Dating norms need to change

[the Dept of Science]

This date, although you've done all the hard work... she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Here lies the problem in your attitude.

The only realm in which I believe that feminism doesn't apply is in dating. In this realm, we are hard wired to find certain things attractive, which can't be undone by any amount of logic or social conditioning.
One of those things is that the guy should be in control. While a girl does decide whether she reciprocates your actions, you should be making the first move in every situation. You should be the one to approach her, the one to communicate that you are interested, the one who asks her out and the one that kisses her. If you sit around thinking "man, that girl is cute, I hope that she asks me out", you are acting like a pussy.
Dance is the worlds oldest mating ritual, and there is not a single partnered dance in the world where the girl takes the lead. Ballroom, latin, swing. In every one the guy is in charge, because when it comes to sex, that is his rightful position. His job is to control her and there is nothing a woman finds sexier than a man who is in control.

You are sitting there thinking that that doesn't sound fair, because you have this impression that an attractive woman doesn' put any work into finding the right guy.
That's just plain wrong. Compare your average women's magazine (eg. Cosmo) and your average men's magazine (eg. Nuts). Cosmo is stocked full of articles about how to find, attract and keep "Mr Right".
You know why that is. Because a lot of the men they date turn out to be not ideal men. Maybe they aren't sweet and caring, maybe they aren't that interesting.
Nuts is just like "Hey, your a man, keep being awesome! Here's some pictures of motorbikes and tits".

Where are the "Mr Right"s then? Well... there isn't that much of them around. You may think you are a sweet caring guy, but that just isn't enough. Being sweet and caring counts for shit if you are a massive nerd who spends long hours playing videogames. Its not an attractive lifestyle. It also counts for shit if you have no balls and sit around complaining that it isn't the girls that make the first move.
You may have noticed that attractive girls have a tendency to date guys who you probably think are twats. Well, yea, they may not be as sweet and caring as the girls would like, but they are the guys with confidence, who actually go out there and put themselves on the line. They put themselves in situations where they meet lots of women, they get a decent amount of experience with women and they generally have enough redeeming qualities so that they seem like a better option than the no-balls nerds they could date.

First I'd like to say that I don't mean to argue or flame. I'd just like to inform you that nothing you wrote here applies to me (I'm a woman). Honestly. You made some interesting points (I especially liked the one about dance), and I know that 'It does not apply to me' is not really a scientific argument, but all this about women liking men in control and men with confidence I find absolutely off-putting. Maybe I'm 'glitchy', but I am instantly attracted to geeky guys, shy guys, guys who may not have the courage to ask a girl out and similar specimens. And if I really want to get to know them, I will approach them, no matter what someone might think about it or what social norms we follow or what is ingrained in our behaviour. Give me a massive nerd over confident manly man any time. I do not believe that men should be the ones to act first, especially if the feelings are obviously mutual and the girl is more confident. If I feel more confident, I will not oblige some ancient behaviour models and wait for the poor man to get three strokes before managing to ask me out if I can do it without any problem whatsoever. It's irresponsible and childish to wait for the knight in shining armour to come and take me with his noble steed. Women had to be passive only because they had no rights and were regarded as property; property should not ask for it's master. It's the master who attains property. That type of relation I am absolutely abhorred by and personally, I would not tolerate it (if the guy really gets annoying with white-knighting; in small amounts, and in agreement, if can be cute and quirky, I admit). What went on in the past, should stay in the past, at least when we discuss gender norms.

Now, I know there are women who enjoy that. I have nothing against it, as long as it's their choice. Same with men. If you're fine with being in control, asking the girl out, paying every time and so on; be my guest. I really have nothing against that type of lifestyle. However, I am against violently teaching children since young age to fall into those roles, despite those roles may not be their natural state of being. I know plenty of confident women and it would be a shame to force them into submission. I also know plenty of awesome non-confident guys and it would be horrible to force them to be something they cannot be. It serves no purpose, besides bringing frustration and misery to both parties.

