Corvid-19 and its impact (name edit)

tstorm823

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Kwak said:
Well, that's America done for. As always, it's not about how to do things the best way according to experts in the field, it's about covering up administrative incompetence and punishing those who try to expose it. Kind of like China.
Officials at the Department of Health and Human Services sent more than a dozen workers to receive the first Americans evacuated from Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, without proper training for infection control or appropriate protective gear, according to a whistleblower complaint.
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The whistleblower is seeking federal protection, alleging she was unfairly and improperly reassigned after raising concerns about the safety of these workers to HHS officials, including those within the office of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar. She was told Feb. 19 that if she does not accept the new position in 15 days, which is March 5, she would be terminated.

The whistleblower has decades of experience in the field, received two HHS department awards from Azar last year and has received the highest performance evaluations, her lawyers said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/27/us-workers-without-protective-gear-assisted-coronavirus-evacuees-hhs-whistleblower-says/
Somebody check me on this: does that article ever say unambiguously that they did or did not have PPE? I'm pretty sure the author spends the entire article using grammar tricks and qualifiers to make it seem as though they went in unprotected without ever actually saying so. They didn't have "appropriate protective gear", but what counts as appropriate? It compares them to CDC workers basically in hazmat, so is that the line for appropriate? They "weren't trained or equipped to work in a public health emergency", but the word equipped in that context doesn't necessarily mean physically equipment, people say "not equipped to deal with" in an intellectual sense all the time. Again, "appropriate steps" weren't taken, they "were not trained in wearing PPE". And then it says several people voiced objections to sending those particular people to do that task, which makes the read of "they had PPE, but just weren't trained specialists for specifically working with quarantined people" seem even more likely.

Like, I think that article managed to maliciously use the term "face-to-face" is what I'm saying. I think that article is dedicated to making you think they were just sent out to meet coronavirus patients without even a mask to protect them while explicitly never saying so.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-anthony-fauci-trump-admin-stops-discussion-2020-2?utm_source=reddit.com

Well this sure sounds like a great way to handle issues requiring actual expertise when the message may be inconvenient
 

Seanchaidh

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CaitSeith said:
Agema said:
Baffle2 said:
Maybe a gig economy in which many people simply cannot afford to not work was a bad idea. Especially, say, carers, who travel from gig to gig visiting people who're already a bit peaky.
No, the gig economy is a great idea - for businesses. They don't need to give a shit if half the country can't pay their bills.

With of course the possible exception that they may stop buying things, in which case still no big deal, because that's what government's for, eh? Welfare should keep them buying knick-knacks, or alternatively cut out the middleman plebs and just get a direct bailout.
Yeah, because the Great Depression certainly was great for businesses all around, wasn't it? /s
The rich don't mind recessions and depressions that much; as long as they're still at the top, they're doing fine. Some who bet poorly on which industries to be invested in come out worse or even ruined, but rich people generally do fine.
 

CaitSeith

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Seanchaidh said:
CaitSeith said:
Agema said:
Baffle2 said:
Maybe a gig economy in which many people simply cannot afford to not work was a bad idea. Especially, say, carers, who travel from gig to gig visiting people who're already a bit peaky.
No, the gig economy is a great idea - for businesses. They don't need to give a shit if half the country can't pay their bills.

With of course the possible exception that they may stop buying things, in which case still no big deal, because that's what government's for, eh? Welfare should keep them buying knick-knacks, or alternatively cut out the middleman plebs and just get a direct bailout.
Yeah, because the Great Depression certainly was great for businesses all around, wasn't it? /s
The rich don't mind recessions and depressions that much; as long as they're still at the top, they're doing fine. Some who bet poorly on which industries to be invested in come out worse or even ruined, but rich people generally do fine.
Businesses are different to the rich. Don't use real people and legal entities interchangeably.
 

Agema

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Seanchaidh said:
The rich don't mind recessions and depressions that much; as long as they're still at the top, they're doing fine. Some who bet poorly on which industries to be invested in come out worse or even ruined, but rich people generally do fine.
A little part of me wonders whether that's the logic of Brexit in the Tory Party. Exit the EU, the British economy will weaken: but that doesn't really matter for an economic elite whose profits are international. And in fact, as the UK gets relatively poorer and living costs relatively decline, potentially it becomes an even more attractive (cheaper) playground for the super-rich, especially with some extra tax breaks sneaked in. The public can then be won over with jingoism and the massively biased right-wing press.

