Dating norms need to change

[aidutcher]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
[Section 1] Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

[Section 2] How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


[Section 3]I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

I made some text bold and added section numbers for easy reference. Please keep in mind that I don't intend to seem hostile or to insult you in any way, but it appears to me like there are some errors in your logic.

Section 1:

No, it most certainly does not suck. It?s exactly as it should be. Nobody except you should have control over when your body is touched or when your living space is entered. If you?re in a situation when these things aren?t in your control, something is wrong.

Section 2:

I think there are various reasons why anybody would be hesitant to make the first move. I don?t have any research or evidence containing statistics on who makes the first moves in a relationship (though now I have an idea for my capstone research project), but if women are less likely to make the first move, there?s a possibility that various psychological and sociological phenomena are in play. I do know that out of the four relationships I?ve been in, two of them were initiated by the girl, but I?m hardly a representative sample.

As far as paying for the date goes, I consider offering to cover the total expenses to be the polite thing to do, but if a woman demanded that I paid for all of it (and I?ve actually encountered some who said they wouldn?t be with a man who didn?t pay for their first date) I probably wouldn?t even want a second date. That?s just rude and presumptuous in my opinion. I think each person covering his or her own portion of the date is a reasonable compromise. Evolutionary psychology would take this discussion back to women seeking power and resources in their mates, hence men showing their resources by paying for the date and risking the appearance of inadequacy otherwise. However, evolutionary psychology is a touchy subject.

A guy should always have control over whether or not a girl has permission to kiss him, and vice versa. Just because you?re a guy doesn?t mean there aren?t perfectly acceptable reasons why you wouldn?t want a girl you barely know to kiss you.

Section 3:

This just sounds like typical ?nice guy? thinking. There are many factors that determine compatibility. eHarmony specifies and uses 29 dimensions to match its users, but compatibility is ultimately a nebulous concept, so even though a woman may be looking for ?Mr. Right? and a man might be a ?nice guy,? there?s nothing that says they?re automatically compatible and that they should be together. I find it hard to imagine that the average woman is just sitting around waiting for the perfect man with the body of a model to come and sweep her off of her feet, or that women feel they?re settling if they engage in relationships with people who aren?t perfect. If they do, they?re going to have rather disappointing lives, because perfection is hard to come by.

In summary, only you can decide when it?s okay to touch you; offering to pay for the date is a polite gesture from either member of the date, but each person paying for his or her own portion is acceptable; and ?nice guy? thinking is vacuous and should be avoided.

 

[aashell13]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

well, not really. this assumes her comfort zone the limiting factor; if for some reason she's willing to go farther than you are she can't very well make you, now can she?

oftentimes it's a valid assumption, but nowhere near all the time. besides, this really boils down to her deciding what she's comfortable with; if her comfort zones are a problem then you should
A. reevaluate your expectations
or
B. find another girl who's more comfortable with what you want to do.

 

[sir.rutthed]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

Dude.

Chill out dude.

Dating isn't as bad as all that unless you worry about it. Just relax and have fun with someone you can relax and have fun with and you're set. Everything else will be worked out along the way.

 

[Cinnonym]

Well, OP. Sweetheart. If you don't like the repeated routines, maybe you should be the one to stick your foot out and break the habit. Going the same route on every outing and then wondering why the "standards" aren't changing is a little bit crazy.

Don't like paying for dates? Don't take her on a date that requires cash. Seek to spend time with her in a less committal locale. Talk her up from a free park bench, or go window shop idly. Find common interests that might provide groundwork for future dates. Basically, test the waters before you invest.

Don't like making the first move? Being pouty isn't going to help. Make yourself approachable. Make eye contact. Give a smile. Be attentive and friendly, so that she feels encouraged to communicate. Not working? You're going to have to accept that some girls are just shy by nature or by principle. She'll find a way to let you know if she's interested by making herself approachable to you.