Again, I'll say that I don't have anything against some people actually liking that. Some men are confident, some are not. Some women are passive, some are not. Find the type you prefer and that's it. No need to force everyone into one type. Times have changed, and I'm glad they did.

Ok, I found this interesting, a few points I would like to pick up on.

Before I continue, I would like to point out that pretty much all of my experience is from cold-approach pick-up. In other words, I rarely date girls in my social circle. Most of the girls I date have never been my friends, the first time I meet them is on the street, the second time I meet them is on a date. I realise that this gives me a skewed perception of dating, but I've dated upwards of 20 girls in the last few months (saying that, a lot of them were single coffee dates that didn't go anywhere). When doing it my way, I don't have the luxury of time. If I meet a girl and don't at least get her contact details, chances are I'll never see her again.

Now in response to your post. Some of these are quite subtle distinctions, ones which I didn't really think of until reading your post.

Firstly, there is a difference between being in control and being controlling.
Being in control is a positive trait. It's having a clear idea of what you want, having the know-how to get it and having the confidence to put those plans into action. I would go so far as to say that this is one of the few universally attractive traits. Some girls, as you say, like shy nerdy guys, but I'm going to suggest that guys lacking this quality is the number one reason why threads like this exist.
Being controlling is a negative trait. It results from a lack of confidence or insecurity. If a guy is controlling, chances are its because its that he believes that the girl he has doesn't want him. He considers other men a threat. He feels the best way to keep the girl is, metaphorically, on a leash.
I have no insecurities about a girl having lots of male friends or enjoying her time away from me. I would even let her have other sexual partners if she felt comfortable with giving me the same privilege.

Secondly, I would like to say that by no means do I consider myself macho. I'm not a gym freak, I read lots of books, I study maths, I hate clubbing, it's been a while since I've been drunk. I don't consider macho-ness important in the light of true masculinity.
I think this is a trait that can take a long time to cultivate but is essential in realising your true potential as a man. I only consider myself part way towards this goal. A truly masculine man should be courteous, always have the woman's needs in mind and consider satisfying her his primary goal. He should be upfront, straightforward and unapologetic about his actions. He should be honest and dependable. He should also be in control.
There is no reason a man can't be both masculine and romantic. It depends whether the romantic element comes from a position of strength or weakness. If a guy takes a girl out for an expensive meal because he is thinking "hey, maybe if I do THIS then she will finally put out!", then being romantic is a negative quality.
I'm not rich enough to afford to take women out to fine restaurants. If I was however, it would just be an extension of my lifestyle. The frame is "I eat in fine restaurants, I would enjoy taking a girl there and she would enjoy my company", not "oh boy, I've got a date with a nice girl, I better impress her". If I was a rich businessman for example, it would just come off as being incredibly cheap to insist that she paid for her share of the meal.
I'd like to clarify that I don't generally pay for dates and they usually just involve going for coffee. Dates don't need to be anything big or impressive. It's not my job to impress a girl.

 

[Icehearted]

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

 

[Robertus2210]

you have some pretty strange ideas about dating, or had case had some odd dates i'm guessing.

amongst the girls i've been out with several off them made the first move, they aproached me, asked me out, and even when i offered to pay for everything they still insisted to share the bill. and when it comes to kissing or anything behond that, hey its always a mutual thing

though after reading your first post i gotta say, its not about how much money you spend on a date, you can't buy her a few drinks and consider it only fitting she aks you inside later
you gotta understand that in such cases each person will always be in ''control'' of themselves and deciding where it goes. I mean you say she's in control about if she's going to kiss you, but you are in as much control as her, over if you let her kiss you and vise versa ofcourse.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

So imagine you're a guy (or don't imagine if you actually are a guy) and wham, you're thrust into the crazy world of dating. Scary, isn't it?

No.

Trying to find a girl you like, attempting to talk to her, trying not to scare her off while all the while worrying whether it's going well or not.