Having said all that, the majority of me still believes even truth-challenged lightweights like Johnson and his cronies wouldn't tank the country just for a relatively small economic elite.
 

Agema

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tstorm823 said:
Somebody check me on this: does that article ever say unambiguously that they did or did not have PPE?
Broadly, I'd be inclined to agree that I'd prefer to see what occurred in detail before we judge whether the government sent in workers with insufficient care about infection control.
 

Seanchaidh

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CaitSeith said:
Seanchaidh said:
CaitSeith said:
Agema said:
Baffle2 said:
Maybe a gig economy in which many people simply cannot afford to not work was a bad idea. Especially, say, carers, who travel from gig to gig visiting people who're already a bit peaky.
No, the gig economy is a great idea - for businesses. They don't need to give a shit if half the country can't pay their bills.

With of course the possible exception that they may stop buying things, in which case still no big deal, because that's what government's for, eh? Welfare should keep them buying knick-knacks, or alternatively cut out the middleman plebs and just get a direct bailout.
Yeah, because the Great Depression certainly was great for businesses all around, wasn't it? /s
The rich don't mind recessions and depressions that much; as long as they're still at the top, they're doing fine. Some who bet poorly on which industries to be invested in come out worse or even ruined, but rich people generally do fine.
Businesses are different to the rich. Don't use real people and legal entities interchangeably.
Businesses are legal entities that are controlled by and exist to serve certain persons. If something is "bad for business" but acceptable to the people who own businesses, then it is functionally just acceptable to businesses.

Agema said:
Seanchaidh said:
The rich don't mind recessions and depressions that much; as long as they're still at the top, they're doing fine. Some who bet poorly on which industries to be invested in come out worse or even ruined, but rich people generally do fine.
A little part of me wonders whether that's the logic of Brexit in the Tory Party. Exit the EU, the British economy will weaken: but that doesn't really matter for an economic elite whose profits are international. And in fact, as the UK gets relatively poorer and living costs relatively decline, potentially it becomes an even more attractive (cheaper) playground for the super-rich, especially with some extra tax breaks sneaked in. The public can then be won over with jingoism and the massively biased right-wing press.

Having said all that, the majority of me still believes even truth-challenged lightweights like Johnson and his cronies wouldn't tank the country just for a relatively small economic elite.
That sounds like something that would happen here in the United States, though possibly not intentionally on the part of the politicians.
 
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Don't worry, guys. The coronavirus threat has been overstated by the Democratic party as another way to score points against Donald Trump, and really isn't that big of a deal to us Americans. At least, that's what Trump said in North Charleston. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-coronavirus-health-economic-risks/2020/02/28/0b817082-5a3a-11ea-9b35-def5a027d470_story.html]
 

Kwak

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And the white house chief of staff said it's just a plot to make him look bad.
White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney on Friday suggested that Americans should ignore media reports about the coronavirus amid fears of the deadly disease spreading into the U.S.

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Mulvaney claimed that the media has only started paying close attention to the coronavirus because "they think this is going to be what brings down the president."
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Mulvaney said he was asked by a reporter, "What are you going to do today to calm the markets?"

"I'm like, 'Really what I might do today [to] calm the markets is tell people turn their televisions off for 24 hours.'"

Still, the disease is "absolutely" real, Mulvaney said. But, he said, "You saw the president the other day ? the flu is real."

"This is not Ebola ... it's not SARS, it's not MERS," Mulvaney said.

"We sit there and watch the markets and there's this huge panic and it's like, why isn't there this huge panic every single year over flu?" Mulvaney asked rhetorically.

"Are you going to see some schools shut down? Probably. May you see impacts on public transportation? Sure."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-chief-of-staff-mick-mulvaney-suggests-people-ignore-coronavirus-news-to-calm-markets/ar-BB10wBvn
US is doomed
 

Agema

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Kwak said:
And the white house chief of staff said it's just a plot to make him look bad.
...
US is doomed
And let's not forget the extent to which it's the Federal Reserve's fault, and that it "should start being a leader", because an interest rate of 1.75% is apparently not low enough.

