Could an action-RPG work without leveling up?

Dreiko_v1legacy

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It definitely could, you could have story-based char growth.



The problems arise when you wanna play char X but you don't wanna do the choices which correspond to your preferred playstyle. Say for example that the big weapon using class is some kind of evil clan...and you wanna play a good guy. You'd be limited to good-guy char-development only.





I think a mix of ALL things is the best. Have levels, have the flowcharts, also have some skills you gain through story mode.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Could it work?
Yeah, no reason for it not to.

Better, worse, same?
Objectively its just a different system. Personally, I wouldn't enjoy it. I'll take Skyrim as an example.
Now, lets say this system was implemented fully. I decide I want to become a ninja assassin dodger dude. I got into fights, but I'm crap at dodging. I can never time it right, never move out of the way in time, and all round just fail at it. With this system, I could NEVER be a class with lots of dodging, as I personally can't do that.
Of course, I'm not sure how a dodging skill would work in an action RPG, but we'll go with sneaking here. I suck at sneaking in Skyrim, and as such I'm never able to play a sneaking character. It is not in my personal skillset.
Come an RPG like DA:O, however, and I am a master of stealth. I don't need to try over and over again at a task I'm hopeless at to be able to sneak, I simply need to put a couple of skill points in that skill, then move on.

I wouldn't like said system as it would limit how I could play to what I was good at. I play RPGs to be something I'm not. If I can't dodge well, can't sneak well, can't block with good timing, or fail to do anything else, a class revolving around said skills is lost to me. That's not fun for me.
 

TephlonPrice

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Yeah, something like that could work. Hell, it worked in GTA: San Andreas despite it not being an RPG. The thing there: you didn't level up traditionally; you leveled up your skills in areas (muscles, stamina, gun combat, driving, flying, etc.) by doing said activities or doing activities that allow for training said activities. And it worked there, so in an RPG, maybe it could work.
 

Vankraken

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TephlonPrice said:
Yeah, something like that could work. Hell, it worked in GTA: San Andreas despite it not being an RPG. The thing there: you didn't level up traditionally; you leveled up your skills in areas (muscles, stamina, gun combat, driving, flying, etc.) by doing said activities or doing activities that allow for training said activities. And it worked there, so in an RPG, maybe it could work.
Yeah i was about to post GTA:SA then i saw your post.

Basically having the goal of improving your skill instead of achieving an experience point where you go from level A to level B is more realistic to how people get better than Billy doing yard work until he levels and suddenly he improves his cooking and public speaking skills. One of the things that happened in San Andreas is that at different skill thresholds you "unlocked" new improvements to using these guns that could easily be "Perks" or "Talents" in other games.
 

DanDeFool

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Crono1973 said:
madwarper said:
Last time I checked, Final Fantasy 2 already exists. It was just as grindy as any other Final Fantasy, only slightly easier to abuse.

I don't think this system is inherently better or worse than the conventional method, only different. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this classless, become-a-god, I-can-master-everything type game.
Yeah, Square had the idea before Bethesda and the idea might even pre-date FF2.

If memory serves, Chrono Cross has a similar system too.
As did Dungeon Siege. You had four skill bars corresponding to melee, ranged, and two types of magic. You needed to meet the skill cap in order to use certain weapons, armor, and spells. Though, now that I think about it, that may have just been how they handled skills, not levels per-se.

I think persistent worlds (i.e., MMOs) could benefit from some experimentation with the EVE online method of training skills in real-time. Also, I think that Devil May Cry offers a viable alternative, in that you never really "level up" but rather buy skills and upgrades to your health and magic. Terraria did something similar, and it had a RPG-like progression.
 

Gatx

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And here I thought the OP meant an RPG like game without stat tracking at all, which would basically be Zelda and possibly Metroid and/or Metroidvania. A lot of people continually make the mistake of calling Zelda an RPG anyway.

The best and most simple way of streamling an action RPG in my opinion is rather than tracking stat growth, you just stick with a very standard leveling system - gain experience, level up, stats are assigned according to your class. No muss no fuss and you get the gratification of a "LEVEL UP!" sign. If you want further differentiation among characters the game could offer branching class trees. Every character doesn't need to have unique stats to be unique, those are differences the player might not even notice, just having different play styles is enough.
 