Here's a hint, you're only DATING. You're not doing your SATs or something. If you're so invested in making sure it goes right that you're already having massive insecurity attacks when you're just at the dating stage, you need to lighten up, ditch all expectations and just have fun.

Maybe it does, you get a second date. You're happy about this, yet this brings more problems.. you have to do something fun, something she'd like and most probably spend a hefty amount of money setting it all up.

If the kind of women you date expect you to go through some kind of psychological challenge to figure out that their ideal SECOND date involves a space flight, Tom Jones and a crate of Moet, I suggest you start looking elsewhere.

This date, although you've done all the hard work...she's still in control, she's always in control. She controls if and when you get to touch her, kiss her, walk her up to her door and maybe get invited in.

Okay, wow, what you're proposing is only borderline rapist.

Sucks doesn't it?

No.

How often does a girl make the first move?

Has happened to me plenty of times.

How often does a girl ask a guy out on a date?

Has happened to me several times.

How often does a girl pay solely for the date?

Why should she? (Almost happened to me, actually)

How often does a guy get to decide whether a girl kisses him or not?

I personally have made that call at least once.

I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy, or women are just happy to wait around, for seemingly forever waiting for mr right to show, when of course he doesn't and generally have to settle for someone a little less, which can (but not always) end on a bad note.

You do know that all that talk about "Mr Right" is something that generally exclusively goes on between gatherings of girls, and is generally the female equivalent of a group of blokes asking "Megan Fox or Scarlett Johannsen?"

I hope I'm also not the first person to point out to you that if you've ever been rejected and told "you're a nice guy", it's basically code for "you're boring and this is my way of letting you down easy." It has nothing to do with how 'nice' you actually are.

Dating norms are fine. Either drop your bizarre ideas of social sex contracts or move to a culture that supports them.

 

[Aprilgold]

Simply because of society norms and how society pushes and ETC. Many girls go after the wrong man, you know, the asshole pretty boy one because, well, society and media pushed into their minds that, THAT type of person is the Mr. Right. Honestly, it doesn't work the same way in reverse, but does have the same effect.

YOU HAVE BEEN SNIPPED!

Yeah I agree with this guy completely. You should date a women just to enjoy her company and do all the romantic stuff like flowers and long walks. Love is a slow process and women are delicate flowers who should be nurtured gently like a mulberry bush. Although its okay on a first date if you stick it in her ass in my opinion. Just no regular sex before marriage. Because God will smite you.

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free. I'm reminded of the event to where four highschool girls held down a elementary school boy and stripped him, against his will, and videotaped it and put onto the interenet to say "Hay, look what I did this week" not counting that they THEN get away with no punishment. Or the time that the Women in Russia caught a guy robbing her store, and kept him as a sex slave for several weeks before cops found out. Or the time that a woman got away with killing her husband, despite full evidence that would lead to a conviction, she got away, SCOT FREE because she said he abused her. Or the thing to where a woman has a higher chance of keeping a child in a divorce, despite being unfit as a parent to lead the child through their lives, and probably MANY others, honestly, they can be, sorry to use the phrase, asses, but so can everyone, so lets not play special here.

Love may be slow, but the way it is NOW is tailored around when woman were known as delicate flowers. They fought for equality, can we just give them that?

 

[McGuinty1]

Has anyone told all the misdirected, misanthropic, misogynist miscreants in this thread to fuck off back to r/MensRights yet? It's telling that every time I load up the front page of this site, the forums feed contains at least one horrible thread penned by some angsty teenager with a completely warped worldview and an entitlement complex. Everytime I click on one, I think to myself, "this one has to be a troll", but nope, this is what this kid actually believes. Where do people get these ideas?

