Creative freedom is dying because of the mainstream blight?

[Kinokohatake]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

I will have to say because you are antagonistic, slightly racist, and say things like

No I don't consider a large part of the FF fanbase legitimate.

You are an elitist. You claim to be the foremost authority on certain matters and tear down others who claim to be on par or more knowledgeable on the matter if they don't agree with you.

And the "censorship" for Bravely Default is adding a little bit of clothes to a character who looks 8 years old.

 

[Michael Tabbut]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

Maybe because your views come off as extremely arrogant. Maybe because you don't back up what your saying with sources or videos that support your arguments. I'm gonna be frank Sung-Hwan, with the attitude you have, you won't make friends here on The Escapist. I will fully admit to finding your opinions distasteful but at the same time I would love to see you grow out of them. This is all I will say on the matter, good day Mr. Hwan.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Let me just make it really clear and obvious: Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it, and how some genres like survival horror are dying, so Resident Evil and Dead Space go in a similar direction to COD. Final Fantasy 13 (not counting its sequels) was a direct product of Square Enix trying to cater to what mainstream gamers like: setpieces and linearity. This is in such startling contrast to XII its almost scary, since that game promoted nothing but total freedom and complex design.

Where do you get the idea that the survival horror market is dying? I must admit I never liked Resident Evil or Dead Space, the former suffering at the hands of developers who don't care about survival horror beyond supposed roots and a fancy paint job who wound up making RE6 and the latter being a case of EA's insistence on being bombastic. That's not much of a case of survival horror dying off as it is EA being EA, read; Bioware. What's killing games today are budgets that could actually buy some countries that inevitably need to see a return of investment achievable only through unrealistic sales expectations.

However, I'd say survival horror is in a better place now than it has ever been. There's been a deluge of them in the indie market and a few notable larger releases. In fact, one of the best experiences in this genre was released a few months ago as a Triple-A movie-licensed game. An Alien licensed game. A franchise heralded by feminists for great portrayal of a female protagonist and issues related to that (more on-the-nose with Cameron but still). If that isn't proof that we're in fairly good hands in that respect, I don't know what is.

For one thing no one on Escapist likes FFXIII and Ben Croshaw along with Jim Sterling tried to boycott the game so I think what you said is kind of invalid.

What? I've never heard of this. Do you mean they criticized it? Is criticizing now boycotting?

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

People have differing opinions for a start. What you've basically asked in confusion (though more likely a shrouded accusation of us lacking intellect given your position on everything else) is why everyone doesn't agree with you just like some other people you spoke to that one time.

 

[Teoes]

I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?

It's not necessarily the amount of time that matters, but the observations made along the way.

Well, see, your confessed attitude in the past has been one of dismay towards those who came into your hobby after you did and therefore know less than you, automatically making their opinions not only worthless but contemptible in your eyes.

But for all the observations you've made in 16 years, think of all the extra observations I've made in the decade I've got on you. Where does that leave your opinions, by the standards you apply to others?

 

[Scow2]

It should be noted 9 is far and wide considered the better game than 7, if not the best game in the series; 10 has a strong following; 11 was fairly well received; 12 is the highest rated FF game ever on GR/MC and it wasn't a fluke as Edge Magazine still considers it one of the greatest games of all time.

The FF7 fans are the problem really. The same whiny, obnoxious fans that are never satisfied and brought FF into the mainstream spotlight.

That still doesn't really mean consistent if a big part of the fanbase (however illlegitimate you consider them) doesn't really like a big part of the series, also despite many of the games do havea strong following (which is pretty impossible to deny) a bunch of still pretty despised by the fanbase. This I should say would make the games polarising, not consistent.

Can't really add much more than pedantry though, since I aren't all too familiar with the series, but JRPG:s heavily influenced by anime aren't really for me.

No I don't consider a large part of the FF fanbase legitimate. There are the ones that will look at the games and SE rationally with fair criticism, and the cancerous plague that always complain and demand a FF7 remake.

In a similar story, there's a more interesting situation with Shin Megami Tensei. The series was a strong niche until Persona 3 and 4 brought it into the spotlight, and the fans brought in by that angle are antagonized so frequently by the core SMT fans they rarely make any noise. That's how I'd like it to be with FF.

So... you want the Final Fantasy VI and VII fans to get so vocal and spiteful to the newer fans of games such as IX and XII until you are forced to shut up? Is that what you're saying? Because that's exactly what you're saying. You are just as much the cancerous plague that you accuse others of being.

I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

I've got in the region of 26 years experience in gaming, does that mean I outrank you or that my opinion is more valid?

