David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

[Proverbial Jon]

Decapitation? Pfft, it's just a fleshwound.

Kinda reminds me of this:


Specifically from 1:25 onwards

Knight: Tis but a scratch!
Arthur: A scartch? Your arm's off!

Bioware must have watched heaps of Monty Python when writing DA2...

EDIT: In fact if it played out anything like this, Dragon Age would be overall improved by about 200%!

 

[Booze Zombie]

I hate that so much; weren't they touting "player choice" as this whole big thing?
What if I want to fuck your narrative and everyone's schemes up and make the world my own?

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

I hate that so much; weren't they touting "player choice" as this whole big thing?
What if I want to fuck your narrative and everyone's schemes up and make the world my own?

I dunno,
write a book ?
Because in any story-driven game, what you can do is always and will always be limited by what the writers anticipated and designed, i.e. the narrative.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I dunno,
write a book ?
Because in any story-driven game, what you can do is always and will always be limited by what the writers anticipated and designed, i.e. the narrative.

It's a shame we haven't reached the point where there's a "fuck the narrative" option and you can just shoot everyone and take over the world like a power-hungry bastard.

 

[Slycne]

Though I haven't played the game myself, this is just going on what other people have said. I think if Bioware had actually addressed how Lelianna was present or foreshadowed it somehow in the original nobody would be bothered by this. Or better yet, don't shove a character from the old game into the new one when it can create these problems. The fact that they make no attempt to do this doesn't result in the player being curious about her existence but rather confused.

She's only in it briefly, it's very much meant to be a reveal not a full cameo that must be justified wholly and completely.

Sorry, but to me the unexplained cameos of previously-thought-deceased Leliana and Zevran just smacked more of lazy writing than of a desire to set up a further narrative. I think if BioWare had an explanation for their appearance they would have given it in-game--though, granted, there wouldn't be much of a canonical reason to explain their survival/resurrection to a bunch of strangers...

Much as I love BioWare I'm pretty reluctant to expect too much from their cross-game continuity at this point. It's impressive that they're trying it, but--as hard as it must be to write and program--the results thus far haven't exactly been inspiring. All but the absolute biggest decisions from the first Mass Effect were resolved in the second with "thanks for completing that side quest!" emails.

I mean, yeah, it's totally possible that BioWare is coming up with an actual plot to revive our potentially deceased party members beyond an irate forum handwave--and considering how much they seem willing to change their games based on their fans' reactions that doesn't seem like too unlikely. But I ain't holdin' my breath just yet.

Leliana is the only one that shows up even if you killed her. For instance if you killed Zevran, you should not get the Murder of Crows mission. I guess I am simply not so quick to damn them over not fully explaining a character who is in the game less for less than 30 seconds, though I've been told she is also in the Exiled Prince which I don't have.

While I overall enjoyed the game, I had some legitamte problems with it. I don't consider this to be one of them unless they forget to explain it later.

 

[DigitalAtlas]

Dragon Age has always been terrible at continuity. The DLC for Origins revived my character without explaining why or anyone acknowledging what had happened.

Honestly, I don't see why this franchise is so popular. It's getting near-laughable.

 

[ryai458]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

1). It only heals, doesn't bring back from the dead.

2.) Your characters get 'knocked out' not killed. Spirit healers aren't necromancers.

Killing Leliana was a huge factor in Origins, choosing to bump off one of YOUR OWN party members felt like a massive decision. This basically says your decision doesn't matter and Bioware reserves the right to do it again in DA3

They specifically said you can still revive someone if their soul stays with the body, so she might of made a deal with a demon to stay with the body until someone can bring the body back, there is plenty of room in the lore to keep her alive.

 

[elvor0]

David Gaider, lead writer on Dragon Age 2, has declared that being 'dead' isn't such a big deal in Dragon Age 2.

Apparently Leliana was just pretending when I chopped her head off. Alrighty then.

This seems a bit contradictary, especially considering Bioware had been playing up the 'big choices that matter' in regards to their games and especially especially in how they didn't pull this in Mass Effect 2. Wrex STAYED dead.

Seems like a big retcon cover to me. Thoughts?

Source: http://social.bioware.com/%20http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6589945/2

Will BioWare commit to that level of depth? If the currently discussed situation is any indicator, prooooobably not. Easy way out that preserves writers' beloved characters for the winnnnn!

Wait how has it been indicator that they are not trying to achieve that? Gaider flat out said that if you made the choice of killing her that it still happened.

Sorry, but to me the unexplained cameos of previously-thought-deceased Leliana and Zevran just smacked more of lazy writing than of a desire to set up a further narrative. I think if BioWare had an explanation for their appearance they would have given it in-game--though, granted, there wouldn't be much of a canonical reason to explain their survival/resurrection to a bunch of strangers...

Much as I love BioWare I'm pretty reluctant to expect too much from their cross-game continuity at this point. It's impressive that they're trying it, but--as hard as it must be to write and program--the results thus far haven't exactly been inspiring. All but the absolute biggest decisions from the first Mass Effect were resolved in the second with "thanks for completing that side quest!" emails.

I mean, yeah, it's totally possible that BioWare is coming up with an actual plot to revive our potentially deceased party members beyond an irate forum handwave--and considering how much they seem willing to change their games based on their fans' reactions that doesn't seem like too unlikely. But I ain't holdin' my breath just yet.