And let's not forget that if the shit really hits the fan, Mike Pence has been set up to take the blame.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Eacaraxe said:
When I was still there, I suggested to management and corporate running simulations of how highly-infectious diseases might spread through the network through employee handling so as to create and improve EAP's for it. Hell, I even went so far as to create a plan for how such a simulation might proceed, which with Amazon's inventory software would be trivially easy. Got exactly what you'd expect: "thanks for your input, I'll forward this to Dave Null right away".
I don't understand. What was it you suggested to the higher ups?
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Specter Von Baren said:
I don't understand. What was it you suggested to the higher ups?
Well, specifically I suggested creating a script that would simulate the spread of an infectious disease through Amazon's fulfillment network, by calling their employee-tracking and inventory management databases. Say, a certain percentage of incoming freight has a chance of being contaminated with some disease, people who handle that inventory have a chance of becoming sick, and people who come into contact with that person has a chance of making others sick.
 

BrawlMan

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As always, Double toasted uses common sense. I recommend listening to the last 5 to 8 minutes of the commentary especially.
 

Agema

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CaitSeith said:
I'm pretty sure two years ago the White House thought this was a good idea:

https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...eeing-pandemic-response-suddenly-leaves-admin

Pretty much like saving money while starting a cross-country car trip by selling your spare tire.
Not the worst analogy, but...

The decision may often be made that if something is rare enough, it's not worth paying someone to be constantly on standby to deal with it. A lot of the time, people get away with these decisions. If the worst doesn't happen for twenty years after cancelling, when it does nobody really remembers that once upon a time there was an agency or something to deal with it. If the worst occurs two years after cancelling, however, it looks really bad. Much of that is dumb luck.

In theory, expertise will be around (e.g. in the CDC, military) to activate quickly; plans for theoretical responses should still exist. Mostly what will be missing is someone readily familiar with those processes and plans to co-ordinate a response. What I'd have expected / hoped is that someone would be put on standby to brush up as soon as China announced covid-19. Potentially someone was - a civil servant, someone in the military, etc. We just might not hear about them because it's not the sort of thing they bother telling us. We only hear when some bigwig like Pence gets put in command with political authority.
 

Kwak

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I wonder how much longer competent public servants can continue to manage to work around this idiot.
The president's statements to the press were terrifying. That press availability was a repudiation of good science and good crisis management from inside one of the world?s most respected scientific institutions. It was full of Dear Leader-ish compliments, non-sequitorial defenses of unrelated matters, attacks on an American governor, and - most importantly - misinformation about the virus and the US response. That's particularly painful coming from inside the CDC, a longtime powerhouse in global public health now reduced to being a backdrop for grubby politics. During a public health crisis, clear and true information from leaders is the only way to avoid dangerous panic. Yet here we are.
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Azar started talking about the tests health care workers use to determine whether someone is infected with the new coronavirus. The lack of those kits has meant a dangerous lack of epidemiological information about the spread and severity of the disease in the US, exacerbated by opacity on the part of the government. Azar tried to say that more tests were on the way, pending quality control.

Then Trump cut Azar off. "But I think, importantly, anybody, right now and yesterday, that needs a test gets a test. They're there, they have the tests, and the tests are beautiful. Anybody that needs a test gets a test," Trump said.

This is untrue. Vice President Pence told reporters Thursday that the US didn't have enough test kits to meet demand. New York governor Andrew Cuomo announced that his state would develop its own coronavirus tests because the federal government version wasn't available in enough quantity.
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The president seems not to want to allow passengers out of their quarantine on board the ship and into quarantine on land. It wasn't clear at the CDC why sick people on board the Grand Princess wouldn't get counted in US numbers of infected people, or why he thinks that accounting is relevant, but it very much sounded like the president didn't want to bring sick people to safety and medical care because doing so might make him look bad. "I like the numbers being where they are. I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault," the president said. Apparently what that means is that he doesn't want the numbers of sick people to reflect the actual numbers of sick people? - a statistic that would help researchers understand the spread of the disease.
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Then the president returned to another old talking point - that because one of his relatives was a scientist, he, too, is good at science. A reporter started asking a question, and Trump cut her off: "I like this stuff. You know my uncle was a great person. He was at MIT. He taught at MIT for, I think, like, a record number of years. He was a great supergenius, Dr. John Trump."

