Dating norms need to change

[Altorin]

If you were a satin bowerbird you could just woo women by showing them your rad collection of blue shit.

*sigh* Yeah... being a human being is hard. Animal courtship rituals are so much easier.

no they aren't. The very idea of evolution through natural selection dictates that ALL courtships, in every species, are fucking difficult as hell. Some animals kill for mates, others are extremely picky about weird things, and if you don't have those weird things, you are absolutely out of the game. And most of those weird things are physical features.

If you think HUMANS are shallow when it comes to appearances, those same birds are RIDICULOUSLY shallow.

edit: it occurs to me that you were perhaps being facetious.

In that case *offers a pint*

 

[Kelz0r]

Hmm, I'm tasting a lot of bitterness.

I met my girlfriend because she overheard me complaining loudly about Spiderman: One More Day and came over to talk about it. Our first day was at my house to watch Star Wars.

Love doesn't have to happen the way Hollywood tells you - and rarely does.

I tried the same thing your girlfriend did, sort of. I tried to interact with a guy who was with friends talking about Skyrim. I decided to chime in because I'm very interested in it too.

So it goes like:

Me: "Oooh, Skyrim! I'm so psyched for that game. Did you guys play Oblivion?"

Guys: "o______o"

Me: "...Kay."

Utter failure. I mean, that's just one instance and not enough to discourage me, but a lot of times I think guys are full of it when they say they want a girl to approach them.

 

[Altorin]

Hmm, I'm tasting a lot of bitterness.

I met my girlfriend because she overheard me complaining loudly about Spiderman: One More Day and came over to talk about it. Our first day was at my house to watch Star Wars.

Love doesn't have to happen the way Hollywood tells you - and rarely does.

I tried the same thing your girlfriend did, sort of. I tried to interact with a guy who was with friends talking about Skyrim. I decided to chime in because I'm very interested in it too.

So it goes like:

Me: "Oooh, Skyrim! I'm so psyched for that game. Did you guys play Oblivion?"

Guys: "o______o"

Me: "...Kay."

Utter failure. I mean, that's just one instance and not enough to discourage me, but a lot of times I think guys are full of it when they say they want a girl to approach them.

They do (generally, maybe that guy didn't), they're just shocked whenever it happens.

If it's any consolation, if it were me, I'd totally have talked to you about Skyrim. I'm not ascared of girls that talk to me, just the ones that don't. I imagine there's a large block of guys with my mindset out there, so keep on truckin'.

 

[Nudu]

She controls if and when you get to touch her

You know, maybe that just came out wrong, but that part I don't think needs to change.

 

[the Dept of Science]

This date, although you've done all the hard work... she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Here lies the problem in your attitude.

The only realm in which I believe that feminism doesn't apply is in dating. In this realm, we are hard wired to find certain things attractive, which can't be undone by any amount of logic or social conditioning.
One of those things is that the guy should be in control. While a girl does decide whether she reciprocates your actions, you should be making the first move in every situation. You should be the one to approach her, the one to communicate that you are interested, the one who asks her out and the one that kisses her. If you sit around thinking "man, that girl is cute, I hope that she asks me out", you are acting like a pussy.
Dance is the worlds oldest mating ritual, and there is not a single partnered dance in the world where the girl takes the lead. Ballroom, latin, swing. In every one the guy is in charge, because when it comes to sex, that is his rightful position. His job is to control her and there is nothing a woman finds sexier than a man who is in control.*

You are sitting there thinking that that doesn't sound fair, because you have this impression that an attractive woman doesn' put any work into finding the right guy.
That's just plain wrong. Compare your average women's magazine (eg. Cosmo) and your average men's magazine (eg. Nuts). Cosmo is stocked full of articles about how to find, attract and keep "Mr Right".
You know why that is. Because a lot of the men they date turn out to be not ideal men. Maybe they aren't sweet and caring, maybe they aren't that interesting.
Nuts is just like "Hey, your a man, keep being awesome! Here's some pictures of motorbikes and tits".

