Creative freedom is dying because of the mainstream blight?

[Sung-Hwan]

I absolutely hate throwing around this poisonous term spawned by mainstream influence, but I can't even deny Final Fantasy 13 was an extremely "linear" game centered around combat and set pieces with almost nothing else. It's why Square Enix realized that casual gamers aren't that brain dead and made 13-2 a lot more open, and then LR being absolutely massive.

Then where did all of the other "linear" Final Fantasy games come from...?

Could you be more descriptive with that? Final Fantasy 13 was linear in that it had nothing but its combat going for it. No open world exploration or anything creative; even the post-game content in Gran Pulse is a long series of fights and nothing else.

Final Fantasy X. Please try to tell me with a straight face that FFX wasn't linear. In fact, the fact that FFX was Yoshinori Kitase's previous main Final Fantasy entry (FFXI-FFXII were different directors) has more a reason for FFXIII's linearity than anything else.

I'm just going to assume FFX was carried by the weight of its engaging plot and other minor things to do, as its fandom far and wide exceeds its whiny haters; in fact, Final Fantasy X remastered outsold LR on launch. Ouch.

 

[xaszatm]

I absolutely hate throwing around this poisonous term spawned by mainstream influence, but I can't even deny Final Fantasy 13 was an extremely "linear" game centered around combat and set pieces with almost nothing else. It's why Square Enix realized that casual gamers aren't that brain dead and made 13-2 a lot more open, and then LR being absolutely massive.

Then where did all of the other "linear" Final Fantasy games come from...?

Could you be more descriptive with that? Final Fantasy 13 was linear in that it had nothing but its combat going for it. No open world exploration or anything creative; even the post-game content in Gran Pulse is a long series of fights and nothing else.

Final Fantasy X. Please try to tell me with a straight face that FFX wasn't linear. In fact, the fact that FFX was Yoshinori Kitase's previous main Final Fantasy entry (FFXI-FFXII were different directors) has more a reason for FFXIII's linearity than anything else.

I'm just going to assume FFX was carried by the weight of its engaging plot and other minor things to do, as its fandom far and wide exceeds its whiny haters; in fact, Final Fantasy X remastered outsold LR on launch. Ouch.

You're just going to assume...you haven't played FFX, have you? Actually, what IS your point here? FFX is linear. That is my point. You asked for other examples of linear FF games and I gave it to you. In fact, I would argue that FFXIII is a natural progression of FFX in both story-telling and even in its combat system, and it was because of this that FFXIII had such a critical backlash. Far more than it being because Square wanted to "appeal to the casuals".

 

[Signa]

You know OP, you sound like have a lot of axes to grind. Granted, I have many of the same to grind myself, but you're not presenting any rational arguments about mainstream gaming or how feminism is damaging it. erttheking is on my ignore list because of how I didn't like he has presented himself in the past, and he's still doing a better job of discussing these points than you are.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Just going to throw a bit of common sense the OP's way despite it having no hope of sticking:

Everything comes in peaks and valleys friend. I feel gaming is in a valley at the moment and will peak back up soon enough. Maybe not fast enough to satisfy the current generation who wants instant change without ever realizing that severe swerves of trends don't happen often or last long and tend to cause more destruction than they do good things (though over time and many many years removed one may be able to appreciate the causality of said escalation and the rebuilding wake it leaves but still its not a good thing).

We're in a slump, technology has slowed to a crawl in certain areas and a lot of the old guard are still running things at the top, the youngbloods aren't honestly ready to take over and usher in a new era of prosperity and innovation, but it will happen provided the world's political pressures and social issues don't erupt into societal collapse of violence and terror. Who knows? I have faith that things get better over time and one has to have some modicum of patience else one succumbs to bitterness, cynicism and despair... apathy. All that jazz.

Peaks and valleys friend, peaks and valleys. Patience pays, keep the faith and relax.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

You know OP, you sound like have a lot of axes to grind. Granted, I have many of the same to grind myself, but you're not presenting any rational arguments about mainstream gaming or how feminism is damaging it. erttheking is on my ignore list because of how I didn't like he has presented himself in the past, and he's still doing a better job of discussing these points than you are.