 

[JakePwnsAtLife]

Yeah, I am a woman and I made the first move with my current boyfriend. I was feeling shitty and had just gotten out of a long term relationship so I got on one of those online dating sites to feel better about myself, and then I got a few crappy dates waiting around for guys to message me so I said "fuck this" and searched around for a guy I -want- rather than waiting for one to fall in my lap and I sent him the first message. Not all women are like you described, and if they are, it's because society has dictated that women who make the first move are either desperate or whores. I didn't give a fuck, but a lot of girls are insecure and they think the guy couldn't possibly want them, so they don't make the first moves. As for money, I don't let anyone pay for me, EVER. It's just not something I'm comfortable with unless I'm flat broke and then I get them back as soon as I get paid again. It's not very nice to make generalizations based on your experiences. You just need to meet different girls mate.

 

[tobyornottoby]

I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy

While at the same time that 'nice guy' has no interest in the 'nice girl' who is not quite as model-esque as he'd hoped and she's just a regular girl...

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/

 

[Aprilgold]

Has anyone told all the misdirected, misanthropic, misogynist miscreants in this thread to fuck off back to r/MensRights yet? It's telling that every time I load up the front page of this site, the forums feed contains at least one horrible thread penned by some angsty teenager with a completely warped worldview and an entitlement complex. Everytime I click on one, I think to myself, "this one has to be a troll", but nope, this is what this kid actually believes. Where do people get these ideas?

OP is PROBABLY not the best person to start this thread, but from what I can figure out, hes asking why does *in a sense* does a guy do all the work, all the surprising while the women just sits there judging each attempt? I'll quote myself for a second.

" I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp."

And Men DO have rights, not all guys are horrible monsters and not everyone in the gender should be treated like their horrible monsters.

Anyways, could you answer the OPs question from what I got out of it?

 

[Aulleas123]

So the OP is suggesting that we turn over our mating rituals engrained by several thousands of years of human evolution? Rapid change to satisfy individuals instead of having those individuals cope with the world around us... exactly what's wrong with our world today.

Look, I'm not saying that it sucks for me (as a guy) to have to push myself out there awkwardly just to get a conversation. However billions of men in history have been able to be successful at dating women through these standards and I'm sure that many other men (probably in the billions too) have succeeded by following these proposed standards as well.

It all comes to the point that sex/romance/love/lust is weird.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I think you're conflating a few issues here. Women have every right to be concerned about being approached in a situation they're not comfortable with. To suggest though that that logic of 'all men are rapists' carries over into the dating world is a bit much. If you politely approach a woman in a socially acceptable fashion, no one's going to begrudge you. Except possibly any husband or boyfriend she has hanging around.

 

[JakePwnsAtLife]

Pretty much have to agree on the girl being in control. Yeah there is not much of a difference between having a girlfriend and getting a hooker. Really break it down for a minute and think about it. After spending money on all the dinners, movies, lunches, events she wants to go to, your paying for sex. Many women don't start paying for stuff till way later in the relationship. I mean at least with a hooker you just throw the money down and get what you want right out of the gate. Do get to have more sex with a girlfriend, your still shelling out money. How often do you spend money on your friends like that. Every once in awhile I will buy stuff for my friend, not all the time. Always laugh my ass off when women say it isn't true. Don't tell me for one second that your boyfriend doesn't spend money on you at least once a week.

My boyfriend DOES NOT spend money on me once a week. We always go dutch for dinner and pay for ourselves at events because we're both independent people who like spending time together and we both have good paying jobs. Way to generalize both genders by suggesting that all men want is sex and not a meaningful, loving relationship with someone and all women do is ride along for free dinners.

Wonder why this guy is single, truly, it is just dumbfounding me. And if he isn't, I wonder how long he would be in a relationship if he showed his significant other this post.~

 

[Erana]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I know too many people who were raped and molested, and even a couple people who were brutally raped and subsequently murdered in very traumatic ways to not have an acute fear on the matter of sexual assault.

And all of these acts were committed by men. And yes, women perpetrate such actions, too, but that's typically more towards their own opposite sex.
Considering my age, statistics, and the kind of people I catch staring at my ass, if I get sexually assaulted, its probably going to be at the hands of a man.
No, this does not mean that all men are rapists, and yes, danger can come from women, too, but it does bother me a bit when someone is insulted that I'm not going to strike up a casual conversation with some stranger on the street at night.

