retaliation from the occupier. The response in the other case has been to clutch pearls about the occupied party "escalating" and then insist they're now to blame for what the invader does to the civilian population in retaliation. Complete hypocritical inconsistency of principle.
And here's that complete, dishonest, partisan-driven incapacity to tell the difference between descriptive and normative statements, or judgment statements.

No kidding, if and when Hamas pulled some shit Israel would opt to enact genocide. The writing's been on the wall for twenty years. Hamas got exactly what it wanted. That was a "descriptive" statement. Because that was exactly Hamas' intent: they're playing, as they always have, the bigger game and giving Israel the rope it, as a country, needs to hang itself once and for all in the global court of public opinion. There's no better time for it, because you once again miss the bigger picture: Israel has a rogue, neo-fascist, government in power trying to enabling act itself despite historic protest, and a crazed Napoleon wannabe clown of a Prime Minister doing everything in his power short of an outright coup d'etat to stay out of prison where he belongs.

Same thing as "no kidding, when Ukraine ignored neo-fascist paramilitaries attacking Russian nationals, Russia would eventually retaliate" and "no kidding, when Ukraine shifted to a total war footing to defend neo-fascist paramilitaries, so would Russia": those are also "descriptive" statements.

Of course, you know the difference. You're just not honest or non-partisan enough to admit it.

That's rich, considering the hyper-aggression you routinely employ in the pursuit of "forum vendettas".
If calling people out for brazen dishonesty, partisanship, and more importantly being flat-out wrong, and bringing sources to call that out, are "hyper-aggression", then I'm damned proud to be the most "hyper-aggressive" sumbitch on this forum. Strange how that never seemed to be a problem for my entire history posting on Escapist forums, old or new, so long as I was -- and still do, on certain topics -- going after conservative posters.

But I leave forum posts relevant to topics at hand. It ain't my problem if you don't like context or history that disagrees with you.

Are you done trying to derail?
 
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Eacaraxe

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You know what I love doing? I love reminding people Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Israeli for signing the Oslo Accords, who was radicalized and armed by "rogue" Israeli cops...who just happened to be virulently pro-Netanyahu.

Know what else I love doing? I love reminding people that "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is explicitly part of the IHRA's Working Definition of Antisemitism. So is "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

So, you know, any forthcoming criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestinians and Palestine, is to be considered prima facie evidence of antisemitism. So is citing Israel's own statutory law as passed by the Knesset, signed, and held as constitutional by the Supreme Court of Israel. Yet, people wonder how and why Israel's critics accuse the Israeli government, its representatives, and its supporters of weaponizing antisemitism allegations to defend Israeli policy.

Despite the irony in that treating Israel, Judaism, or Jewish people as monolithic or interchangeable is also antisemitism.
 
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Silvanus

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And there we go, those hidden premises I keep talking about and weaseling away the pre-existing conflict other than to say it existed, as if the nature of that pre-existing conflict simply doesn't matter. I won't allow you to derail this, but if you're so willfully ignorant you're unable to tell the difference between "non-state actors engaged in violent resistance against a state actor" from "state actors bullbaiting a regional conflict by turning a blind eye to terrorist paramilitaries' violent criminal acts on their own sovereign territory", that's on you.
Not sure how premises I directly stated upfront count as "hidden", but that's by-the-by.

Most of this distinction is just regurgitation of descriptors from propaganda. We could do the exact same thing with Hamas; it's much like what Netanyahu and Hecht already do. In fact, that latter sentence needs only minimal change to mirror war propaganda we've already seen from Likud. The only substantial distinction there is state actors vs non-state actors, as if state actors are somehow less justified in fighting an occupying invader.

And here is a big part of why this is relevant: we identify and dismantle the falsehoods and demonisation propaganda that the Likud and IDF spokespeople come out with to justify occupation and genocide. In order to do that with an ounce of credibility, the speaker needs to be consistent and sceptical, not just depending wholly on whether they like the US or not.

And here's that complete, dishonest, partisan-driven incapacity to tell the difference between descriptive and normative statements, or judgment statements.

No kidding, if and when Hamas pulled some shit Israel would opt to enact genocide. The writing's been on the wall for twenty years. Hamas got exactly what it wanted. That was a "descriptive" statement. Because that was exactly Hamas' intent: they're playing, as they always have, the bigger game and giving Israel the rope it, as a country, needs to hang itself once and for all in the global court of public opinion. There's no better time for it, because you once again miss the bigger picture: Israel has a rogue, neo-fascist, government in power trying to enabling act itself despite historic protest, and a crazed Napoleon wannabe clown of a Prime Minister doing everything in his power short of an outright coup d'etat to stay out of prison where he belongs.

Same thing as "no kidding, when Ukraine ignored neo-fascist paramilitaries attacking Russian nationals, Russia would eventually retaliate" and "no kidding, when Ukraine shifted to a total war footing to defend neo-fascist paramilitaries, so would Russia": those are also "descriptive" statements.

Of course, you know the difference. You're just not honest or non-partisan enough to admit it.
Hmm, except those descriptive statements were utilised in ways that were obviously connected to your judgements on the actors. And even the descriptive statements themselves are hardly just descriptive, being stuffed full of judgement language.
 
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Seanchaidh

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the aesthetic comparison Sam Knight raises is... interesting.

In order to do that with an ounce of credibility, the speaker needs to be consistent and sceptical
having the pretense of these doesn't seem to be helping you any.
 

Gergar12

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the aesthetic comparison Sam Knight raises is... interesting.



having the pretense of these doesn't seem to be helping you any.
I have a feeling the Israeli leadership doesn't watch AOT.

By the it's 'totally' not related in any way to the cycle of violence, prosecution, and etc.

Go watch it. It's a show about a kid and his two friends.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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hanselthecaretaker2

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The stinger -


@63saruman
9 days ago
I bet that the US population knows that Israel has universal healthcare (paid by the US) whereas their own country doesn't.



Pretty sure they meant *doesn't* know.
 
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