Controversial Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Series Comes to an End

[MonsterCrit]

Oh good, the scam artist is finally shutting up.

Wishful thinking.

 

[CaitSeith]

It's neat, because after 5 years of this shit, you can get a feel for, if not out right guess, what certain people are going to say about this subject just by seeing their avatar/user name.

Very few surprises here.

Come on, guys.

Why aren't you tired of this song and dance yet?

Let's be frank. You and I can be snarky about people being too attached to this stuff, but in a way we're contributing to the song and dance.

I would just like that the toxic people weren't the ones leading on the dance floor.

 

[CaitSeith]

snip

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Moral arbitrer? And what happened when she saw a game commiting a fault?

 

[CaitSeith]

a series trying to get video games banned or censored

Please show me anywhere within the youtube series that calls are made to ban or censor video games. Because you're taking 1+1 and getting 4000 here mate. If you want people to take your criticism seriously, don't dress them up in such ridiculous hyperbole.

I second this. That assertion is quite a jump of logic.

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

I didn't know people still watched this and/or cared. I didn't even know that Sarkeesian still existed. Learn something new every day, I guess.

 

[maninahat]

And to discuss the video itself; She's picked some interesting examples to illustrate her point. Ellie, Alyx and Elizabeth are widely considered some of the roundest, most well written female characters in gaming history. I get her point about how Elizabeth is basically a walking dispenser throughout the gameplay, but outside of the gameplay Bioshock Infinite becomes her story.

It says to me that a major flaw with game design is just how limited it is when it comes to interactivity. Bioshock Infinite is a story about a detective getting stuck in a fantastical, retrograde, flying city. In practise though, it is eight hours of shooting people in the face. With gameplay like that, there is only so many ways a player can interact with the world. Elizabeth is someone you can't shoot, so she can only exist to help you shoot other people. If she shot people too, it would undermine the story they wanted to tell. Ironically they have to pigeonhole her into a cheap support role just so they can make her a better character in the story that's segregated from the gameplay.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

And to discuss the video itself; She's picked some interesting examples to illustrate her point. Ellie, Alyx and Elizabeth are widely considered some of the roundest, most well written female characters in gaming history. I get her point about how Elizabeth is basically a walking dispenser throughout the gameplay, but outside of the gameplay Bioshock Infinite becomes her story.

It says to me that a major flaw with game design is just how limited it is when it comes to interactivity. Bioshock Infinite is a story about a detective getting stuck in a fantastical, retrograde, flying city. In practise though, it is eight hours of shooting people in the face. With gameplay like that, there is only so many ways a player can interact with the world. Elizabeth is someone you can't shoot, so she can only exist to help you shoot other people. If she shot people too, it would undermine the story they wanted to tell. Ironically they have to pigeonhole her into a cheap support role just so they can make her a better character in the story that's segregated from the gameplay.

Wo. You can't talk about the video!

Can you really say outside of gameplay when talking about a video game? Gameplay is a good chunk of a game and it's rather important too. It would be like saying outside of my job I am a good worker. They really shouldn't have had gameplay like that if they wanted to make the game about Elizabeth. They could have made a crazy cool game about switching between different realities as Elizabeth.

 

[maninahat]

And to discuss the video itself; She's picked some interesting examples to illustrate her point. Ellie, Alyx and Elizabeth are widely considered some of the roundest, most well written female characters in gaming history. I get her point about how Elizabeth is basically a walking dispenser throughout the gameplay, but outside of the gameplay Bioshock Infinite becomes her story.

It says to me that a major flaw with game design is just how limited it is when it comes to interactivity. Bioshock Infinite is a story about a detective getting stuck in a fantastical, retrograde, flying city. In practise though, it is eight hours of shooting people in the face. With gameplay like that, there is only so many ways a player can interact with the world. Elizabeth is someone you can't shoot, so she can only exist to help you shoot other people. If she shot people too, it would undermine the story they wanted to tell. Ironically they have to pigeonhole her into a cheap support role just so they can make her a better character in the story that's segregated from the gameplay.

Wo. You can't talk about the video!

I know, 8 pages in and no one is talking about the contents of the damn video.

Can you really say outside of gameplay when talking about a video game? Gameplay is a good chunk of a game and it's rather important too. It would be like saying outside of my job I am a good worker. They really shouldn't have had gameplay like that if they wanted to make the game about Elizabeth. They could have made a crazy cool game about switching between different realities as Elizabeth.

It's why you get terms like ludonarrative dissonance floating around; The game wants us to think of Elizabeth as this sleeping god figure, but in practise she is a sidekick who fetches you coins whilst you shoot people. It is seen as a fault of the game designers to not be able to marry these two things together, or at least, make a game in which dimension jumping is a mechanic outside of cut scenes. I think a lot of people wanted to know why Elizabeth wasn't the PC for a long time. When she finally comes around to being the main character in the DLC, the game takes away her superpowers. Great!