Edit:
I shouldn't leave this comment like this, because he isn't implying that being afraid of rape is wrong, its the reaction to it.
And yes, it is discrimination to treat every man like a potential rapist, but of all the discrimination out there these days, this, sadly, is one of the most rational ones out there. I'm sorry, I don't want to go making pointless accusations, and I'm not going to judge a person's character based on statistics. But with all the dangers of the world, people are one of the most complex ones to address.
But while I'm at it, I'm wary of everyone, as most people have reason to be. Its just that rape is a particularly scary reason for being wary, and many people don't know how to be tactful in their suspicions and not go about saying that everyone's potential sex offenders.

And that last part about conversations with strangers at night, that refers to an uncomfortable situation that happened last week at 2:30 AM ish while I was outside a building waiting for a ride that was late, and not an implication of the poster's intentions.

 

[JakePwnsAtLife]

I've seen/heard/spoken to a large number of women who are all seeking 'the perfect guy' or 'mr right' or something along those lines but either they don't want to know when a nice guy turns up and he's not quite as model-esque as they'd hoped and he's just a regular guy

While at the same time that 'nice guy' has no interest in the 'nice girl' who is not quite as model-esque as he'd hoped and she's just a regular girl...

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/12/16/the-internet-nice-guy-rears-his-ugly-head-once-more/

Hear hear!!

Yeah, that is a two way street fellas. You all don't look at the homely girls either. You expect the model-looking women to drop their standards for you, but you never drop yours for the nice, amazing personality girl who happens to have a few extra pounds or looks a little plain. If you do, then congrats, and you're probably a lot closer to having a relationship.

 

[Aprilgold]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

Erm, no, thats why the analogy up at the top of the speech said
"Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp." Because like guys, some are major pricks, and some are very nice, but many are / were mean to me for many years in increasing numbers of severity. I can probably reword the top of the phrase for it to make more sense, but, again, I see it as a rose among a rosebush sort of deal, but thats my personal view. Hell, what is my first sentence of me quoting that person.
"I can't count how many times that is wrong with me" Read that a few times, it says WITH ME, and this thread has been making sweeping generalizations the whole bloody time, why is my post anger such wrath.

Again, I could reword that better, but, once again its a personal view of mine, and I may be a ass for saying it, but a lot of my friends do so much for each of their gals and never gets a single thank you from them, and many times they lie and say their going to leave him if he doesn't do X thing, they have done some very extreme thing for each of their chicks, but don't get much thanks for any of it. Madam, I'm not insulting women, Roses are symbolic for being both pretty and bright, however, the stem is covered in thorns, this basically is symbolic for basically standing for that their pretty, bright *smart* but can be hard to grasp *fall in love with / be mean* this is not a insult, as it is very symbolic of how women have treated me throughout my life.

Sorry, but I meant no offense by it, only I should probably try and grow better at using symbolism to my advantage in writing.

EDIT:
Almost forgot, the whole rant was aimed at the phrase "Girls are delicate flowers" phrase, so not at girls IN GENERAL, just at the phrase.

 

[Icehearted]

Spoiler: snippidy-doo-da

I was speaking with a woman about the impressions each sex has of the other, referring to a conversation I overheard where three women were talking about the coffee shop where they worked at, and being afraid to close up after dark. I live in a fairly innocuous neighborhood, but grew up in a violent city, so I was conflicted. Basically, the conversation was three women deciding that pretty much all men were out to rape them at any given moment, and being women, they were under constant threat by men, and they were helpless in the likely event they would be raped.