Where are the "Mr Right"s then? Well... there isn't that much of them around. You may think you are a sweet caring guy, but that just isn't enough. Being sweet and caring counts for shit if you are a massive nerd who spends long hours playing videogames. Its not an attractive lifestyle. It also counts for shit if you have no balls and sit around complaining that it isn't the girls that make the first move.
You may have noticed that attractive girls have a tendency to date guys who you probably think are twats. Well, yea, they may not be as sweet and caring as the girls would like, but they are the guys with confidence, who actually go out there and put themselves on the line. They put themselves in situations where they meet lots of women, they get a decent amount of experience with women and they generally have enough redeeming qualities so that they seem like a better option than the no-balls nerds they could date.

*edit: rereading that, it sounds like I'm encouraging rape, in a sort of "go for it, whether she wants it or not".
That's not what I'm saying. When I say "be in control" I refer to initiating actions. The girl has control over whether she reciprocates. If she doesn't reciprocate, it means YOU'VE DONE SOMETHING WRONG. If you are upfront and straightforward about your intentions, take her on a date, build attraction and sexual tension, then she will reciprocate your actions. If you take her on a shit date and act like a pussy, then she has every right to refuse to kiss you. It's your fault not hers.

 

[Blind Sight]

I'm more focused on the problem of having to cover everything in a relationship.

Anyone else have this problem? The girl expects you to pay for everything? I'm currently dating someone who doesn't do that, I'm lucky, but in my experience I've found there's a lot of women who expect men to pay for everything.

 

[Fearzone]

Regarding the OP, it is rare that I read a post so utterly misconceived I don't know where to start.

You are speaking of women as you want them to be in some fantasy world of yours. You will need to accept them as they are.

Yes, in real relationships, being a woman is totally imba. That is all. Good luck!

It is a system driven by our fundamental instincts, refined by evolution over eons, and while it may be frustrating and overwhelming and hard to figure out, it doesn't suck.

 

[hailfire]

this comment almost made me shit my pants of fear. you want to change the dating system! it's the only damn societal norm that hasn't been completely destroyed and you want to change it? news flash, the fifties was awesome. with the exception of sexism and racism, everything that came from the fifties was awesome as well.

I get the feeling you don't like the dating system because you are either really horny or really shy. maybe both. after all, only a pussy would hate a system where you have total control over who you ask out and when; a system where you make the first move; and a system where you get to be the strong indepentent one and she has to be the relient meek one. as for the horny thing, i got that from the fact that you said she shouldn't have the right to tell you not to touch or kiss her. if that's what you meant that that's pretty messed up, but if you just meant you wanted that right too, than you're probably gay, because i don't know any man who would reject a kiss from a cute girl.

grow up and be a man. the system is designed for men and women to fill the roles they're good at, so if you don't like it, it's probably because you're not a man.

 

[Crazy]

You're absolutely right! These silly traditions mean nothing! I think if we ask them out they should say yes no matter what! They have boyfriend/girlfriend? Three-way! Not "ready"? They'll be ready after the first night! Make it happen, society!

 

[Altorin]

this comment almost made me shit my pants of fear. you want to change the dating system! it's the only damn societal norm that hasn't been completely destroyed and you want to change it? news flash, the fifties was awesome. with the exception of sexism and racism, everything that came from the fifties was awesome as well.

I get the feeling you don't like the dating system because you are either really horny or really shy. maybe both. after all, only a pussy would hate a system where you have total control over who you ask out and when; a system where you make the first move; and a system where you get to be the strong indepentent one and she has to be the relient meek one. as for the horny thing, i got that from the fact that you said she shouldn't have the right to tell you not to touch or kiss her. if that's what you meant that that's pretty messed up, but if you just meant you wanted that right too, than you're probably gay, because i don't know any man who would reject a kiss from a cute girl.

grow up and be a man. the system is designed for men and women to fill the roles they're good at, so if you don't like it, it's probably because you're not a man.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry or just explode into a radiant burst of colors the spell out WHAT THE FUCK? in the sky.