Now that I've calmed down I guess I'll post again. By what you say, yes I have a lot of axes to grind; I post a lot on other websites and people always say I bring up some good points but can't argue for the life of me because I get so enraged it turns to gibberish after a while.

Let me just make it really clear and obvious: Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it, and how some genres like survival horror are dying, so Resident Evil and Dead Space go in a similar direction to COD. Final Fantasy 13 (not counting its sequels) was a direct product of Square Enix trying to cater to what mainstream gamers like: setpieces and linearity. This is in such startling contrast to XII its almost scary, since that game promoted nothing but total freedom and complex design.

If you don't care for creativity or originality and just enjoy the same thing over again, then I guess this isn't an issue though.

Feminists only damage gaming because they exist to promote censorship of art and significantly harm localization from Japan, which does not stand well with someone like me. I'll admit that its not really common that they succeed with their antics, but the fact that censorship does occasionally pass, and how damn hard feminists always try, pisses me off.

 

[small]

I always thought the reason creativity is getting the shaft is because games cost too much too make now. As such, major companies are too scared to take risks, and thus try to copy whatever is popular, and so everything ends up playing like everything else. Then someone takes a risk, it's wildly successful, and for a time things are good, but then the cycle starts again. That's the cycle of logic that I follow anyway.

makes more sense than some vast conspiracy doesnt it., not to mention the games that tend to be released that follow a cookie cutter approach tend to be those with huge budgets trying to mainstream their appeal to recoup the huge budgets.never forget that the big budget game you sit down and play has more input from a suit who doesnt play them and is only interested in money than developers with a unique idea

pc gaming for example is entering a new creative renaissance with indy and mid budget games demonstrating that certain genres and games are completely viable into days market

i wouldnt exactly call the final fantasy games a bastion of unique creativity either, while ive played 7 and 10 i did notice they follow the bioware practice of basically repeating he same character types over and over, which doesnt have to be a negative (i like the bioware games and ff7 was good), not to mention JRPG's used to be the one genre you go to for tight linear story telling but thanks to technology they no longer have that advantage over other games and are frankly starting to focus on graphics rather than actual gameplay, which is also an issue with most AAA publishers.

as for "feminists and sjw's" being the cause.. haha really? and also take off the nostalgia glasses the 2000's were full to the brim with cookie cutter rinse and repeat franchises and games

 

[Rebel_Raven]

... Wait, what? Look, I don't follow feminism, or give much a crap about who says what in the industry (Seriously, I'm not talking about Sarkessian, or who ever else is in a similar boat. I don't care.), but WHAT? How the HELL are SJWs, and Feminists changing anything in gaming at the moment, nevermind over the past few decades where we got whittled down into the lack of creativity that got people upset to begin with???

If the SJWs, and Feminists, and whatever had any say, or real power, I'd have thought the industry would've reflected that by now, and there'd be a lot less complaining from these camps.
Really, the closest thing that has power over the industry is the desire for money, and the "straight white brunette male" checklist that seems prevalent, and even then, money aside, there's not one force that's controlling the industry, or changing it. No group's that powerful.
Rockstar, and Volition don't really give a shit if their games get cencored in some places, they release them uncensored elsewhere.

Even IF, and that's a huge IF SJWs, and Feminists came into power (Again, no force on earth save money and that straight white guy checklist has that sort of near all consuming power), I'd think there'd be a huge change from what we usually get in games leading to MORE creative freedom because we won't have a reliance on putting men in the spotlight, and shoving women into the background, and no reliance on straight characters, and no reliance on white characters, and no reliance on the characters being guys.
I mean do you think

Spoiler: this is all coincidence??

and

I mean, look at all the non-human characters we haven't seen in ages in their own game, like Gex, or Banjo Kazooie, or Donkey Kong, or Spyro (I don't think skylanders counts anymore), or Earth Worm Jim, or Mr. Mosquito, and so forth. The bright, vibrant, cartooney characters we never really see coz of realism, and grimdark dude shit that really stifled creativity. AAA games, and close to it were absurdly more creative when graphics were crappier, really.

Hell, NES games were crazy. The Guardian Legend had a woman lead that turned into a spaceship as she transitioned from Zelda like top down dungeons to top down shooting. Outside of transformers, when have we seen something that wild?