Andrewtheeviscerator

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Anthraxus said:
piinyouri said:
I wish RPG's would die.
So these threads could die as well.
Would you rather discuss FPS #78657448576567598987 ?

RPGs have been dead, btw. At least until we start getting some of these kickstarter projects coming out.
Funny some people would say RPGs started becoming good once they started abandoning the archaic D&D system, but hey that's just my opinion.
 

runic knight

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Why hasn't anyone brought up ratchet and clank?
I know, I know, not really an rpg, but look at how the player growth was largely based in weapon growth. As you used a weapon more, it got stronger, did more effects or even evolved into a new weapon. If you look at that as instead of the weapons growing and more like a growth of ratchet getting better at using the weapon (for guns, this doesn't make much logical sense, but for melee, bows or magic it does), then it is sort of the system being asked for.

Rather then numbers signifying how strong someone is and having that be part of bonuses applied to use of weapons or magic, I think what is being asked here is streamlining that to a more similar system as mentioned above. Rather then arbitrary measures of strength or intelligence, simply have character growth in those regards tied into what they would support anyways and have growth stem out of use of the weapons or skills.
This also could make sense as swinging a heavy weapon is likely to make you stronger as you get ore accustom to it. You will develop callouses and muscle memory the more you use a bow or whatever. And you will be able to retain knowledge, and I suppose spells, the more immersed you are in the knowledge.

There is a certain logic in the more you use something, the better you get at it. When it comes to active skills, such as combat, spell casting and the like, this should be very easy to implement. When it comes to aspects such as health or stamina, a little less so but not impossible. It could be based in damage received, or if you don't want that abused, you could have it ties to equipment, relics, specific items that increase it by whatever percentage... lots of options. Hell, you could keep it the same throughout the game, so that it better represents how hard it is to make yourself better then an arrow to the face.

bitter end -catcha, you have been rather dark of late
 

Bostur

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Games with skill level ups tend to be grindy. Or if they are not grindy the level ups feels inevitable and then it might as well be taken out of the game.

It's hard for the player to customize the character in such a system. Playing through the campaign will require a certain number of sword swings and lockpickings. In the end all characters will end up with pretty much the same skills, unless the player goes out of the way to grind up skills that otherwise isn't used much.

Level ups tend to work as a mechanic that can artifically change the deterministic nature of the pre-made campaign. Skill level ups on the other hand will just enforce that pre-designed aspect.

I think it can work. A game with an open world, or a campaign with a lot of different ways to tackle a problem will allow the player some customization. Personally I think I would just prefer the extra customization that is the result of putting points in stats and skills.

Most games with skill levelling are hybrids though. They tend to use a combination of XP levels and skill levelling. The purest systems I have seen were in open world MMOs like Wyrm Online or Darkfall.
 

SajuukKhar

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deathbydeath said:
Umm, why has no one mentioned Stalker yet?
STALKER isn't an RPG, its a FPS with a inventory menu.

Anthraxus said:
Those are the type of newshit gamers that have ruined the genre and the reason we haven't been able to have nice things in the last 10 or so years.

LARPers coming on here to enlighten us about how Role PLaying is being able to dress up your character and go anywhere you want in some crappy 3D gameworld, and the rest is UP TO YOU or the ones who need to get IMMERSED by emotionally engaging cinematic cutscenes and romanceable elf/alien butt sex.

Hell, even the final fantasy 7 or diablow fandom back in mid-90s weren't as disgusting and humiliating to be associated with as the "herp me plays a roles games derp" populace of today.
Seriously?

Are you going to result to ad-hominem attacks against everyone who doesn't share your view as a means to justify your arguments?

That entire post was unnecessarily rude.
 

TephlonPrice

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Vankraken said:
TephlonPrice said:
Yeah, something like that could work. Hell, it worked in GTA: San Andreas despite it not being an RPG. The thing there: you didn't level up traditionally; you leveled up your skills in areas (muscles, stamina, gun combat, driving, flying, etc.) by doing said activities or doing activities that allow for training said activities. And it worked there, so in an RPG, maybe it could work.
Yeah i was about to post GTA:SA then i saw your post.

