A translation error that was passed around and spread by people who are interested in the game. You are aware of how much this franchise exploded after the previous one right?RaikuFA said:
Controversial Fire Emblem: Fates Scene Dropped From Western Releases
- Thread starter Lizzy Finnegan
- Start date
Weirdly, I keep finding conflicting accounts. Almost like I'd have to cherry pick data to back up your claim.Paradoxrifts said:
Especially that latter part.Windknight said:
And this is a perfect example of people taking something completely out of context and spinning it for their own political gain. The final support conversation between Ike and Soren is about Soren revealing that he's a Branded, human-laguz cross-breeds that are regarded by most of Tellius about as well as Nazi Germany would regard a black Soviet jew. While the Laguz hate the humans and the humans hate the Laguz, BOTH of them hate the Branded. Which is why to Soren it's a big fucking deal that he got that off his chest after who knows how many years.MarsAtlas said:
There's absolutely no canonical evidence that Ike is gay. I play the Tellius games almost religiously, and I can assure you of that fact. If you want to try to use support conversations to prove your spin, I highly suggest you go back and read them again.
Windknight said:
Class-S is an outdated genre from the early 1900s, which was written by women for women. Of course, this stuff reflected the cultural attitudes of the authors at the time, as homosexuality became unacceptable as a result of westernization, whereas before it was tolerated and quite normal. You could say that Class-S is the precursor to the yuri genre in the 70s-90s, which also was originally targeted towards girls. The "grow out of it" or "move onto real relationship" part in Class-S really hasn't carried over.erttheking said:
Yuri is more male targeted these days, or at least male targeted yuri has become more mainstream, but I don't see any "disturbing trend" where the girls break up and date men. Of course some yuri does have Class-S elements, but really that genre has sailed away now. I don't find lovey-dovey and highly romanticized depictions that only go as far as making out as just platonic, and I doubt males want their shipping destroyed by some man. In things out of the yuri genre, I mean commonly there is this one girl that swoons and goes "I touched hands with Senpai!!" or a raging lesbian as a joke, but no, I don't see any crazy messages that you guys are trying to say.
My thoughts:
Sexist and homophobic? No.
Poorly written? Yes.
It obviously wasn't written to be sexist and homophobic, it was written by a culture with a different sense of humor and different norms and the like. Do I agree with slipping a magic potion in someone's drink? No, but it isn't as bad as people are saying.
To be honest, it should've been turned into something more like:
"Hey, Solei. I've got a potion that can help you!"
"Gimmie!" *chuggs potion*
"Wait, why are you and all the guys girls? YOU SAID THIS WOULD HELP, NOT TURN EVERY GUY INTO GIRLS!"
"YOU NEVER LET ME EXPLAIN THE POTION OR HOW IT WOULD HELP BEFORE YOU CHUGGED IT!"
*hilarity ensues*
There fixed it.
Sexist and homophobic? No.
Poorly written? Yes.
It obviously wasn't written to be sexist and homophobic, it was written by a culture with a different sense of humor and different norms and the like. Do I agree with slipping a magic potion in someone's drink? No, but it isn't as bad as people are saying.
To be honest, it should've been turned into something more like:
"Hey, Solei. I've got a potion that can help you!"
"Gimmie!" *chuggs potion*
"Wait, why are you and all the guys girls? YOU SAID THIS WOULD HELP, NOT TURN EVERY GUY INTO GIRLS!"
"YOU NEVER LET ME EXPLAIN THE POTION OR HOW IT WOULD HELP BEFORE YOU CHUGGED IT!"
*hilarity ensues*
There fixed it.
