Dating norms need to change

[TheLoneBeet]

There are exceptions. In my experience:
Some girls will make the first move. It's not common, but it happens.
I've never had a girl ask me out, but it's happened where they've come and said 'hi' and made it obvious they're interested and single and expect me to ask them out.
I've never had a girl pay for the first date. (However, I usually convince my girlfriends to get into a turn-based payment method once the relationship is steady.)
I sometimes get to decide whether the kiss happens. Some girls will go for the kiss and sometimes the guy just doesn't want it to happen.

It's really about the person. Some girls expect the guy to put himself out on a limb like that. Some girls see what they want and go for it. Some guys expect the girl to make the first move and all that. It just depends on the individual.

 

[Jacco]

How often? Never: girls (my generation) are egotistical, pompous, self-fulfilled bitches that wouldn't know the obvious unless it would hit them. With a chair. On a truck.

I love you.

OT: I agree. Its crap that women get to fuck around and completely control the situation in the early stages. It comes from the assumption that all men want is sex all the time and its just not true.

 

[scorptatious]

I guess it's because it's just the social norm for the guy to ask first. Obviously there are various exceptions to this rule, but they are rare.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

It would be nice if women would express their interest more often. Would never help me out, but maybe others could benefit.

 

[Sandernista]

Girls don't make the first move, and if they do that can, weirdly enough, scare some guys off.
Ask a guy out on a date? Well, that's often close to the same thing as making the first move.

That is completely untrue. The number of times I've had this conversation with all my different groups of friends, I have never met a guy who would be turned off by a girl making a move. In fact quite the opposite.

I'm occasionally creeped out by the advances some women make on me. Then again I'm in a relationship and generally only trying to be friendly.

 

[Johnny Impact]

I don't date. After an unbroken string of horrible experiences, I have come to understand that, whatever qualities women are looking for in their men, I possess none of them.

That having been said, here goes.

You lament your lack of control? Women are terrified, in a way you could never understand, of being controlled by a man who won't take no for an answer. Rape is the obvious example but there are many other forms of inappropriate conduct. The custom of the woman retaining control is predicated on the notion that men are bigger, stronger, and generally more aggressive than women, and should not be allowed to do whatever they want with this advantage. I could look up some rape statistics to post but I can't be bothered. The vast, vast majority of the time, women are the victims, not the perpetrators of inappropriate conduct. Giving the woman control is a sign of respect: "My bestial urges require me to throw you down right here on your doorstep and have my way with you, but *I* require my bestial urges to shut the fuck up and show you a little courtesy." It's a courtship ritual, no more involved than those practiced by many animal species. If you don't respect her, why are you with her? If you can't cope with courtship rituals, maybe you shouldn't court?

On paying: I would expect my (hypothetical) woman to go Dutch on any major expenditures. I don't mind treating her to coffee, but the weekend getaway at a ritzy hotel has to be halfsies. Maybe this isn't your experience. If all the women you meet expect you to pay for everything, all the time, you have my condolences. Maybe you should change your search parameters?

On who asks who for the date: I agree the pressure seems to be on the guy. I would love to be approached by a woman. That has never happened to me before (not in seriousness, anyway; see the following). It would be a wonderful boost to my self-esteem and possibly the beginning of a great relationship. On the other hand, every time I have been approached was for a practical joke. And just so we're clear, I don't mean the kind of practical joke your friends play, where no real harm is intended. I mean the kind of nasty, vindictive shit designed to teach the victim there is no such thing as self-esteem. I am now so jaded, if a woman *were* to approach me, I would assume it was another such joke and tell her to piss off. I assume my experience is atypical. Presumably being approached should be sublime.

On "Mr Right": Many women have unrealistic expectations. They want the superhero: endlessly strong, endlessly stable, endlessly patient. They want the guy upon whom they can dump all their emotions, frustrations, and inadequacies, with no thought whatsoever for having to be a stable, supportive human being in return. That would be great, but women don't seem to know that that man doesn't exist. Thus, they pick guys who look and talk like superheroes: the lean, muscled, egotistical jock types. Inevitably, such guys turn out to be imperfect, nothing but disappointments. The frustrating thing for me, and apparently for you too, is women don't seem to learn from the experience. I've seen them almost literally lining up to be abused by particularly heinous examples of this kind of guy. I have to wonder if the ladies are completely oblivious to the train wrecks those guys have made of their last umpteen relationships. So I'm with you on that point....at least as far as that point goes.