Basically having the goal of improving your skill instead of achieving an experience point where you go from level A to level B is more realistic to how people get better than Billy doing yard work until he levels and suddenly he improves his cooking and public speaking skills. One of the things that happened in San Andreas is that at different skill thresholds you "unlocked" new improvements to using these guns that could easily be "Perks" or "Talents" in other games.
This is what I've wanted to see in RPGs for a long time. Maybe it's me, but I like to know that my skills in beatassology aren't being wasted on ConversateWithWalls because I didn't feel like putting points in it. I like SA's system for leveling.

The whole perks/talents thing was kinda used in Alpha Protocol, despite it using a traditional leveling system. When you did X number of hand-to-hand takedowns, rifle/pistol/gadget kills, or successful hacks, you earned perks for it.
 

deathbydeath

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SajuukKhar said:
deathbydeath said:
Umm, why has no one mentioned Stalker yet?
STALKER isn't an RPG, its a FPS with a inventory menu.
No, Stalker has levels, quests, and other rpg staples. The levels aren't conveyed through xp and number crunching, but rather through implied tiers of weapons, armor, and gear. It's easy to tell what level the area you're in is because of what everyone else is carrying, and your own level advancement comes through either killing those higher than you and taking their stuff, buying equipment, or finding it in stashes. This method feels more natural and is more "realistic", because it replaces "Ding! You suck less." with "I just accomplished some feat and am now directly rewarded", instead of it filling up an arbitrary meter.
 

SajuukKhar

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deathbydeath said:
No, Stalker has levels, quests, and other rpg staples. The levels aren't conveyed through xp and number crunching, but rather through implied tiers of weapons, armor, and gear. It's easy to tell what level the area you're in is because of what everyone else is carrying, and your own level advancement comes through either killing those higher than you and taking their stuff, buying equipment, or finding it in stashes. This method feels more natural and is more "realistic", because it replaces "Ding! You suck less." with "I just accomplished some feat and am now directly rewarded", instead of it filling up an arbitrary meter.
By that logic Zelda is an RPG, which it is not.

STALKER is more of an action-adventure game then a RPG, well that and a FPS.
 

deathbydeath

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SajuukKhar said:
By that logic Zelda is an RPG, which it is not.

STALKER is more of an action-adventure game then a RPG, well that and a FPS.
Wait, what? What does Zelda have to do with anything? Which Zelda are you talking about? Why is X-Zelda not an rpg?

Sure, Stalker isn't the poster child of rpg's and character building, but it's an interesting way to mimic those same effects while removing xp meters and levels.
 

SajuukKhar

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deathbydeath said:
Wait, what? What does Zelda have to do with anything? Which Zelda are you talking about? Why is X-Zelda not an rpg?

Sure, Stalker isn't the poster child of rpg's and character building, but it's an interesting way to mimic those same effects while removing xp meters and levels.
You said STALKER is an RPG because
-There are different levels of weapons, something Zelda has.
-You can tell what level you are in by what gear the enemies have, which Zelda has by having stronger monsters in the latter dungeons.
-Your level advancement comes from killing those higher than you and taking their stuff, buying equipment, or finding it in stashes. Also something Zelda does.

By your definition Zelda is an RPG for the same reason STALKER is, and yet neither of them are.

No Zelda game is an RPG, they are action adventure games.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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Anthraxus said:
Those are the type of newshit gamers that have ruined the genre and the reason we haven't been able to have nice things in the last 10 or so years.

LARPers coming on here to enlighten us about how Role PLaying is being able to dress up your character and go anywhere you want in some crappy 3D gameworld, and the rest is UP TO YOU or the ones who need to get IMMERSED by emotionally engaging cinematic cutscenes and romanceable elf/alien butt sex.

Hell, even the final fantasy 7 or diablow fandom back in mid-90s weren't as disgusting and humiliating to be associated with as the "herp me plays a roles games derp" populace of today.
This is why you get treated like the village idiot around here. People say, "Just ignore it, he doesn't know any better lulz". Who is going to play great old-school RPGs when they are associated with this hateful dribble? If the person who posted this likes a game, people will understandably suppose it can't be that good.