I didn't say anything about S-class, so I'm not sure why you quoted me. I'm not bringing up a genre, I'm bringing up real life expectations. And in Japan, lesbian relationships between young girls are not viewed as real relationships. They're just viewed as practice for "proper" relationships with men. And I'm seeing some uncomfortable parallels here.A Fork said:
Remember, everyone is heterosexual until they make out with someone of the same gender. And even then they're not necessarily gay.MarsAtlas said:
I think Mars is talking about the final conversation in Radiant Dawn, where they talk about how they first met, Soren essentially says Ike is his entire reason for being, and then Ike cradles Soren in his arms while he cries. Then they go off into the sunset together. That's all pretty fucking gay man.Spartan448 said:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FxGxCxSCZcE
I apologize, it's just that I thought you got that idea from the second page. Anyways I'm always going to defend anime, and I don't view Class−S relationships as a modern trope, but I know that to some degree of relationships similar to Class-S happen in real life.erttheking said:
Now, I know nothing about Fire Emblem, but isn't this one the one with homosexual relationships? Is it really saying something about Class-S relationships? I think we are jumping to conclusions. Soleil is bisexual. She falls in love with the female form of the MC, but says she also loves the male MC to some degree that is not specified. She probably loves both. I don't believe that Soleil is some kind of subversion of homosexuality, nor is it sending any message that homosexuality is not real love, considering the game has, or at least I hope, genuine lesbian relationships.
Oh, hai!LifeCharacter said:
I disagree with your subjective interpretation and opinion.
Bam. Refuted.
Pedantic?
Since you (intentionally?) missed Van's concession ("She may be bisexual at most.") in that first post? Yes, stiflingly so.
And for being someone with a Kuroko avatar, you seem surprisingly ignorant of animu tropes...not to mention the pleeeethora of yuri undertones, skinship, groping, etc. in a whole host of shows, VNs, and manga. All done between ostensibly straight characters, I might add.
It's. Common. Place.
Sincerely, there's a lotta grey over there when it comes to this subject. Cultural divide and all that stuff.
Sky-God help some of you folks if you ever watch something like Love Lab. With the level of black and white severity you lot seem to view this nonsense, you'd likely burst a damned blood vessel every time the throngs seemingly "lust" after Riko.
[small]Edit: Seriously though. Watch Love Lab. It's adorable.[/small]
Bingo. And that totally would have been better, imo.Xenon5032 said:
I think a lot of people wouldn't be throwing this big of a bitchfit if it weren't for that one element.
But, JESUS. You people are so fucking SERIOUS about this. Like it's not a video game or something. Like it's real life. Like this actually happened. Like these aren't characters! Like it's meant to be taken super srs! Like it's a manual on how to drug your friends with magical potions or something.
I mean. You've already WON. The game was altered and the scene was removed.
Congratulations on your victory, o' pious ones.
Maybe stop being so crappy about it?
can someone explain why they believe the game should not include the player character solving a problem in an "immoral" way?
I mean what is the motivation for saying "this fictional act this fictional character did/can do was wrong, and therefore it should not be in the english version of the game."?
I mean what is the motivation for saying "this fictional act this fictional character did/can do was wrong, and therefore it should not be in the english version of the game."?
When people don't like a thing, they tend to let the other people in charge of the thing know.mrbah said:
Basic customer service info. And now, people who don't like a thing are letting the other people in charge know.
In this case specifically, some people complained that one of the "good guys" drugged a "totally straight" character without their permission, and it's treated as a good thing all around. To them (and me) it has some majorly off-putting connotations and/or is bad writing for a number of reasons you can read this very thread about. The company listened and decided to take that scene out.
Now, people are complaining that the scene was taken out. Rinse and Repeat.
Because this is a Fire Emblem game, a series not known for its morally complicated protagonists save a couple of potential exceptions, and this game is definitely not one of them. From what I can tell, the player character in Fates is supposed to be a supremely morally upstanding individual. Drugging his own troops does not gel with that.mrbah said:
Difference being, a lot of the shit going on in grimms were not depicted as being positive, rather often being extremes on a spectrum. And the parts that were are still comfortably sitting centuries behind us in the time of writing them. This has been written within the decade and yet uses stuff that we look at as "well, it's completely unacceptable, but it has historic meaning and merit".Fdzzaigl said:
Equating the two isn't close to fair and I would be surprised if you didn't already know that.
To summerise, as often people do just choose to misinterpret others meanings, game released within the decade is not allowed to have the historical context defence of stories written centuries ago.