Here's an additional tip: stop whining. Seriously, are you 12? OH GOD, maybe you are. Crap. Well, pretend you aren't. Acting like an entitled jackass every time you foot the bill makes you a creep, not a gentleman. Making a girl feel obligated to spend time with you, sexually or conversationally, broadcasts to the girl that "you're not special--just female". Feeling as though she could be replaced by any other girl and you'd be just as happy with the attention will make her feel worthless. Who would be attracted to a guy like that?

And if it's solely sex that you're after--then pay up, buddy, because money is the only bribe a whore takes.

I personally find it quite easy to let a man know when I'm interested, and I have no qualms about suggesting dates or extending invitations. Why would I be so different from another female? Because we're all different people, you idiots. Matters of biology and statistics are only going to get you so far in the dating game. Just like I can't compare you to Joe from across the hall by virtue of you both having dicks, remember that every woman has different desires and grew up building different principles. I've had to support my mother and my two sisters financially and emotionally for my adolescent and adult life--I don't have time for cat-and-mouse games and weepy bullshit and therefore do not take an interest in men who need constant validation, especially when it comes with the risk of him fathering my child by horrible mistake.

 

[gentleben]

...SNIP SNIP SNIP...

...To be honest, this whole post just makes you sound incredibly whiney and ignorant to a lot of things. Stop crying about it and just do it.

You want to know what really sucks? Nine months of pregnancy and child birth. And you want to complain about the fact that you have to pay for dinner?

Hah.

I apologise if I sound harsh here, I have no intentions to - but I want to lay it down like it is.

Quoted for truth (I would have quoted the entire thing, but it was too long and devastating to be reproduced in all its glory.

OP is confirmed for being a massive Omega Dog.

 

[deathninja]

I've had something of an atypical dating history; 3/4 it's been a girl 'friend' and it just went further. No dates, no preconceptions, just drifting closer in what we normally did. The relationships lasted a long time and ended amicably too (well, returned to friends).

Easy in, easy out, not the traditional way, but it's worked well, without any sour moments.

Or if you want role reversal with dating, the Polish lass who my brother introduced me to, Jesus Christ...

 

[JdaS]

Girls don't make the first move, and if they do that can, weirdly enough, scare some guys off.
Ask a guy out on a date? Well, that's often close to the same thing as making the first move.

That is completely untrue. The number of times I've had this conversation with all my different groups of friends, I have never met a guy who would be turned off by a girl making a move. In fact quite the opposite.

Truth! Truth right here people! Get it while it's hot. Had a girl make the first move on me not long ago. Felt good man.

 

[Nickolai77]

*snips*

You know what really pisses me off about your post?

The fact that your probably right.

It took me quite a few years to "get it" (probably because i was socially retarded teenager 5-6 years ago), but to get a girlfriend a guy has to be confident, commanding, assertive, and all these things because of evolutionary biology. Girls find a tall guy who's physically strong and socially confident attractive because she knows he'll protect her. (generally speaking of course, hooray for individual differences)

But it troubles me saying such things, because it sounds very....primeval, but that's because it is, our brains haven't really changed much over the last 100,000 years. It also troubles me because i agree with the Op's sentiments that it's unfair against guy's to be expected to make the make the first moves and such. As in, if your not naturally confident or assertive, you have to act like somebody else if you want to get into a relationship basically.

I feel like a musician who's happily produced his own unique music for a while, but then realised that if he wants to pay the bills and actually have an income, he's going to have to "sell out" and produce some cheesy pop music.

So, i really do sympathise with the Op, I only think it's not really possible to change such social practises because they are rooted in evolutionary history, human nature tends not to change.

My ex however, who i should stress is my ex for very good reasons, did actually make the first move in initiating a relationship, and i'm still glad she did, i respect her for going against social convention. Individual differences are there, but in general trends she's an oddity.

 

[PotatoeMan]

Men have it easy, since the conditions that make us attractive mates are more under our control than they are for women. Just stand up straight (which unconsciously signals that you have healthy core muscles, abdomen and pelvis, that are necessary for good sex), and develop a few talents that women can respect, which can be hobbies or professional skills. Do these things and women will throw themselves at you even if you have an ugly face and excessive body fat.