 

[Spectral Dragon]

I guess it's the norm for men to be more dominant in the dating scene. Doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing, but it limits us in a way. We should have equality, but we have only a close enough illusion. Some like it when their partner is dominant, so let them find one who suits them.

It probably never will be equal, but if you find something that suits you, tha should be enough. No one telling you that's a bad thing just because it's not traditional. It's your life, damn it, fuck whoever you please! I'm not exactly dominant in my relationship, but as long as there's communication going, it's all well. I'm not going to tell you there's a right way for everyone. Find your own and don't condemn others. Shouldn't be harder than that.

If you want to do something, and the other doesn't, then don't. If you both want to, who cares who starts it?

Whoever feels like paying/taking the first step should. Not all guys are confident enough, and some girls make more money. Deal with it or find someone else if that isn't your cup of tea.

 

[SillyBear]

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it?

Nope, not at all.

Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.

Nothing about this is unique to males. At all.

Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.

This is unique to males, I agree. But you're over thinking it. If a girl likes you, she won't care. If she really does care about how much money you spend and what activities you've arranged - then she's not someone you should be even going on a date with.

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

What? You don't like the fact that we females get to decide when you kiss us? You'd prefer to just be able to swoop in whenever the fuck you want?

What's your point here? It sounds like you want us to act like sluts.

Also, I might add the fact that men are fully in control of this too. They are also in control of when they get touched. If they don't like it they don't have to do it.

How often does a girl make the first move?

Quite often. Especially with socially awkward men. She might not be the one to actually ask "Let's go to a movie" but she is the one who has put in all the effort and time to get the male to the point where he is able to say that without collapsing in a fit. You're viewing things far too simple.

How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?

I've been with my partner for five years, and I ask him out to stuff just as often as he asks to things.

How often does a girl pay solely for the date?

Not very often. This is just a hang over from the past where men where the ones who made the money.

How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? Males don't have control over their actions when a girl tries to kiss them? What? How insecure are you?

I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up

Ah, here we go. A "nice guy". Haha. 90% of the "nice guys" I know are manipulative, quiet, boring, anti social and incredibly under confident and insecure. Call me crazy, but I don't find that attractive. Anyone who labels himself as a "nice guy" makes me really, really cautious.

and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.

Oh bullshit. Women have lower standards of physical appearance in their partner than men do.

--

To be honest, this whole post just makes you sound incredibly whiney and ignorant to a lot of things. Stop crying about it and just do it.

You want to know what really sucks? Nine months of pregnancy and child birth. And you want to complain about the fact that you have to pay for dinner?

Hah.

I apologise if I sound harsh here, I have no intentions to - but I want to lay it down like it is.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

Girls don't make the first move? Really? Tell that to my wife. If it wasn't for her talking to me, then inviting me out to her house to hang out, we'd never have been together. I wasn't looking for anyone at the time, trying to concentrate on getting other things in my life straight and she walked up to me, out of the blue and started talking to me. Also I've had multiple contacts with women in the past (prior to my wife) initiating relations. So it does happen, and more frequently than you might think.
Things to take into consideration... Do you dress to attract or do you dress in a fashion that might scare off potential s/o's? Do you exude confidence, meaning are you social and easy around strangers or are you a wallflower who waits around for someone to talk to you first?
Chances are, if you're just sitting around waiting for someone to make the first move, you're never going to get it because most people aren't interested in someone who doesn't seem to be interested in being social in the first place.
Its a common misconception that women don't make the first move by people who don't even go out of there way to talk to others. Try initiating conversations with women you probably don't have any interest in, just to talk to them. Maybe that potential mate you're seeking who will "make the first move" will see you're comfortable around others and even enough to initiate conversations with someone you're not really interested in just to be social... Confidence in yourself goes a long way, and being an introvert usually turns a lot of people off from initiating contact.
I've got a lot of "dates" because I was constantly socializing with others and had women I wasn't even paying attention to come up to me and start the process, without provocation. So there is a good precedent for it. The problem is you most likely.