HOWEVER, there are two very important counterpoints.

First counterpoint: Not being the "Mr Right" described above is not the same thing as actually being the right guy. You seem to imply that if these women just got their heads on straight they'd realize the jocks aren't where it's at and some other guy (i.e. you) would in fact be the perfect choice. You are not perfect. Get that idea out of your head. Odds are you aren't any more suited to companionship and commitment than any other guy, most jocks included.

Second counterpoint: Men also suffer from unrealistic expectations. You yourself seem to want something that doesn't exist. You say the second date only "brings more problems" and whine about how much it sucks that you don't get to kiss/touch/whatever any time you want. I'm going to repress the urge to call you names. Instead, I ask you to consider that there are guys, myself among them, who would be thrilled, absolutely thrilled just to have a second date, with all its complications included. What do you think a relationship is but a huge set of difficult, time-consuming, occasionally downright nonsensical complications that happens to make you feel mostly good most of the time? If you are not ready to commit some serious time, thought, frustration, and material resources to a girl, why should she be interested in you? Yes, it's fair to expect a little commitment in return for the things you do. But that commitment is and must be mutual. You go out because you enjoy each other's company. You have a wonderful evening. Maybe something else happens and maybe it doesn't. You don't buy a kiss, or a feel, or any other such thing when you pay for a date. No such promise has been made. If you think it has, then you definitely aren't the right guy.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I think you're conflating a few issues here. Women have every right to be concerned about being approached in a situation they're not comfortable with. To suggest though that that logic of 'all men are rapists' carries over into the dating world is a bit much. If you politely approach a woman in a socially acceptable fashion, no one's going to begrudge you. Except possibly any husband or boyfriend she has hanging around.

I don't really see how, though I may be a bit less inhibited about calling out what's become the norm. I agree, it's every woman's right to be concerned, but this concern is often exaggerated. Let's not kid ourselves; "I don't kiss on the first date", "No sex until I'm ready", and "It's too soon" are phrases women have used far more than men. Often these things are said even when the issue hasn't been broached by the male half of the party. My point is really that there are intrinsic disparities between the sexes that favor the "men are dogs/ women have every right" statements we see generally at play.

I will give an example, but it's a bit off topic, though it punctuates things pretty well. Generally, if a man does anything to harm a woman sexually, in a way that inflicts pain, it's regarded as monstrous. Reverse that, and it's a comedic nut-shot.

Sexism plays a large role in western culture, and it's largely slanted against men now. Watch most commercials and women have it together while men are buffoons. Someone doing a dumb stunt, it's men, while women just roll their eyes. There was even a Jack in the Box commercial that had two grown men in a stroller that started whining until the woman gave them food (I think they were tacos). Movies, same, "reality" tv, same, news, same. Apply this mentality to dating and we have an environment of hostility and contempt already at play long before we even manage to make eye contact for the first time.

My female friends have pretty much all agreed with me, though they're less tactful about how they phrase it. It's tough dating, hell even making friends with the opposite sex, especially if you're the male and a stranger.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that those rules some women have are the result of a prejudice against men. In many cases, they're a personal choice for those who believe that more genuine relationships are formed when you don't jump into bed with each other straight away, or even that it's simply more rewarding to build up to these things. Sure, it has the added effect of preventing you from being screwed over by assholes, but I don't think it's fair to argue that these attitudes are the result of an unfair attitude towards men.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd laugh at a woman sexually assaulting a man. Also, I see an equal amount of commercials where the men are the buffoons as I do where the women are thinly veiled sexual objects. Speaking as a man living in Australia, I don't honestly believe that attitudes have come 180 from the previous century and men are now the ones who are the victims of sexism. As much as you can argue that "women have all the rights to deny men anything" I think it's actually a two way street - one that is ignored because it's generally assumed that no man would ever want to deny a woman something like sex, a kiss etc. I personally have exercised those rights on more than one occasion. Dating is, and always should be, about mutual consent: that means that as soon as either party is unhappy with anything, it has to stop. It's not simply about women having all the power.