Hell, I think it's time for change. Not to the extreme as a lot of people fear from the extreme ends, but something to get away from the usual stuff these days. We'd at least start seeing different stuff.

/rant

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I think any argument that relies on claims that FFXIII wasn't well-received can be safely ignored here.

For one thing no one on Escapist likes FFXIII and Ben Croshaw along with Jim Sterling tried to boycott the game so I think what you said is kind of invalid.

 

[IceForce]

If the SJWs, and Feminists, and whatever had any say, or real power, I'd have thought the industry would've reflected that by now, and there'd be a lot less complaining from these camps.

Pretty much.

Feminists and SJWs are apparently, simultaneously, a convenient bogeyman for things that MIGHT happen, as well as a convenient scapegoat for things that HAVE ALREADY happened.

 

[IceForce]

Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it,

Just so I'm clear, if a game series reaches a point where it's insanely popular without needing any changes done to it, you expect the devs to change it anyway in the name of "creativity"?

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it.

Because they are bizarre, unfounded and ridiculously biased?

Also, mainstream exposure is what brought about so many of the games you seem to value. Hate it all you want; companies can't make games unless they make money, and they make money by selling lots of games. If the first Final Fantasy game hadn't sold like hotcakes, Squaresoft would've gone under and you wouldn't have gotten any of the other games you value so highly. Your selfish desire to keep all your favorite things to yourself so the "unwashed masses" can't "ruin" them is only self-defeating.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it,

Just so I'm clear, if a game series reaches a point where it's insanely popular without needing any changes done to it, you expect the devs to change it anyway in the name of "creativity"?

Yes? Are you seriously asking if it's okay to sell the same game under full price tags annually?

 

[Basement Cat]

I think any argument that relies on claims that FFXIII wasn't well-received can be safely ignored here.

For one thing no one on Escapist likes FFXIII and Ben Croshaw along with Jim Sterling tried to boycott the game so I think what you said is kind of invalid.

I do believe that you made a declaration:

Last post I'll make for this site, and thankfully for the sake of my health.

I ask you, honor to honor, why you continue to post in threads upon this site when you have declared that you have had enough and shall not do so again?

Apparently your word is devoid of value. Your lack of sincerity has not gone unnoticed. Neither shall it be forgotten.

OT:

The Triple-A system is a bloated swine that needs an enema to recognize that it's eating habits result in poor health.

The Gaming Industry, as always, shall recover. It's all about money. Just follow the money...whomever is paying it.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it.

Because they are bizarre, unfounded and ridiculously biased?

Also, mainstream exposure is what brought about so many of the games you seem to value. Hate it all you want; companies can't make games unless they make money, and they make money by selling lots of games. If the first Final Fantasy game hadn't sold like hotcakes, Squaresoft would've gone under and you wouldn't have gotten any of the other games you value so highly. Your selfish desire to keep all your favorite things to yourself so the "unwashed masses" can't "ruin" them is only self-defeating.

All I'm saying is in its current state, Final Fantasy is fine for being such a big series, but sooner or later the vile audience Square Enix is trying to cater to will be their demise. Just go niche like SMT for the better. Bravely Default's audience is the kind Final Fantasy needs to reach out to; cutting out all the fat of the fanbase for the true fans.

 

[IceForce]

Mainstream in regards to gaming is poisoning because it does not promote creativity; in fact, it demolishes freedom of creativity and art. This is obvious in how Call of Duty never changes its formula but people rush out to buy it,

Just so I'm clear, if a game series reaches a point where it's insanely popular without needing any changes done to it, you expect the devs to change it anyway in the name of "creativity"?

Yes? Are you seriously asking if it's okay to sell the same game under full price tags annually?

If it sells, what's the problem? That's business. Businesses exist to make money.

If and when people stop buying it, then that will likely be the driving force behind changing the game formula.

 

[IceForce]

All I'm saying is in its current state, Final Fantasy is fine for being such a big series, but sooner or later the vile audience Square Enix is trying to cater to will be their demise. Just go niche like SMT for the better. Bravely Default's audience is the kind Final Fantasy needs to reach out to; cutting out all the fat of the fanbase for the true fans.

Okay, I see where you're going with this. You expect companies to cater to the smallest audience and niche fanbases, and cut out their largest market.