The president has often mentioned his uncle, a respected engineer who worked with Robert Van de Graaf at MIT in the 1930s on electrostatic generators and went on to pioneer the treatment of cancer with radiation. President Trump has brought up his uncle in reference to climate change and as evidence that the president himself would have a genetic predisposition to be good at science. It?s putting it kindly to call this a bold claim. No one has identified a gene for science ability, because?well, how would that work, exactly? The effects of genetics on intelligence more broadly are controversial in science, and probably much less than the effects of environment and upbringing.

"I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it," the president went on. He started talking about his tour of the CDC he'd taken before his talk to the press. "Every one of these doctors said, 'How do you know so much about this?' Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president."

It seems unlikely that every scientist at the CDC marveled at the president's scientific acumen. Earlier in the very same press conference, the president admitted that he didn't know, before Covid-19, that people died of the flu. Not only does seasonal influenza kill tens of thousands of people every year, but President Trump's own grandfather was an early victim of the global 1918 flu pandemic.
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But the president insisted. "I understand that whole world. I love that world. I really do. I love that world," he said "And you know what? The whole world is relying on us."

Unclear what he meant there - whether the president loves the world of the CDC, or the world of science or medicine. Regardless, it's clear that the world is in fact not relying on the US to do anything about Covid-19. According to Science, at the end of February the World Health Organization had sent its version of a coronavirus test to 57 countries - but not the US, for reasons the US government still hasn't explained. China was conducting 1.6 million tests a week with five different kinds of test kits, and South Korea had tested 65,000 people - all without US help. Singapore researchers invented the first blood-based test for use in keeping track of people with the disease. Italy and Japan are relying on their own public health infrastructures to deal with their outbreaks, and so far every other country where the disease is circulating guarantees paid sick leave, so people can stay home rather than spread it further. That's a low bar, because the US guarantees zero days of paid sick leave to anyone.

So no. The world is not counting on the US response to Covid-19. And judging by this short press conference at the CDC, that's probably for the best.
https://www.wired.com/story/trumps-coronavirus-press-event-was-even-worse-than-it-looked/
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Agema said:
In theory, expertise will be around (e.g. in the CDC, military) to activate quickly; plans for theoretical responses should still exist. Mostly what will be missing is someone readily familiar with those processes and plans to co-ordinate a response. What I'd have expected / hoped is that someone would be put on standby to brush up as soon as China announced covid-19. Potentially someone was - a civil servant, someone in the military, etc. We just might not hear about them because it's not the sort of thing they bother telling us. We only hear when some bigwig like Pence gets put in command with political authority.
In practice, the areas you try to mothball tend to suffer heavily from not being left up to date. In terms of the military you can take a look at the US Army in the interwar years. It was so anemic that it took three years to get a sizable force up and another two before it could conduct offensive action consistently. The Swedish military was similar after it was gutted completely in the interwar years (only reaching some kind of readiness in 1943 or so, long after the threat of German invasion had passed) and is seeing a similar problem now, having been starved massively since the Cold War and getting sweeping 'rationalization' reforms in the late 00's. Even now, after five years of playing catch-up it is still a long shot away from being ready to fight a defensive war on Swedish soil [footnote]a friend of mine who's a staff NCO relayed the story about how they have some odd 200 long distance radios in long-term storage, but the only guy who had familiarization and specialization on them retired and didn't get a replacement due to cost saving concerns, thus leaving 200 radios that were functional but useless due to a lack of skill.[/footnote]

Healthcare is very much similar, in that it is a field that's very knowledge and experience dependent. Having a theoretical outline on how to handle a pandemic, toxic waste leak or terror attack is very different from having staff on hand that's been repeatedly trained to handle those situations. While it might be seen as wasteful to have a department sitting around waiting for a pandemic to come around, there's absolutely no substitute for keeping up to date with the latest research, conducting regular exercises and having a department that can consistently spread awareness and help other parts of healthcare (hospitals, outpatient clinics etc.) by providing assistance, teaching and hands on experience with how to handle virulent, contagious diseases.
 

CaitSeith

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They say the coronavirus caused the recent stock market crash; but it's more likely to be the oil war's fault.