It's a retcon only if you yourself killed her, because it was an option in a choice based game. If the official canon states that that didn't happen (which would make sense because killing Leliana is an evil act, and she's the pure one, I would imagine the official canon of DAO would be that your character was good (SHOCK HORROR!)). I would imagine most people didn't kill her, and it wasn't "Supposed" to happen in the over all story.

The reason this happens is because there isn't a method of save continuity across games like there is in Mass Effect, which is an overall trilogy focusing on Shepard and Co, Dragon Age on the other hand is a collection of stories in the Dragon Age universe, not an over all arching plot. Just because YOU killed lianna that doesn't make the writers bad or being stupid, because I would also imagine the official lore doesn't involve you killing Alister and taking on-board Lohan either. Yeah it's a bit immersion breaking if you personally killed Lilana but if the writers have decided canon-conicly she was to not be killed by the hero, then that's their choice, Much the same as Alistair not being beheaded before the final act.

Okay maybe they shouldn't have given you the option to kill her, but I imagine DAO was supposed to be a one off, which is why DA2 is so different to the first, and they had to fill in the unexpected sequal stories. It's not a plot hole.

I killed Minsc and the thief girl (I forget her name) in BG 1, but they were there in BG2, zomg FUCK YOU BIOWARE YOU SUCK! YOU'RE LAZY WRITERS! Because in the canon the hero didn't decide to be a complete evil bastard and murder his party in cold blood.

Take Prince of Persia two, there's an ending where you fail to succeed, and then the third one, you do succeed! ZOMG BAD WRITING! In a game with multiple endings, where a sequal exists the game designers have to choose one of the endings to use as canon, it's not a hard concept.

Even ignoring all that. This is a universe where people wield magic for fuck sake, it's entirely plausible the gods bought her back for trying to protect the urn, or a family member or ex lover recovered her body and got a priest to ressurect her, and now is looking for revenge against the main character or DAO.

 

[Woodsey]

1) You could kill Leliana?
2) WHY WOULD YOU KILL LELIANA?!
3) She's still at the end of DA2 if you kill her with your own hands in DAO?
4) Jesus fucking Christ, you'd think BioWare of all people would account for that, and realise they're making games that should unfold the way we want.
5) And I thought her comment about two unrelated people "disappearing" (my Warden died and she was banging him, and attended his funeral...) not being a coincidence was rather lazy, but this is rather ridiculous.

Oh, and the official canon argument above me is bullshit. Even KotOR 2 (I know it was made by Obsidian, just need a close example) had a rudimentary system for implementing your own continuity.

 

[EvilPicnic]

Why is this a big deal? Games do this ALL THE TIME.

And to be frank, I would rather a writer break canon and tell the story they wanted to tell, than restrict themselves because something MIGHT have happened in a previous game.

Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect. In ME we're expecting total congruity because it's a directly continuing story, that's ME's raison d'être. But DA is more relaxed, with multiple protagonists and multiple settings, why shouldn't there be some blurring around the edges?

Not even the canon-ific Star Trek can always keep its story straight; there are retcons all over the place in that beast of a canon.

And ultimately, if it bothers you, use your imagination. DA is a world of magic. Work it out. Maybe the writers even intend to reveal her as being revived for some unknown purpose etc. But probably not. Is it worth getting knickers in a twist over?

 

[ZeroDotZero]

Reasonable explanations:

1) Brother Genitivi (who could well have explored a bit more before leaving for Denerim) finds Leliana and manages to save her with the ashes (we only have the cultist's word that defiling them has any effect. And come on, they aren't exactly reliable sources of info).

2) After hearing rumors etc, a mage with the spirit healer specialization stumbles across her body and revives her.


And if it is a bit of hand-waving/retconning, what of it? It doesn't change DA:O, and if DA3 comes out, and the Warden runs into Leliana again, you just have her set to hate the Warden. Minor plot holes happen. /shrug

Except that you can also stick a knife in Genitivi's head as well. I look forward to the in-game explanation of how she survived when we reach DA3.

 

[secretsantaone]

Why is this a big deal? Games do this ALL THE TIME.

And to be frank, I would rather a writer break canon and tell the story they wanted to tell, than restrict themselves because something MIGHT have happened in a previous game.

Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect. In ME we're expecting total congruity because it's a directly continuing story, that's ME's raison d'être. But DA is more relaxed, with multiple protagonists and multiple settings, why shouldn't there be some blurring around the edges?

Not even the canon-ific Star Trek can always keep its story straight; there are retcons all over the place in that beast of a canon.

And ultimately, if it bothers you, use your imagination. DA is a world of magic. Work it out. Maybe the writers even intend to reveal her as being revived for some unknown purpose etc. But probably not. Is it worth getting knickers in a twist over?

If this were true, why would they use the save import feature at all?

 

[Continuity]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Ummm Fantasy game... anyone?

Seriously, its their IP they can do whatever they like with it, and as its fantasy that includes breaking the laws of nature and of physics. I mean hell thats the whole point of stuff like magic and gods and dragons and monsters in the fantasy genre, its to create an alternate and more exciting version of reality where this stuff can happen.

anyway, continuity between games doesn't really matter, so long as each game itself is coherent.

 

[MatsVS]

I can't believe I actually read this entire thread of vitriol and petty anger. I must be a masochist, or some sort of glutton for punishment. :\

She died in front of The Urn of Sacred Ashes.

I mean, c'mon.