 

[irishda]

As others have said, you certainly could have worded it better, but I can see where you're coming from. There are a lot of rules in dating and relationships regarding gender stereotypes that are very annoying, especially the ones that seem to be quite deeply ingrained in peoples' minds. I get rather angry when someone says they believe in equality but then think men have to make the first move, pay and ask the lady out and they don't see how those two statements contradict each other in any way. I suppose the only thing we can do about it is disregard the stupid rules, although I can tell you that you'll certainly alienate a few people in doing so.

That's because women are programmed to seek the alpha male. Most women are looking for a man who
A: Has the balls to ask a woman out/make the first move
B: Has the economic stability to pay for a date

It's got nothing to do with stereotypes of equality, it's just a man exhibiting the qualities that a woman wants.

 

[Zaverexus]

Reading me carefully to decide if its ok? Fine. Allowing me the same privalages? Fine. Making her body a sacred temple for which i have to carefully get permission to touch her hand while mine has no rules whatsoever? A bit disconcerting. Im not that bothered, its ok, and regardless of social norms im very carefull not to overstep my bounds or offend, and for the most part neither is she. Occasionally this assumption shows though. The assumption im 100% ok with everything all the time. Right or not sometimes i wish i had the right to choose.

It's a double standard I guess in that men are assumed to always like it or something. I doubt that, but there's only one way you'll get that to change. (Assuming you want it to.)

Yeah, I have never seen that so much as a "double standard" as that I don't know any guys who would be against physical contact whereas I have known girls with varying limits. Its just respect for a girl's level of comfort to not immediately have your hands all over her.

OT:
It's just how it works I guess? It depends who is involved in the relationship.
With my girlfriend the first move (and subsequent date) was more of a back-and-forth. We talked, we exchanged numbers, we talked and eventually a chain of banter just led to (paraphrased) "[something about a] relationship" "is that what we have" "I dont know, is it?" "yes".
She hasn't payed solely for a date. I pay for her sometimes, sometimes she pays for herself, no big deal. My general policy is that if the cashier asks if its together I will say yes and pay.
With kissing and physical contact too it has been a trade off. I think I kissed her the first time, but we were both pretty close. I tend to err on the side of caution past that, so she will help me along sometimes, and sometimes I take the initiative.

When you're both really close everything becomes a trade off, no one person has to be in control. Relationships are a give-and-take, or a give-and-give.

 

[BlazeRaider]

Evolution wise that's how its gonna be.

Women have a finite amount of children they can give birth to, meaning it is in their best interest to be conservative and only settle for the best partners they can find to ensure offspring will survive, men are only limited by the amount of women willing to partner with them so it is in there interest to sire as many offspring as possible, and they have as such adapted an aggressive attitude to finding mates. This system is still pretty much in place despite our technological and social advances allowing us to supercede many other previously natural behaviours and is unlikely to change until women stop being the gender to exclusively give birth, which doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Welcome to nature, this is the way it works

This. Also, people like today to be mostly like yesterday. Nothing's changing.

Because guys want it more that women.

You sir, are an idiot.

 

[esperandote]

Because guys want it more that women.

You sir, are an idiot.

I don't see why. I'm tempted to say that so are you.

 

[CODE-D]

I think you why is it so hard to get hot girls. And your right, they hold the power, cause theyre hot and the know it.

 

[Beliyal]

This date, although you've done all the hard work... she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Here lies the problem in your attitude.