 

[Nickolai77]

*snips*

You know what really pisses me off about your post?

The fact that your probably right.

It took me quite a few years to "get it" (probably because i was socially retarded teenager 5-6 years ago), but to get a girlfriend a guy has to be confident, commanding, assertive, and all these things because of evolutionary biology. Girls find a tall guy who's physically strong and socially confident attractive because she knows he'll protect her.

...No? Why would you think this?
Its not "Oh, I'm a Girl! I need a Man to protect me!"
Its "Hey, this guy looks like he has his shit together. Great, a relationship with him would be about spending time with each other and having fun instead of having to play the mindgames of a guy with tons of insecurities and anxiety issues."

Women always get painted as being the ones who are emotional, and illogical and who read waaay too far into things, but that's a human trait, and women are just as disinterested in dealing with someone who refuses to accept and address their personal issues as men are...
Unless one is really so naive as to mistake someone's insecurities and problems with "endearing gender traits."
And then we're right back to someone blaming society and the opposite sex for why they always pick bad partners.

Alright, sorry for being so blunt, i was feeling ratty last night. But i do think there are evolutionary aspects behind dating behaviour and certainly evolutionary aspects behind physical attraction. It's why guy's who get into the most relationships also tend to be alpha-males, leaders within their social circle, and why the word "confidence" keeps cropping up in every single relationship advise thread.

Btw, there are many guy's with insecurities and anxiety issues, even the seemingly confident alpha males have anxiety issues, i know that. Likewise, there are guy's who are not confident nor assertive when it comes to relationships who don't have anxiety issues. "Nice guys" just tend not to get noticed because they lack the above described traits, not always because they have mental issues.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

Forget the "dating" scene and just hang out with your friends, I've never once been on a date like you have described, its always been:

1: Hang out with mutual friends.
2: Establish a bit of a connection
3: Start talking to them without the others being involved.
4: Tell them you find them attractive but make it as indirect as possible (important)
5: ????
6: Profit
7: Go from hopeless with girls nerd to utter man-whore
8: Regret your whoreish ways
9: Start looking for someone you are genuinely happy with.

This is sort of turning into my life story... but for the record the vast majority of the girls I have been *ahem* involved with have come on to me and honestly most of them deserve better.

you sound exactly like my friend Russ.

Russ?

Is that you?

I don't think so... unless there is some freaky timey-wimey stuff going on.

Or I have a split personality and can be in two places at once...

 

[Beliyal]

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Ok, I found this interesting, a few points I would like to pick up on.

Before I continue, I would like to point out that pretty much all of my experience is from cold-approach pick-up. In other words, I rarely date girls in my social circle. Most of the girls I date have never been my friends, the first time I meet them is on the street, the second time I meet them is on a date. I realise that this gives me a skewed perception of dating, but I've dated upwards of 20 girls in the last few months (saying that, a lot of them were single coffee dates that didn't go anywhere). When doing it my way, I don't have the luxury of time. If I meet a girl and don't at least get her contact details, chances are I'll never see her again.

Now in response to your post. Some of these are quite subtle distinctions, ones which I didn't really think of until reading your post.

Firstly, there is a difference between being in control and being controlling.
Being in control is a positive trait. It's having a clear idea of what you want, having the know-how to get it and having the confidence to put those plans into action. I would go so far as to say that this is one of the few universally attractive traits. Some girls, as you say, like shy nerdy guys, but I'm going to suggest that guys lacking this quality is the number one reason why threads like this exist.
Being controlling is a negative trait. It results from a lack of confidence or insecurity. If a guy is controlling, chances are its because its that he believes that the girl he has doesn't want him. He considers other men a threat. He feels the best way to keep the girl is, metaphorically, on a leash.
I have no insecurities about a girl having lots of male friends or enjoying her time away from me. I would even let her have other sexual partners if she felt comfortable with giving me the same privilege.