Am I to assume you want these companies to go bankrupt? Or do you just simply not understand how businesses work?

 

[Sung-Hwan]

All I'm saying is in its current state, Final Fantasy is fine for being such a big series, but sooner or later the vile audience Square Enix is trying to cater to will be their demise. Just go niche like SMT for the better. Bravely Default's audience is the kind Final Fantasy needs to reach out to; cutting out all the fat of the fanbase for the true fans.

Okay, I see where you're going with this. You expect companies to cater to the smallest audience and niche fanbases, and cut out their largest market.

Am I to assume you want these companies to go bankrupt? Or do you just simply not understand how businesses work?

Sir, ATLUS is not bankrupt. And ATLUS appeals almost entirely towards niche audiences. Square Enix would be fine if they just went in a similar direction and focused on releasing JRPGs on handhelds.

 

[BytByte]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious why this site's community never agrees with me on my views on mainstream media and everything pertaining to it. I might not fully grasp everything quite yet, but other people I've talked to elsewhere do agree on some parts of what I say, like its oppressive effects on creativity from any artistic medium. And I've had over sixteen years with gaming and several years in other mediums to make decent observations.

Here is what I will tell you. You come in and make wild accusations that you believe to be truly evident to yourself, but not to people on this site. Then, instead of trying to understand where they are coming from, you stuff your ears with corn and keep repeating your same points over and over again. And these points boil down to you being better than "mainstream" audiences because you say you're smarter than them (you think this is true, others do not). Whenever you make an accusation about corrupt journalism or feminism, you don't provide any links or substantial information, you just say things that you think are "facts" but are largely debated by people on this site. You don't think you're better than other people, you know it, which is not only subjective but highly pretentious.

Please please please, listen to this. You are not more special than other people because you know more about games than them. Even when talking about those games you know so much about, people can still have different opinions than you, and just because you know more about them or think you are more "informed" it does not make your opinion inherently better.

You come off as smug and superior and extremely ignorant of anything not coming out of your own mouth. I truly hope that some time down the line you change and come back to this site and look at how dismissive and smug you were, and feel bad that you were like that, but also good that you will no longer be like you are now. Otherwise, you are going to miss everything cool and die angry.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

No I don't consider a large part of the FF fanbase legitimate. There are the ones that will look at the games and SE rationally with fair criticism, and the cancerous plague that always complain and demand a FF7 remake.

In a similar story, there's a more interesting situation with Shin Megami Tensei. The series was a strong niche until Persona 3 and 4 brought it into the spotlight, and the fans brought in by that angle are antagonized so frequently by the core SMT fans they rarely make any noise. That's how I'd like it to be with FF.

or how Anitia Sarkeesian desires to twist Mirror's Edge to her agendas now that it is in her creative control.

Going to need a source on that. One that doesn't source that made up nonsense blog post on Destructoid.

As for the rest of it, well I'm with everyone else. There's no decent argument made at all so far.

There are a dozen YouTube videos on this and a petition to actually remove that witch from development of the game. What became of that, I do not know.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to go a bit more direct with you but

YOU BLOODY WHAT MATE?!?!?!

Oh, you don't want your precious games to be brought into the public and "brought down" by the normal people with their feminist critique and more varied viewpoints. Geez you sound like Troy from "Reality Bites": hipster to the extreme and utterly insular to say the lest.

No, creativity is still well and alive in games these days. Guilty Gear Xrd, Gat out of Hell, Under Night In Birth, Blazblue, hell even Wildstar was creative to some extent. Games are alive and well

I think your main issue is that you think that people are unfairly criticizing your games when really they bring up good points

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I always thought the reason creativity is getting the shaft is because games cost too much too make now. As such, major companies are too scared to take risks, and thus try to copy whatever is popular, and so everything ends up playing like everything else. Then someone takes a risk, it's wildly successful, and for a time things are good, but then the cycle starts again. That's the cycle of logic that I follow anyway.

This comment gets all the cookies on the entire sodding internet

Games are an increasingly expensive endeavor and while we may not have a genuine spark from the triple A industry in all but a blue moon with a moon princess descending down to greet us, smaller companies are still doing stuff with less limitations. Hell, Never Alone probably couldn't have come out in the 90's.

Give things time and critique everything that enters your sight.