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

And to discuss the video itself; She's picked some interesting examples to illustrate her point. Ellie, Alyx and Elizabeth are widely considered some of the roundest, most well written female characters in gaming history. I get her point about how Elizabeth is basically a walking dispenser throughout the gameplay, but outside of the gameplay Bioshock Infinite becomes her story.

It says to me that a major flaw with game design is just how limited it is when it comes to interactivity. Bioshock Infinite is a story about a detective getting stuck in a fantastical, retrograde, flying city. In practise though, it is eight hours of shooting people in the face. With gameplay like that, there is only so many ways a player can interact with the world. Elizabeth is someone you can't shoot, so she can only exist to help you shoot other people. If she shot people too, it would undermine the story they wanted to tell. Ironically they have to pigeonhole her into a cheap support role just so they can make her a better character in the story that's segregated from the gameplay.

Wo. You can't talk about the video!

I know, 8 pages in and no one is talking about the contents of the damn video.

Can you really say outside of gameplay when talking about a video game? Gameplay is a good chunk of a game and it's rather important too. It would be like saying outside of my job I am a good worker. They really shouldn't have had gameplay like that if they wanted to make the game about Elizabeth. They could have made a crazy cool game about switching between different realities as Elizabeth.

It's why you get terms like ludonarrative dissonance floating around; The game wants us to think of Elizabeth as this sleeping god figure, but in practise she is a sidekick who fetches you coins whilst you shoot people. It is seen as a fault of the game designers to not be able to marry these two things together, or at least, make a game in which dimension jumping is a mechanic outside of cut scenes. I think a lot of people wanted to know why Elizabeth wasn't the PC for a long time. When she finally comes around to being the main character in the DLC, the game takes away her superpowers. Great!

I never got the idea she was meant to be a sleeping god. The impression I had waffled between she is your daughter / your girlfriend. (The second one is kind of creepy when you know the story.)

 

[Karadalis]

Personally?

I blame Kotaku and Polygon for her fame. They put her on a pedestal.. and the things they reported about would be taken up by any other gaming website as gospel.

What alot of people here tend to forget was how the big gaming websites pretty much entered a symbiotic relationship with Anita. You couldnt go a week without an article about her person, her "work" or what paranoid delusional bomb/gun/rape threat she had come up with this time.

They reported that this "brave and strong female" internet nobody got harassed by 4chan because she "dared" to challange sexism in video games... wich generated alot of clicks for them. She in turn got her kickstarter funded with overwhelming success, gaming websites keep reporting about harassment (wich was carefully moderated by femfreq) wich in turn gave Anita even more support, wich in turn generated more clicks for those websites and the show was going on and on and on till the aftermath of the GamerGate fiasco bit most gaming websites in the arse by becoming irrelevant and unapealing to advertise on....

See the thing was that there was not a single one of the big gaming websites that ever took a critical look at her videos, her methods and the flaws in her arguments.

Infact the reporting about her never really was about the things she said or tried to argue, it was allways only about brave Sir Anita fighting the internet trolls because she dared to speak against mysoginy and sexism in the industry.

That she completly failed to proof such things exist was never ever questioned, nor that her videos where utter garbage rive with stolen footage, deceptive edits, context avoidance, false nonsensic claims and links to "scholars" that turned out to be feminist internet blogs without any credentials.

Bad tropes arent sexist... they are just bad story tropes.. but that wasnt the argument she made, she made the argument that bad story/character tropes ACTUALLY negatively influenced the real world... this claim alone should have made the gaming websites realize that shes just another jack thompson

THAT was what got people really triggered, the unwavering, unquestioning support from the gaming media and the constant shoving in your face that was going on. And in all honesty i think most of the vitriol should be directed at gaming media for pushing a liar like Sarkesian like that.

 

[Trunkage]

I'm glad this is finally over. I'm tired of this new trend where every game protagonist is a woman and it's all about women. Now that this series is done, things will go back to normal. I miss manly games where I do manly things. I miss the straight white guy protagonists.

Hey, more female protagonists are a good thing. More nicely shaped butts to watch as you game.

One of the things that I like to play is Netball. Becuase it has females in. I generally like female and like to interact with them. I never understood the desire to play in a male only sport. Or when football keeps putting barriers up for female spectators (for example, female reporters are seen as less worthy becuase they haven't played true football.) don't they like females too?

 

[infohippie]

I'm glad this is finally over. I'm tired of this new trend where every game protagonist is a woman and it's all about women. Now that this series is done, things will go back to normal. I miss manly games where I do manly things. I miss the straight white guy protagonists.