It's not necessarily the amount of time that matters, but the observations made along the way.

Well, see, your confessed attitude in the past has been one of dismay towards those who came into your hobby after you did and therefore know less than you, automatically making their opinions not only worthless but contemptible in your eyes.

But for all the observations you've made in 16 years, think of all the extra observations I've made in the decade I've got on you. Where does that leave your opinions, by the standards you apply to others?

Also contempt and derision to those who came into the hobby before him, and are a decrepit 'cancerous plague"

 

[ryukage_sama]

If you want a better explanation for the financial woes of Square Enix, Jim Sterling has some good breakdowns of the situation. Just look at this video that was posted here on the Escapist: [link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9617-Batman-Is-Everything-Wrong-With-Square-Enix[/link]

And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

Or you could have spent 16 years learning all the wrong lessons, just like Square Enix. Besides you're not just arguing observations, you're arguing conclusions based on your observations.

 

[Super Cyborg]

I never liked the idea that anything mainstream lacks originality. Is it for the most part? Yes, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have some original ideas, or that it is even bad. Mainstream is more just taking what is popular and have that as the selling front. Shooters are popular, so there are a lot of them, but some of them can have their own ideas that haven't been used much. Also with so many games, I wonder how original a game can be considered at this point. Whenever an indie/niche game is talked about, I see so many times people are like "it's like if x met y with a little bit of z". It's almost as if there really isn't anything that could be considered original. Now lack of diverse games, whether gameplay or story, is a whole different thing.

As for the SMT fanbase, I never knew it was like that. Maybe because I don't browse the internet that much, but the fans I've seen seem pretty chill. I assume this is another thing you have to go to the dark corners to find.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Mainstream isn't a thing onto itself. It's a adjective. A game is mainstream. Basically what you're saying is "Games being popular is ruining games" which simply isn't true. Now if what you're trying to say is that a lot of AAA gaming companies have really messed up priorities then I think you'll find a lot common ground on this website. A lot of people here dislike the direction Resident Evil, Dead Space and Call of Duty went. But they don't blame the games for being popular. They blame Activision, Capcom and EA for being greedy bastards. (Microstransactions in a sixty dollar game, REALLY EA!?)

However, you cross a bit of a line with that next comment. See, plenty of AAA companies have screwed up priorities, but that doesn't automatically make all AAA games bad. Really I've played most of them, and they've got plenty of polish and solid gameplay. They can be bland a lot of the times but trust me they're nothing compared to what a bad indie game looks like. Not to mention there are actually some pretty damn good AAA games out there. Wolfenstein the New order, Shadow of Mordor, Alien Isolation, Borderlands 2 (Haven't played the Pre-Sequel) Far Cry 3 & 4 just to name a couple of recent ones.

At this point you go off into pure speculation territory. You say that feminists damage gaming without really going into why. And the Bravely Default example is a pretty bad one considering that I guarantee you feminism could've been outlawed and that still would've been censored, western countries are really uncomfortable with sexualized underage girls. If feminists were really as bad as you make them out to be, there would've been a lot more uproar over all the sexualized demons in the Persona/SMT games (Including one demon whose name escapes me that has tits on her head, knees and shoulder). Also, why is it that everytime a localization is censored it's the fault of feminists? There are plenty of people besides them who think there shouldn't be sex in video games, and really only sex-negative feminists in the feminist field argue for censorship, and they've gotten a bad rap from most people, other feminists included.

As for the guy who says he's on my ignore list...he probably did it for one of the many MANY times I get my temper get the better of me...well...in the million to one chance he sees this, I'm sorry.

Also I'm sorry if, no, for when I did lose my temper with you too Sung

 

[CaitSeith]

I think Bravely Default's butchered localization is a strong indication of how much SJWs and feminists control what goes in and out with this industry now.

Localization existed in Square Enix (Squaresoft back then) games since the SNES era! Shiva in FFIII in SNES (well FFVI) was censored. Heck, instead of Pubs, we had Cafes!

I think pandering the mainstream audience can have negative effects in creative freedom; but I think you got the demographic of mainstream gaming slightly wrong. The publisher may say "appealing to a wider audience", but their games clearly show they tried to cater to the people who bought the game/franchise with the most sales out there.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Gaming is the same as what it was in the past. Only thing that is different is the cost to make a game. No company is going to make a multiple million bet on a risky game. There is a lot of creative freedom, and thats in indie developers. I think MS are releasing a game making software for XB1 at some point (unless its been cancelled) which a lot of gamers can use their imagination to create interesting titles. An also titles on PSN/Live like Meatboy, Shovel Knight, Fez and Limbo show that these companies can create interesting games on a smaller budget.