Secondly, I would like to say that by no means do I consider myself macho. I'm not a gym freak, I read lots of books, I study maths, I hate clubbing, it's been a while since I've been drunk. I don't consider macho-ness important in the light of true masculinity.
I think this is a trait that can take a long time to cultivate but is essential in realising your true potential as a man. I only consider myself part way towards this goal. A truly masculine man should be courteous, always have the woman's needs in mind and consider satisfying her his primary goal. He should be upfront, straightforward and unapologetic about his actions. He should be honest and dependable. He should also be in control.
There is no reason a man can't be both masculine and romantic. It depends whether the romantic element comes from a position of strength or weakness. If a guy takes a girl out for an expensive meal because he is thinking "hey, maybe if I do THIS then she will finally put out!", then being romantic is a negative quality.
I'm not rich enough to afford to take women out to fine restaurants. If I was however, it would just be an extension of my lifestyle. The frame is "I eat in fine restaurants, I would enjoy taking a girl there and she would enjoy my company", not "oh boy, I've got a date with a nice girl, I better impress her". If I was a rich businessman for example, it would just come off as being incredibly cheap to insist that she paid for her share of the meal.
I'd like to clarify that I don't generally pay for dates and they usually just involve going for coffee. Dates don't need to be anything big or impressive. It's not my job to impress a girl.

Thanks for the reply! I get what you really mean now and it's fine by me. I mean, some people are just like that and they enjoy it. I sure wouldn't be rude to refuse when a man wants to pay for dinner and it really means something to him. If a man is "normal" and has that chivalry as his personality, I wouldn't mind; it's only the extremes that really bother me and I've seen my fair share of those (mostly from talks with my friends and seeing their boyfriends). Some common courtesy is necessary, from both men and women.

The problem is when men are forced to behave according to those norms even when they can't (mentally, physically, socially, economically) and are then degraded by society. I don't think all men should stop paying for dates, but I believe those that are generally not dominant should not be laughed at by society (and in return, dismissed by women because women are taught to look for some other types of men). If by any chance I end up being richer than my boyfriend/husband, I wouldn't want him to feel unworthy or threatened because he can't pay for something and because I earn more money (or to feel less of a man because I asked him out and not the opposite). If it's the other way around (he pays, he asks out), I also have nothing against it, as long as it's not some machoism or something like that. That would completely make me lose my interest ("I am a man, I will pay!"). If it's like you described, then I'm fine with it. I'm just sad when I see extremely interesting guys who think less of themselves because they are not alpha males; they really shouldn't be thinking that, especially not because society said so (after abiding norms that all come from the olden times when the other way was completely impossible). And same for women who have confidence and dominance, but are shunned by others if they act first (and it usually ends up as ridiculing the man she asked out because he "allowed" himself to be "ruled" by a woman). What I'm getting at is; I'd like everyone to be allowed to be what they are, regardless of gender. I'm a bit of an idealist (and optimist), yes.

 

[esperandote]

Because guys want it more that women.

You sir, are an idiot.

I don't see why. I'm tempted to say that so are you.

You made a fairly common, and completely stupid generalisation about the human psyche. It's like you're 14, and have no idea about the real world. Go on, quote some more, hackneyed, cliches, without bothering to think, or look up any information about the subject.

Alright, at least im not out there calling people an idiot left and right wich ironically makes you a bigger idiot. If it is fairly common it's because a lot of people think the same way besides the OP opened the door for generalizations so call him an idiot too. I have idea about the world, that's why I said that guys want to date or have gf more often/intensely than women. I'm saying that because that's what i notice more often not that because the case 100.0000000000% of the times. Stop being so literall and an ass.

 

[Icehearted]

Spoiler: cup-o-snip

I think you're conflating a few issues here. Women have every right to be concerned about being approached in a situation they're not comfortable with. To suggest though that that logic of 'all men are rapists' carries over into the dating world is a bit much. If you politely approach a woman in a socially acceptable fashion, no one's going to begrudge you. Except possibly any husband or boyfriend she has hanging around.

I don't really see how, though I may be a bit less inhibited about calling out what's become the norm. I agree, it's every woman's right to be concerned, but this concern is often exaggerated. Let's not kid ourselves; "I don't kiss on the first date", "No sex until I'm ready", and "It's too soon" are phrases women have used far more than men. Often these things are said even when the issue hasn't been broached by the male half of the party. My point is really that there are intrinsic disparities between the sexes that favor the "men are dogs/ women have every right" statements we see generally at play.