Hey, more female protagonists are a good thing. More nicely shaped butts to watch as you game.

One of the things that I like to play is Netball. Becuase it has females in. I generally like female and like to interact with them. I never understood the desire to play in a male only sport. Or when football keeps putting barriers up for female spectators (for example, female reporters are seen as less worthy becuase they haven't played true football.) don't they like females too?

If reports of what happens in locker rooms are even half correct, then no, apparently they don't like females.

 

[Wintermute_v1legacy]

I'm glad this is finally over. I'm tired of this new trend where every game protagonist is a woman and it's all about women. Now that this series is done, things will go back to normal. I miss manly games where I do manly things. I miss the straight white guy protagonists.

Hey, more female protagonists are a good thing. More nicely shaped butts to watch as you game.

One of the things that I like to play is Netball. Becuase it has females in. I generally like female and like to interact with them. I never understood the desire to play in a male only sport. Or when football keeps putting barriers up for female spectators (for example, female reporters are seen as less worthy becuase they haven't played true football.) don't they like females too?

Never heard of Netball before, watched some random Australia vs New Zealand game for a while, and it looks better than baseball, at least I kind of understand what's going on. Like a mix of basketball and handball and you play it with a volleyball, and once you have the ball you can't move? And the person defending can't move? I didn't read the rules, that would ruin the magic.

Australia is cheating though because they have this giant playing for them and she scores every time.

 

[Dragonbums]

Finally. Now the non supporters can finally shut up about the damn woman being the greatest con artist and scammer of the 21st century.

Never seen so much outrage and hair trigger reactions to the most bland potatoes YouTube feminist in my entire internet life.

 

[Dragonbums]

I know, 8 pages in and no one is talking about the contents of the damn video.

This right here is the main crux of why Anita got to be so infamous and why opinions of her vary from extreme rage to annoyed apathy.

Every single fucking time I decided to waste 3 hours of my life going in to an Anita discussion I always made a point to slog through her videos to get the full context.
Often times this is the worst possible thing to do because when you go in to the comments you can see how many people parrot shit that is straight up untrue.

On top of that after a certain point of debating the topic with said users they always eventually admit that either

A) They never watched the video to begin with and were just spouting hate shit.

B) They got their knowledge of the video second/third hand knowledge from rage forums or friends who also hate her

C) They DID watch the video and either jumped to the most incorrect conclusion or they are purposefully muddying up what she said to further stir the rage pot.

I remember a particular outrage where people were claiming that Anita called Miyamoto a sexist in her Damsel video. I went and watched it and she said nothing of the sort. What she said was that Miayamoto perpetuates a sexist Trope in regards to Peachs' role in the Mario core games.
But I suppose if you already had an axe to grind and you like being intellectually dishonest you can claim the former.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Not that I cared about this (I watched one episode and was the exact opposite of impressed), but...

"Meticulous" research?! WHAT?

The same series that was like "You are rewarded in hitman for doing all these awful things to women characters!" when the game actually PENALIZES you for not being a super sneaky assassin?

Yeah, that's the exact opposite of meticulous.

Considering her stuff was either wrong or extremely basic, I'm still shocked that the internet made her into such a huge controversial figure. If no one would have paid her any mind, she would never have gotten as big as she did. She didn't research her stuff well, and the few times she did make a good point, she expressed it in such an in-eloquent way that she gave the wrong impression, which her PR team usually doubled down on. -_-

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Well, hopefully her next project involves a less reactionary fan base. Seriously, as far as gaming blasphemy goes, the fucking Game Theory guys are an order of magnitude worse.

She picked a fight...

Phhhhahaha.

She launched a kickstarter. Gamers picked the fight.

She launched a kickstarter that was then spammed on 4chan, which would basically be kicking the hornets nest, and then crying that you got stung.

 

[Trunkage]

I'm glad this is finally over. I'm tired of this new trend where every game protagonist is a woman and it's all about women. Now that this series is done, things will go back to normal. I miss manly games where I do manly things. I miss the straight white guy protagonists.

Hey, more female protagonists are a good thing. More nicely shaped butts to watch as you game.

One of the things that I like to play is Netball. Becuase it has females in. I generally like female and like to interact with them. I never understood the desire to play in a male only sport. Or when football keeps putting barriers up for female spectators (for example, female reporters are seen as less worthy becuase they haven't played true football.) don't they like females too?

Never heard of Netball before, watched some random Australia vs New Zealand game for a while, and it looks better than baseball, at least I kind of understand what's going on. Like a mix of basketball and handball and you play it with a volleyball, and once you have the ball you can't move? And the person defending can't move? I didn't read the rules, that would ruin the magic.

Australia is cheating though because they have this giant playing for them and she scores every time.