On top of that, you have the amazing stuff modders are creating on the PC and keeping older games alive with new content or reskinning to create something new. Like the rpgs created with the Oblivion/Skyrim official creator kits (cant remember name of it). For every AAA title there are many more overlooked and creative games that go unnoticed. An instead of complaining, we as gamers should be promoting these games so they dont go under the rader.

 

[Erttheking]

So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.

I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.

I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.

That's because Sterling has you under his grip, but don't deny he's a man who makes a living appeasing to what the mainstream crowd of people want to hear. That's how I always saw him, and never had too much of an issue with it. Puppet might be too negative of a term, since I don't know who he serves. Puppetmaster?

I don't know if you ever played DmC: Devil May Cry, but I thought one of its highlights was the plot point where demons controlled mainstream media to literally bend humans to their will.

 

[Erttheking]

So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.

I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.

That's because Sterling has you under his grip, but don't deny he's a man who makes a living appeasing to what the mainstream crowd of people want to hear. That's how I always saw him, and never had too much of an issue with it. Puppet might be too negative of a term, since I don't know who he serves. Puppetmaster?

I don't know if you ever played DmC: Devil May Cry, but I thought one of its highlights was the plot point where demons controlled mainstream media to literally bend humans to their will.

*Rubs head* oh for God's sake...you know one of the classic tactics of silencing people you disagree with is insisting that their arguments have no value, despite giving no logical reason for how you reached this conclusion. Just insist that "those people" are all wrong. I don't even agree with Jim on a lot of things, just some things. But in your book that makes me a puppet. Also, Jim appealing to the mainstream based on what they want to hear? Have you not seen the sheer number of people who disagree with him? Jim makes a career out of saying whatever the Hell he wants to say.

Ok first of all, unless the media involved taking human beings and contorting their bodies to 90 degree angles, you misused the word literally here. Second of all, DMC: Devil May Cry is hardly the first game to explore this concept, it's been in media for nearly a century now, 1984 comes to mind as the most classic example. Finally, if you want to say that I really am being brainwashed by mainstream media, it'd help if you actually backed up your argument with evidence.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

So after thinking overnight I came to a simple decision. Despite Final Fantasy being neckdeep tainted with the mainstream plague, I'll continue to play through the mainline games along with SMT games and keep writing articles about my thoughts and experiences with each game; ignoring what puppets like Jim Sterling like to shove down the unwitting populaces throats, I'll just think for myself and continue to find my own conclusions. If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

I do thank Escapist for making me realize that even though the pollution of mainstream may be too high, there's no reason to just abandon something if it has value like Final Fantasy.

I just...no. Just no. Despite what you might think, Jim Sterling disagreeing with you does not make him a puppet. In fact, people disagreeing with you in general are not puppets. They are not his minions either, because people who happen to agree with Jim Sterling tend to have opinions of their own. Also you, of all people have no right to accuse people of arguing without giving context, as that is one of your biggest problems.

That's because Sterling has you under his grip, but don't deny he's a man who makes a living appeasing to what the mainstream crowd of people want to hear. That's how I always saw him, and never had too much of an issue with it. Puppet might be too negative of a term, since I don't know who he serves. Puppetmaster?

I don't know if you ever played DmC: Devil May Cry, but I thought one of its highlights was the plot point where demons controlled mainstream media to literally bend humans to their will.

*Rubs head* oh for God's sake...you know one of the classic tactics of silencing people you disagree with is insisting that their arguments have no value, despite giving no logical reason for how you reached this conclusion. Just insist that "those people" are all wrong. I don't even agree with Jim on a lot of things, just some things. But in your book that makes me a puppet. Also, Jim appealing to the mainstream based on what they want to hear? Have you not seen the sheer number of people who disagree with him? Jim makes a career out of saying whatever the Hell he wants to say.

Ok first of all, unless the media involved taking human beings and contorting their bodies to 90 degree angles, you misused the word literally here. Second of all, DMC: Devil May Cry is hardly the first game to explore this concept, it's been in media for nearly a century now, 1984 comes to mind as the most classic example. Finally, if you want to say that I really am being brainwashed by mainstream media, it'd help if you actually backed up your argument with evidence.

There's a reason the conspiracy of mainstream brainwashing exists and far predates DmC like you said; it's exactly for the same reasons I think.