This is very true, stand up straight, be confident (not arrogant) and your ninety percent there. Keep fit too and girls will approach you.
The whole idea of the chase someone else mentioned is a very outdated concept. If I think a woman isn?t interested I?ll back off. You know you could edit most romance movies into stalker thrillers as they seem to overemphasise this idea.

 

[seamusotorain]

Pretty much have to agree on the girl being in control. Yeah there is not much of a difference between having a girlfriend and getting a hooker. Really break it down for a minute and think about it. After spending money on all the dinners, movies, lunches, events she wants to go to, your paying for sex. Many women don't start paying for stuff till way later in the relationship. I mean at least with a hooker you just throw the money down and get what you want right out of the gate. Do get to have more sex with a girlfriend, your still shelling out money. How often do you spend money on your friends like that. Every once in awhile I will buy stuff for my friend, not all the time. Always laugh my ass off when women say it isn't true. Don't tell me for one second that your boyfriend doesn't spend money on you at least once a week.

I'm sorry you've only met women like that. I also hope you come to the realisation that a relationship isn't some kind of grind quest where you do lots of expensive, boring shit that you have no interest in just so you get sex.

 

[LiberalSquirrel]

I'm more focused on the problem of having to cover everything in a relationship.

Anyone else have this problem? The girl expects you to pay for everything? I'm currently dating someone who doesn't do that, I'm lucky, but in my experience I've found there's a lot of women who expect men to pay for everything.

I have the opposite problem. I don't like guys paying for everything. Makes me feel like I'm mooching off of them. I have money too, I can pay for my own dinner/movie ticket/whatever. But every single guy I've gone out with decides that he needs to pay for everything for me. "Because chivalry," I assume. It's flattering, if I make an attempt to look at it objectively... but it's just annoying when I go, "Oh no, I can pay for my half," and the guy insists on paying anyways. And I always tell them beforehand that I'm going to pay for my part of wherever we go.

Not listening to me = uber-turn-off.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

No offence OP but you just sound bitter and like you are stuck in 1950.

Every date I have gone out with I have paid equally for. I asked my first boyfriend out first.
Your views are completely outdated.

 

[Erana]

*snips*

You know what really pisses me off about your post?

The fact that your probably right.

It took me quite a few years to "get it" (probably because i was socially retarded teenager 5-6 years ago), but to get a girlfriend a guy has to be confident, commanding, assertive, and all these things because of evolutionary biology. Girls find a tall guy who's physically strong and socially confident attractive because she knows he'll protect her.

...No? Why would you think this?
Its not "Oh, I'm a Girl! I need a Man to protect me!"
Its "Hey, this guy looks like he has his shit together. Great, a relationship with him would be about spending time with each other and having fun instead of having to play the mindgames of a guy with tons of insecurities and anxiety issues."

Women always get painted as being the ones who are emotional, and illogical and who read waaay too far into things, but that's a human trait, and women are just as disinterested in dealing with someone who refuses to accept and address their personal issues as men are...
Unless one is really so naive as to mistake someone's insecurities and problems with "endearing gender traits."
And then we're right back to someone blaming society and the opposite sex for why they always pick bad partners.

 

[Ham_authority95]

I am mainly referring to internet dating, but in a sense this can be applied to 'real life' dating too.

Now I'm going to make some sweeping generalisations in the next few paragraphs but I want everybody to know that there are of course exceptions, frequent exceptions to these generalisations, but these are just my own viewpoint and in my own experience.

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it? Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.
Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.
This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Sucks doesn't it?

There are many more dates and many different outcomes to the whole dating scene, yet there is one thing you very very rarely see or hear from it, and that's the opposite of what I just said.

How often does a girl make the first move?
How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?
How often does a girl pay solely for the date?
How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?


I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.