I will give an example, but it's a bit off topic, though it punctuates things pretty well. Generally, if a man does anything to harm a woman sexually, in a way that inflicts pain, it's regarded as monstrous. Reverse that, and it's a comedic nut-shot.

Sexism plays a large role in western culture, and it's largely slanted against men now. Watch most commercials and women have it together while men are buffoons. Someone doing a dumb stunt, it's men, while women just roll their eyes. There was even a Jack in the Box commercial that had two grown men in a stroller that started whining until the woman gave them food (I think they were tacos). Movies, same, "reality" tv, same, news, same. Apply this mentality to dating and we have an environment of hostility and contempt already at play long before we even manage to make eye contact for the first time.

My female friends have pretty much all agreed with me, though they're less tactful about how they phrase it. It's tough dating, hell even making friends with the opposite sex, especially if you're the male and a stranger.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that those rules some women have are the result of a prejudice against men. In many cases, they're a personal choice for those who believe that more genuine relationships are formed when you don't jump into bed with each other straight away, or even that it's simply more rewarding to build up to these things. Sure, it has the added effect of preventing you from being screwed over by assholes, but I don't think it's fair to argue that these attitudes are the result of an unfair attitude towards men.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd laugh at a woman sexually assaulting a man. Also, I see an equal amount of commercials where the men are the buffoons as I do where the women are thinly veiled sexual objects. Speaking as a man living in Australia, I don't honestly believe that attitudes have come 180 from the previous century and men are now the ones who are the victims of sexism. As much as you can argue that "women have all the rights to deny men anything" I think it's actually a two way street - one that is ignored because it's generally assumed that no man would ever want to deny a woman something like sex, a kiss etc. I personally have exercised those rights on more than one occasion. Dating is, and always should be, about mutual consent: that means that as soon as either party is unhappy with anything, it has to stop. It's not simply about women having all the power.

You may think what you like, it doesn't change that it's true.

As for assault, a few examples off the top of my head.

Spoiler: Reverse the roles of male 2 and female and that's implied sexual assault/possibly attempted rape

Spoiler: About 1:35, 2:02, reverse the roles of Kutcher and Diaz that's physical and sexual assault

Spoiler: Boyfriend into girlfriend and mom into dad..... how sexy when dad makes and overtly sexual pass at his son's teenage girlfriend, mmm?

....and that last one even says funniest commercial...*sigh*

 

[the Dept of Science]

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Thanks for the reply! I get what you really mean now and it's fine by me. I mean, some people are just like that and they enjoy it. I sure wouldn't be rude to refuse when a man wants to pay for dinner and it really means something to him. If a man is "normal" and has that chivalry as his personality, I wouldn't mind; it's only the extremes that really bother me and I've seen my fair share of those (mostly from talks with my friends and seeing their boyfriends). Some common courtesy is necessary, from both men and women.

The problem is when men are forced to behave according to those norms even when they can't (mentally, physically, socially, economically) and are then degraded by society. I don't think all men should stop paying for dates, but I believe those that are generally not dominant should not be laughed at by society (and in return, dismissed by women because women are taught to look for some other types of men). If by any chance I end up being richer than my boyfriend/husband, I wouldn't want him to feel unworthy or threatened because he can't pay for something and because I earn more money (or to feel less of a man because I asked him out and not the opposite). If it's the other way around (he pays, he asks out), I also have nothing against it, as long as it's not some machoism or something like that. That would completely make me lose my interest ("I am a man, I will pay!"). If it's like you described, then I'm fine with it. I'm just sad when I see extremely interesting guys who think less of themselves because they are not alpha males; they really shouldn't be thinking that, especially not because society said so (after abiding norms that all come from the olden times when the other way was completely impossible). And same for women who have confidence and dominance, but are shunned by others if they act first (and it usually ends up as ridiculing the man she asked out because he "allowed" himself to be "ruled" by a woman). What I'm getting at is; I'd like everyone to be allowed to be what they are, regardless of gender. I'm a bit of an idealist (and optimist), yes.