My other most defining trait is my great hatred for anything mainstream, in any shape or form. Mainstream media, be it even mainstream in niches, is an endless cycle of controversy kept turning by the founders of society; be it the ?- or other intelligence agencies, I can only speculate who is pulling the strings. The people lured by mainstream media are slaves to consumerism, being easily manipulated to feed the fires of controversy. Infamous concepts such as feminism, censorship, and memes are possibly propagated by our founders to further aid in keeping the fire burning. Everything serves a purpose in ensuring this mysterious cycle lives; while you may see someone like Anita Sarkeesian, as little more than insane, that contempt you feel proves she is fulfilling her purpose as an agent of controversy. I do not know why the cycle exists, and frankly, no ordinary person may know. It could be speculated that mainstream intrigues exist to prevent entropy. After all, humans would fall into a state of mundanity if nothing riled them through living.

Conspiracy theory or not, the subject of a greater evil controlling society through mainstream media is popular in fiction; some even portraying the antagonists as actual demons. This is all spawned from the simple fact that there are too many secrets hidden from us in the world, and people resort to speculating and writing to find certain closure; I have faith in what I believe in, and am satisfied overall?

 

[IceForce]

If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

Are you even being serious with your posts anymore? Because you're doing yourself no favors by making comments like this.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Of course there's a reason the conspiracy theory exists. The question is that if it's a GOOD reason. I mean it's a widely accepted that media influences behavior, but to outright brainwash? Yeah no.

You hate anything mainstream? Anything that's popular? That doesn't make any logical sense, period. You're not hating something for it's overall quality, you're hating it from how popular it is. If I gave you two games of near equal quality, then after you played them I told you one was really popular and the other flew under the radar, it would be irrational for you to hate the popular one. Anita as insane. For the love of God I don't see the hatred everyone has for her? Insane? I find her videos to be dull, boring, and underwhelming, which should probably say a lot about the attitude towards feminism that people can say the most dull and uncontroversial things and people will still label them as extremists. Really with things like that I wonder why any feminists at all bother holding back. And you go off randomly about how people are slaves to mainstream media and slaves to consumerism, once again, without anything to really back it up. Really it just comes off as you saying that you're better for other people because you do things differently from them, which simply isn't true.

No, it's a conspiracy theory, because conspiracy theories have no solid evidence backing them up and only exist because people want them to be true. You just want the concept of a brainwashing media to be true because it would make you right and everyone else wrong. Well, that's not the world we live in.

 

[Story]

If at any point, any one of his minions bothers me with the typical bull with no context or etc, I will simply resort to hurling those really terrifying insults I am quite good at until they flee back to their master.

Are you even being serious with your posts anymore? Because you're doing yourself no favors by making comments like this.

That's pretty much how I feel after reading this whole thread from the background. The OP has made this point more or less in his other posts and even then he is pretty antagonistic but he was becoming a little less so. Then he draws up those conclusions in his posts and suddenly there is an argument revolving Jim. I even agree with some of his points though I think it is a little more complicated than blaming "the mainstream" or "feminists". At the very least I think discussing creativity in the gaming market is a worthy topic. That's all moot though as I feel if I tried to voice my opinion on this thread I'd just be insulted by the OP. He seems to be so headstrong in his ways too so there is no real point in talking about it unless you agree with him completely.

 

[Augustine]

Long-long time ago Square was an innovative company, full of ideas and energy, creating things that people did not know were possible in video games. Old FF blew people's mind way back when. Stuff like "Live A Live" I still consider the most creatively designed JRPG to this day.

Today's Square is not that company. And that's the reason it is not doing well.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

So by your logic a series can only have a bad fanbase if it's popular. Because Dark Souls is a niche game and as a fan of that game I'm not afraid that parts fanbase can be insufferably smug and elitist. You are running off of stereotypes, pure and simple. News flash buddy, everyone complains. Check out the TV Tropes page for SMT IV and see the long laundry list of problems people have with the game. Same with the Dark Souls fanbase and their problems with Dark Souls II, the Suikoden fanbase and their problems with Suikoden IV, the Kingdom Hearts fanbase and their hatred of the idea of Marvel characters being in the game. Plenty of people complained about these, the small size of the fanbase doing absolutely nothing to stop them "whining" as you so elegantly put it. Because fandoms always complain about the games they like People always complain about everything, small fanbases don't stop complaining just because you think they don't.

And I'm gonna be frank, your concept of an ideal fanbase seems to be one that just swallows up everything that they're given without ever complaining about it. Didn't you just get done complaining about a brainwashing mainstream media.

Speaking of which, you gotta pick one. Are "bad" fans whiny brats who are never satisfied or do they just mindlessly consume, because you're arguing both and they kind of contradict each other.