To my companion, I suggested that the perception that all men are rape-monsters with potentially lethal amounts of lust boiling inside us all was silly, offensive, and unfair. She agreed, but said it was a societally formed discrimination. For a man to approach a woman in a place that is not designated for doing so (such places being parties, nightclubs, etc) he is going to be perceived as a threat. A woman walking alone at night will do her best to avoid men. She admitted it was totally sexist, and offered nothing more as far as to how this perception could be averted.

Therein lies the point. This is sexism, this is discrimination, and it's tolerated by too many people. There isn't much men can do, we've been openly emasculated in most forms of media for decades, and this will likely never end because too many people are either totally for it or just plain apathetic.

Used to be people understood what flirting was, these days it seems everything is considered flirting, and it's up to men to figure out when they mean it or they do not. She smiles at you, she's not flirting, she just smiled at you, or maybe she's flirting? How would we know? What are we to do? How can we even say hello without getting maced for secretly being rape-monsters?

Rhetorical questions, there are no answers.

I think you're conflating a few issues here. Women have every right to be concerned about being approached in a situation they're not comfortable with. To suggest though that that logic of 'all men are rapists' carries over into the dating world is a bit much. If you politely approach a woman in a socially acceptable fashion, no one's going to begrudge you. Except possibly any husband or boyfriend she has hanging around.

I don't really see how, though I may be a bit less inhibited about calling out what's become the norm. I agree, it's every woman's right to be concerned, but this concern is often exaggerated. Let's not kid ourselves; "I don't kiss on the first date", "No sex until I'm ready", and "It's too soon" are phrases women have used far more than men. Often these things are said even when the issue hasn't been broached by the male half of the party. My point is really that there are intrinsic disparities between the sexes that favor the "men are dogs/ women have every right" statements we see generally at play.

I will give an example, but it's a bit off topic, though it punctuates things pretty well. Generally, if a man does anything to harm a woman sexually, in a way that inflicts pain, it's regarded as monstrous. Reverse that, and it's a comedic nut-shot.

Sexism plays a large role in western culture, and it's largely slanted against men now. Watch most commercials and women have it together while men are buffoons. Someone doing a dumb stunt, it's men, while women just roll their eyes. There was even a Jack in the Box commercial that had two grown men in a stroller that started whining until the woman gave them food (I think they were tacos). Movies, same, "reality" tv, same, news, same. Apply this mentality to dating and we have an environment of hostility and contempt already at play long before we even manage to make eye contact for the first time.

My female friends have pretty much all agreed with me, though they're less tactful about how they phrase it. It's tough dating, hell even making friends with the opposite sex, especially if you're the male and a stranger.

 

[Felix 'Solomon' Hultgren]

This thread makes me sad. A big thanks to Phasmal, ohgodalex, Jimmy Sylvers and all others who has proved that sanity still exists on The Escapist forums.

 

[BlindedHunter]

So, this is a lot to read through and I'm finding some of it really confusing since, well, I find dating really confusing, but I feel like saying a bit of my own here because of some things I have read others say:
As a guy who is rather shy, and utterly focused on not doing anything wrong, and not very experienced in dating or even being social, I've found that:
- Girls really need to start making the first move sometimes, or at least consider it. If you are attracted to a guy and he's shy to the point of being functionally asexual, maybe you should be the one to say something. (Hello, personal experience!)
- The norms should probably go "girls always have total control over the physical aspects of a date unless they explicitly mandate otherwise". Even as a guy who is not interested in getting physical contact with as many girls as possible, if I'm with someone I really like my mind is going to go to sex, and I think that's the case with the large majority of men. While I don't think girls are completely without lust or anything, that would be silly, the most socially, culturally, and decent thing would be, I believe, to let them have the lead. Though I do think they should have more of the lead than they tend to take, but that's partly just because of my own inabilities.

As far as money goes, I think every date should end with a possibly-cutesy fight over who gets to pay.

 

[Death God]

I partially think it is due to the fact that women take it for granted now that the guy does the asking. Would be nice if it was the other way around but it is the world we live in and I don't see it changing any time soon.