Back around the turn of last century, Basketball was seen as too strenuous for females to try (and also American) so to protect England women but let them play a sport, they placed a bunch of restriction on basketball. Remember, still in the 1950s, women weren't allowed to run long distances because it might ruin their "birthing waters." Also, this restrictions were made BY women, because they believed in these shenanigans too.
Each person can on go in certain zone (goal scorer/keeper are only allowed in the circle near the goal. Defenders are only allowed in the back two thirds and the attackers in the front. This game is actually pretty complicated). This reduces the length a women has to run.
Also to stop women running, they made the rule of stopping when holding the ball. The defender has to stay arms length from the ball handler. So the defender could move around but there is an imaginary circle around the ball handler - the defender probably has only a few viable places to stand. Its meant to be even less contact than basketball, because women.

Don't worried about NZ, they get us back in Rugby (Union not League). Also, if you cant a baseball analogy, try looking at cricket.

 

[Trunkage]

snip

The internet understand nuance? It not really capable of that

She launched a kickstarter that was then spammed on 4chan, which would basically be kicking the hornets nest, and then crying that you got stung.

When you kick a hornets nest, you are actively interacting with the nest. Anita situation was more like someone threw a hornets nest at her because they didn't like what she said.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

She tried to 'force' change by positioning herself as a moral arbiter - as a judge of what is good enough, and what not good enough. Well, she tried.

As for why her videos are bad? My favorite example is her "women in the fridge" video, where she talks about games using plot devices consisting of women getting hurt or killed, as motivations for the player character to get mad/get even/go on a quest of vengeance as a bad thing.

The trick is that she just says that's a bad thing. At no point does she stop and go "You know, wanting to save and help other people is a basic human drive - that its mainly men saving women is a bit one-sided, but ultimately wanting to help other people isn't a bad thing" - no, in her videos it is 100% a bad thing, with nothing good in it. Thats part of why her videos are so bad.

She's talking about the writing in the game. The problem is not that saving people is a bad thing, it's that it's lazy writing. I heard a quote a long time ago that easily describes the problem with this. "When you want to make a woman tragic, you hurt her. When you want to make a man tragic, you hurt a woman." It's a major trend in writing to have a woman character that only exists to get killed or kidnapped to make a man sad. She isn't the one who came up with the term Women in Refrigerators.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

I won't deny that the editing in her videos was sleazy, the Hitman example was a good one, but she also had a list of games where you can kill prostitutes and on it was Metro Last Light...yeah...you can't do that in Metro Last Light. But the problem is that Women in Refrigerators is a long standing problem. I don't see how her not saying "Well it's human to want to save people," has anything to do with it.

Friend, it has something to do with context and how you frame an issue

As you note yourself, she likes to frame things that aren't entirely true as fact - and indeed, most of the videos with her are just her opinions on things when you get down to it.

She thinks that games with women being the thing that a male player character have to save/avenge/whatnot is a bad thing.

She has NEVER given any kind of actual evidence to this, other than appeals to emotions. Oh she'll say that influences culture and society... but she has never given any solid proof of this.

Conversely, back in 2015 there was this lovely study that got published: A 3 year long study looking to see if playing video games made you sexist. It found that you did not become so via video games. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25844719

That's another thing about Sarkeesian's vids: They're one-sided. In her videos it is assumed from the getgo that her premise is correct. She never tries herself to demonstrate anything that might prove her wrong, indeed that deceptive video editing and whatnot is a good example of that. If they're supposed to be 'documentaries' then they MUST look at both sides of the argument.

Hell, in one of her earlier vids she straight up said, while talking about the Mario games, that she completely ignores all the non-platformer games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart and whatnot, so she can maintain a fiction that in 'all' Mario games Princess Peach is but a helpless damsel. This is so disingenuous, because if you look at sales stats for mario games, then party games like Mario Kart and Smash Bros make up a huge part of the mario games being sold today - and in those games Peach can kick just as much butt as everyone else.

But we can't mention that... nope, not at all.

When it comes to science, a very important element is fallibility. Your theory must have room for it to be wrong - a theory that cannot be proven wrong is not scientific. Gravity can proven through experiments. Theorems on how to measure the tensile strength of metals can be proven via experiments.

You must always include mention of the things that prove you wrong. Cherry picking your samples is a great way to be branded a liar and a fraud. Sarkeesian, is a fraud.

I'm not talking about her, I don't care for her, but women in refrigerators is a thing, a well documented thing.

It's also not an inherently sexist thing. Heck, the tropes page brings up a bunch of examples using male characters. It's not about hurting or throwing away women, it's about hurting the main character through the people he treasures most, and that usually involves a girlfriend or spouse.

For crying out loud, the trope name doesn't even mention women anymore!