The only realm in which I believe that feminism doesn't apply is in dating. In this realm, we are hard wired to find certain things attractive, which can't be undone by any amount of logic or social conditioning.
One of those things is that the guy should be in control. While a girl does decide whether she reciprocates your actions, you should be making the first move in every situation. You should be the one to approach her, the one to communicate that you are interested, the one who asks her out and the one that kisses her. If you sit around thinking "man, that girl is cute, I hope that she asks me out", you are acting like a pussy.
Dance is the worlds oldest mating ritual, and there is not a single partnered dance in the world where the girl takes the lead. Ballroom, latin, swing. In every one the guy is in charge, because when it comes to sex, that is his rightful position. His job is to control her and there is nothing a woman finds sexier than a man who is in control.

You are sitting there thinking that that doesn't sound fair, because you have this impression that an attractive woman doesn' put any work into finding the right guy.
That's just plain wrong. Compare your average women's magazine (eg. Cosmo) and your average men's magazine (eg. Nuts). Cosmo is stocked full of articles about how to find, attract and keep "Mr Right".
You know why that is. Because a lot of the men they date turn out to be not ideal men. Maybe they aren't sweet and caring, maybe they aren't that interesting.
Nuts is just like "Hey, your a man, keep being awesome! Here's some pictures of motorbikes and tits".

Where are the "Mr Right"s then? Well... there isn't that much of them around. You may think you are a sweet caring guy, but that just isn't enough. Being sweet and caring counts for shit if you are a massive nerd who spends long hours playing videogames. Its not an attractive lifestyle. It also counts for shit if you have no balls and sit around complaining that it isn't the girls that make the first move.
You may have noticed that attractive girls have a tendency to date guys who you probably think are twats. Well, yea, they may not be as sweet and caring as the girls would like, but they are the guys with confidence, who actually go out there and put themselves on the line. They put themselves in situations where they meet lots of women, they get a decent amount of experience with women and they generally have enough redeeming qualities so that they seem like a better option than the no-balls nerds they could date.

First I'd like to say that I don't mean to argue or flame. I'd just like to inform you that nothing you wrote here applies to me (I'm a woman). Honestly. You made some interesting points (I especially liked the one about dance), and I know that 'It does not apply to me' is not really a scientific argument, but all this about women liking men in control and men with confidence I find absolutely off-putting. Maybe I'm 'glitchy', but I am instantly attracted to geeky guys, shy guys, guys who may not have the courage to ask a girl out and similar specimens. And if I really want to get to know them, I will approach them, no matter what someone might think about it or what social norms we follow or what is ingrained in our behaviour. Give me a massive nerd over confident manly man any time. I do not believe that men should be the ones to act first, especially if the feelings are obviously mutual and the girl is more confident. If I feel more confident, I will not oblige some ancient behaviour models and wait for the poor man to get three strokes before managing to ask me out if I can do it without any problem whatsoever. It's irresponsible and childish to wait for the knight in shining armour to come and take me with his noble steed. Women had to be passive only because they had no rights and were regarded as property; property should not ask for it's master. It's the master who attains property. That type of relation I am absolutely abhorred by and personally, I would not tolerate it (if the guy really gets annoying with white-knighting; in small amounts, and in agreement, if can be cute and quirky, I admit). What went on in the past, should stay in the past, at least when we discuss gender norms.

Now, I know there are women who enjoy that. I have nothing against it, as long as it's their choice. Same with men. If you're fine with being in control, asking the girl out, paying every time and so on; be my guest. I really have nothing against that type of lifestyle. However, I am against violently teaching children since young age to fall into those roles, despite those roles may not be their natural state of being. I know plenty of confident women and it would be a shame to force them into submission. I also know plenty of awesome non-confident guys and it would be horrible to force them to be something they cannot be. It serves no purpose, besides bringing frustration and misery to both parties.

Again, I'll say that I don't have anything against some people actually liking that. Some men are confident, some are not. Some women are passive, some are not. Find the type you prefer and that's it. No need to force everyone into one type. Times have changed, and I'm glad they did.