 

[Erana]

I can't count how many times that is wrong with me, mainly because I see women as a rose bush, their nice and pretty, romantic, sometimes even flutter in the wind, but try and grab them and you get your hand cut up. Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp.

Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free.

You know what your problem is?

You think women are a "They."

That they're somehow different than you.
Women just have a hole where your hanger is, and all the other differences come down to social differences. You know, the same sorts of things that makes you, as an individual, different from the person your great great grandfather was.

Your bad relationship experience isn't that women are all cold and heartless but attractive things that hate you.
Unless you're being forced into marriage or something, bad relationships are because of your problems.

If you've been in a shitty relationship in the past, then fine. Acknowledge what you did to get yourself into this mess, realise that the cruelties of your partner are specific to that individual woman, and we'd be happy to help.
I mean, if its really extreme, like people who seem so damn perfect and manipulate their partner into a position of vulnerability, (like with child custody or citizenship status) sometimes it isn't really the individual's fault. Even then, though, I expect the victim to not then proceed to proclaim that all people of the opposite sex are manipulative, abusive people.

But you are insisting that, because of my sex, I am a selfish, unkind person who will backstab someone given the chance just because I am female. You are insulting me. You are insulting all women, and then you're using negative reactions to prove your point to yourself.
You have a problem here, and you need to accept that its your issue, not half the human race's.

Erm, no, thats why the analogy up at the top of the speech said
"Very rarely will you find one that is nicer then the rest and will let itself into your grasp." Because like guys, some are major pricks, and some are very nice, but many are / were mean to me for many years in increasing numbers of severity. I can probably reword the top of the phrase for it to make more sense, but, again, I see it as a rose among a rosebush sort of deal, but thats my personal view. Hell, what is my first sentence of me quoting that person.
"I can't count how many times that is wrong with me" Read that a few times, it says WITH ME, and this thread has been making sweeping generalizations the whole bloody time, why is my post anger such wrath.

Again, I could reword that better, but, once again its a personal view of mine, and I may be a ass for saying it, but a lot of my friends do so much for each of their gals and never gets a single thank you from them, and many times they lie and say their going to leave him if he doesn't do X thing, they have done some very extreme thing for each of their chicks, but don't get much thanks for any of it. Madam, I'm not insulting women, Roses are symbolic for being both pretty and bright, however, the stem is covered in thorns, this basically is symbolic for basically standing for that their pretty, bright *smart* but can be hard to grasp *fall in love with / be mean* this is not a insult, as it is very symbolic of how women have treated me throughout my life.

Sorry, but I meant no offense by it, only I should probably try and grow better at using symbolism to my advantage in writing.

Let me quote you here" Overall, as you can tell, I really don't think their delicate, many times they backstab both friends, family, and many others over petty things, then get away Scot free."
I'd say that's pretty damn negative a thing to say about women.

And while we're being literary snobs, its "They're" and you're missing a conjunction. I know very well what you're trying to say here, and that meaning is part of what I have issue with.
Women are people, and if you have a problem with the social interactions you're involved in, do something about it for Christ's sake. Go find new friends, try looking elsewhere for people to go out with, actively work on your social skills. You're an American male, and from the sounds of it, an American male not of any minority that would incur discrimination and hate crimes. Take advantage of that.
Yeah, people can be jerks, but after a certain point, you can't go blaming everyone else for the way you're treated. Women don't just fall in love willy-nilly because some men were just born "right" while others were born "wrong." You need to make yourself desireable to the kind of woman who will respect who you are, as a friend and partner, and keep looking for those kind of women until you find one who is looking for a relationship.

Yeah, you're blatantly bitter, but for God's sake, at least take it out on the people who actually did something instead of all women.

If your friends really are such good boyfriends who aren't getting any reciprocation for their kindness, then that is their fault. They need to stop being carpets and find partners who will respect them.

Just saying, "For me" doesn't alleviate your post of all that's going on in here, especially when you do not distinguish a difference between your personal experience and the issue of gender equality, which is universal.