My disagreement with this post is that I believe that the whole notion of "just being yourself" is a very confused notion.
The person I am now is pretty much indistinguishable from the person I was 2 years ago. I used to be a very shy person. Less than a year ago, I wasn't very popular, I was a virgin, had never had a girlfriend (or even been on a date) and could count the girls that I had kissed on one hand. If you want some examples even more extreme than my own, do a Google search of the names "Adam Lyons" and "Richard La Ruina".
I feel that there is very little about anyone's personality that is unchangable. Some people are naturally disposed to one type of behavior or another, but through a little hard work, things can be changed.
I don't consider social skills to be that far removed from, say, fitness or knowledge. If you eat healthy and go to the gym, you get fitter. If you read a lot of books, you grow mentally. Similarly, social skills are trained, honed and improved.
I didn't like the situation that I was in, so I put some effort in and turned it around. It wasn't an easy process. It took hard work and heartbreak, but I'm a better person from it.

However, thinking about it, I will say this. In a strange way, I am starting to agree with the original post. I think he came to the conclusion for all the wrong reasons, out of a sense of entitlement ending in bitterness.
The way that I agree with it is this: women have the right to control their own happiness.
If a woman likes a guy and he isn't making the first move, then I think that she has every right to initiate if she believes it will bring her happiness. I think its quite sad that it has to be like that. Its the result of men having lost their strong male role models. However, its the world that we live in now and the woman shouldn't sit around waiting for the man (or men) to change in order to find happiness.
On the flip side however, I don't think any guy has the right to complain if the source of his failure with women is just that he isn't willing to put in the time and effort to become better with women and improve himself. We are all in control of our own happiness, so we should never get bitter towards some external source if we are unhappy.

Btw, I get a lot of my philosophy from this guy:

 

[TorqueConverter]

Men should behave masculine and women should behave feminine in matters of love and sex. Men behaving feminine and treating women as if they are men is a cancer to relationships. Asking a women out on a date and paying for the evening are masculine acts. I've gotten nothing but approval from women when I pay for the evening out or behave like a confident man in general. I've never met a women who enjoyed paying for a meal or having to make the first move on a man. These same women have found my behavior refreshing.

I don't understand the issue here. It's not some sort of evil social norm or gender roles, but instinct. Feminism is fantastic as it allowed women to no longer be treated like second class citizens, however in matters of love and sex its best to behave men and women. Women will drop very obvious hints if they want you, and want you to make the fist move.

I really don't want to sit here and speak on behalf of women, so can some escapist women comment on whether or not they prefer to make the first move? A women's perspective would be nice.

 

[Beliyal]

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My disagreement with this post is that I believe that the whole notion of "just being yourself" is a very confused notion.
The person I am now is pretty much indistinguishable from the person I was 2 years ago. I used to be a very shy person. Less than a year ago, I wasn't very popular, I was a virgin, had never had a girlfriend (or even been on a date) and could count the girls that I had kissed on one hand. If you want some examples even more extreme than my own, do a Google search of the names "Adam Lyons" and "Richard La Ruina".
I feel that there is very little about anyone's personality that is unchangable. Some people are naturally disposed to one type of behavior or another, but through a little hard work, things can be changed.
I don't consider social skills to be that far removed from, say, fitness or knowledge. If you eat healthy and go to the gym, you get fitter. If you read a lot of books, you grow mentally. Similarly, social skills are trained, honed and improved.
I didn't like the situation that I was in, so I put some effort in and turned it around. It wasn't an easy process. It took hard work and heartbreak, but I'm a better person from it.

I agree with this, definitely. People change a lot during their life and it's foolish to deny yourself those changes. However, it's also foolish to change only to please others, while you yourself are perfectly fine with who you are. If you're not fine with it, then obviously you have to work on yourself. And that's not only normal, but necessary.

I agree with the rest of the post too so I'll just cut it out.

I really don't want to sit here and speak on behalf of women, so can some escapist women comment on whether or not they prefer to make the first move? A women's perspective would be nice.

It depends on the person. Just as with men, same thing with women. I have friends who want a man to make the move, and I also have friends who are perfectly fine and capable with making the first move themselves.

Also, it's not really that exclusive. Sometimes we feel more confident and we are the ones that move first. Sometimes... not so much, and we'd like if someone else did the deed first.

Personally, I'm something like that. I can make the first move, but I don't necessary always want to. About paying; if the man doesn't insist, I'll pay for myself and won't think anything bad about the man. If he really, really wants to pay for me, then fine. But I'd also like to return the favour once.