I already acknowledged that David Bowie's own understanding of his sexuality developed and changed over time. Now I think you're right in at least so far as that it is dreadfully important that everyone else acknowledge his last statements regarding his sexuality as the truth. However the fact that David Bowie went on to describe his early behaviour as that of a 'closeted heterosexual' does little to excuse the rest of us of the important moral obligation that we should generally believe others when they make claims regarding their own personal sexual orientation.MarsAtlas said:
I'm not even really claiming that the concept should be taken to the most ludicrous possible extreme. Just take people's word for it unless you have compelling evidence to believe the contrary. I do not think that it is a difficult distinction to grasp.
And I respect that. I will also respect a new claim should your circumstances change, without thinking any less of you.MarsAtlas said:
Whether you've come to a new realisation that you can no longer live a lie by continuing to conceal and suppress your sexual cravings for pheomelanin-endowed redheads, or your crippling existential fear of the oblivion has curdled your wits and made you believe in an omnipresent imaginary friend that sternly disapproves of the amount of eumelanin present in the hair of your sexual partners.
Heck, I will even respect your choice to fancy bald people. You monster.
This is no doubt going to infuriate you to no end, but I'm generally pretty chill with people choosing to make what I think are bad personal decisions for silly reasons. In the age of widespread internet adoption anyone who can read English enjoys the opportunity to properly educate and inform themselves on the topic of their own sexuality. Yet this tiny minority you've mentioned continues to either disregard or ignore all of that every single waking moment of their lives, in favour of seeking out alternatives such as pseudo-scientific therapy and sending positive thoughts to an invisible despot. I would say that you can't lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, but I'm fairly certain that the horse is offshore and completely submerged at this point. They're clearly seeking an irrational answer to an irrational problem. So commanding them to be well on the back of rational thought, reasoned arguments and scientific evidence is not really ever going to help them resolve the conflict between their sexuality and their religion.MarsAtlas said:
I would draw the line at when parents make their children attend conversion therapy. You can't keep adults from willfully choosing to harm themselves with bad ideas, but you can certainly protect their children from child abuse. On the whole I am generally quite skeptical of any ideologically motivated interference with childhood, simply because it takes a very long time for the results to completely manifest themselves.
That is pretty grim to be honest. I've always been told that the Japanese are a largely conformist people despite their hundreds of fascinatingly weird subcultures, but marrying someone just to keep up social appearances is a pathological display of internalised conformity. There is a sad but very interesting parallel between how this anonymous man was coerced by peer pressure and the presumed threat of social ostracisation to modify his own behaviour to not cause offense to his cultural surroundings and how Nintendo as a company has reacted by preemptively censoring the English version of their game to also avoid causing offense. Neither Nintendo or the man are ashamed of their actions. He campaigns for gay rights. Nintendo never altered the original Japanese version. Yet they're both willing to preemptively censor their own behaviour to avoid troubling others. Nintendo might not be going home at night to a sham marriage, yet the very fact that this level of oppression is even possible demonstrates the danger inherent in promoting a culture where conformity and self-censorship are championed as virtues over individual freedom of expression or choice.MarsAtlas said:
Now I can accept that within its native cultural context that the scene from this game can be interpreted as being part of a wider cultural suppression of sexual diversity in Japan. But any potential North American or European audience would experience it within their own native cultural context. Within such a native context and when held up to the light of scrutiny it is transformed rather anticlimactically to be a somewhat clumsily presented bad idea.
I'm not afraid of bad ideas. I'm far more afraid of the people who claim to want to protect me from bad ideas.
So...it's comparable to stockholm syndrome then? I mean that takes a long to to develop, but still results in someone falling in love with someone else in an incredibly sketchy manner?Ukomba said:
And this is the thing, if it's played up for laughs, you need to be careful with certain topics. I'm of the opinion that nothing should be off the table for comedy, but if you're going into risque topics, you need to be smart with your jokes. Simply it being a "joke" is as much of a defense as "it's just a prank, bro". They can be very funny and appropriate. Doesn't mean every attempt is, and I would say this is one that lacked the self awareness needed for it to work.