As I stated at the beginning of this, these are just generalisations which have exceptions, but I'm sure many of you Escapists out there (both men and women) know what I am talking about.
We live in the 21st century, yet we still seem to be stuck in the 1950's when it comes to our dating attitudes.

*As a weird side note, I know many lesbians and they seem to have the dating system down right. Maybe straight people should borrow some ideas from them?

All we can do about these norms is to praise women who make the first move.

So to all you women who make the first move: YOU ARE AWESOME AND HAVE NERVES OF STEEL! Seriously, you make it so much easier for men, as much as tough-guy douches don't want to admit it.

 

[willsham45]

I cannot say I have all that much in terms of experiance other than I am with someone now. I think if you are looking for someone you are just as likly to find someone as if you are not looking for someone.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Because guys want it more that women.

You sir, are an idiot.

I don't see why. I'm tempted to say that so are you.

You made a fairly common, and completely stupid generalisation about the human psyche. It's like you're 14, and have no idea about the real world. Go on, quote some more, hackneyed, cliches, without bothering to think, or look up any information about the subject.

 

[Alphonse_Lamperouge]

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

what the actual fuck.
are you aware that you sound exactly like a rapist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/its-always-sunny-in-phila_1_n_749078.html

remember, kids, none of us ever need to resort to rape, because of the implication, as the above video proves

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

No, that doesn't suck at all.
So, you want to be able to dictate when you can touch and kiss a girl you hardly know and are just starting to date? Tough tits.
(Sweeping generalisation incoming).
Women are usually `in control` like that because if a dude was it'd be a hand up the shirt before he said hi.

Also, the dating model you have described usually only occurs when a guy is going out with a girl who is really hot and perhaps a bit out of his league.
I cant tell you how many arrogant (if nice-looking) guys there are waiting around for Miss.Right as well, who wont give the time of day to `nice girls`. It happens the other way around, too.
Plus, I thought the modern thing to do was split paying for dates 50/50? (Or at least every date I've ever been on has been).

Yeah, pretty much this.

Besides, the girl isn't ENTIRELY in control of when the kiss occurs. It's just that (in your example) the guy is ready before the girl is.

Trust me, if I (female) want to kill a man who doesn't want me to, it doesn't happen. It takes two to tango. For one thing, generally the guy needs to lean down a bit or I'd end up kissing his chin.

 

[Jimmy Sylvers]

People seem to misunderstand what the OP is saying... What he's basically saying is that the guy is doing most of the work for the date, and the girl gets to decide everything. He wonders why this is not a thing shared more equally. As in, setting up the date is done together, and together they decide what happens.

As for paying for dates, women can split the bill but remember that it seems like you are the one trying to impress her not the other way around so paying for dates is a way of doing this in human society.

That's just it. Is it always the man that has to impress the woman? Are the roles never reversed? Are people not supposed to impress eachother, instead of it being one-sided?

Does this mean women care more about the man's personality than the man about the woman's personality? Why is that? Is it not important for the woman to impress the man as well? Has it become so normal that the man pays for the bills that it would be weird, or perhaps even disgraceful to ask to split the bill? Did you not go and have a good time together? And even if you didn't have a good time, all the more reason to split the bill equally, because I'm sure everyone would hate to be the person stuck with the entire bill for an evening neither he nor the person he is paying for enjoyed.

If the date is a surprise date, I can imagine the one setting it up would be the one paying. If it is something both agreed on, both should pay, decide where to go, what to do.

I believe that women have every right to control their own sexuality and the manner in which they behave in courting rituals. In this specific situation the Poster seemed to not be someone who others attempted to impress for whatever reason. So in that situation it is perfectly acceptable to impress a woman with whatever abilities he has i.e. paying for dates, amazing her with his mime act or showing her his enormous collection of warhammer 40K figurines (painting them blue may be useful here....).

A woman could do the exact same thing, I do not believe that there is a specific way that each sex should behave because in my opinion gender is entirely fabricated.

 

[Jimmy Sylvers]

EDIT: Damn my first double post.