David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

[Soviet Heavy]

I still find it amazing that people here believe we shouldn't be able to voice criticisms against this game. A minority feels neglected, and a bunch of you are just going "Shut the fuck up and stop whining Bioware's Teh Graetest!"

Who here are the fanboys?

 

[KalosCast]

She did die in a big giant room full of magic.

 

[Therumancer]

David Gaider, lead writer on Dragon Age 2, has declared that being 'dead' isn't such a big deal in Dragon Age 2.

Apparently Leliana was just pretending when I chopped her head off. Alrighty then.

This seems a bit contradictary, especially considering Bioware had been playing up the 'big choices that matter' in regards to their games and especially especially in how they didn't pull this in Mass Effect 2. Wrex STAYED dead.

Seems like a big retcon cover to me. Thoughts?

Source: http://social.bioware.com/%20http:/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6589945/2

Well yes, the thing is that Bioware is getting sloppy with their game design and writing. To be honest it would have been workable to have "Agent Nightengale" turn out to be differant people depending on the outcomes of the first game, but it would have taken a lot of work, and this is the sequel where they are re-using the same maps constantly, and having enemies spawn in waves to attack you.

The idea of a game series with meaningful desicians carrying over from chapter to chapter is an RPG-nerd's wet dream. It's quite doable, but it takes a lot of work, and it's not something your going to get with a quick cash-in like "Dragon Age II". Simply put, I think they cut every corner they possibly could with this game, and on top of that had their people heavily divided among a number of projects despite where their names might show up. As a result this wasn't a game of the general quality you'd have expected from Bioware. Their quality was because they had a crack group of people that took whatever time was needed, that doesn't seem to be the case here.


Leliana is one of the things I think about when I tell people that I don't think the writing was very good for "Dragon Age II", or at least not up to Bioware's standards. I just rarely want to give specific examples. The possibility of her being dead is one thing, but then again what about a situation where she was romancing a Gray Warden who was a mage? Indeed the final word on the subject for my character in "Origins" is that the two were seen travelling together through the land. I get the whole "disapperance" of the hero of Feralden being discussed, but it doesn't seem likely under the circumstances that Leliana would exactly be waving a "right of annulment" flag as well.

What's more, when my mage character saved Feralden, I used the request from the king to have the mages removed from the chantry's direct regulation. Among other things it should not have been illegal to be an Apostate in Feralden, and mayhaps there might be some angry religious types and hints of a civil war, but there shouldn't be Templars controlling the tower there either. I can see where the affects through the DLC would be minimal, but given the passage of time in "Dragon Age 2" I'd have expected this to be accounted for in dialogue when what's going on in other parts of the world were discussed.

It's not that Bioware couldn't have anticipated these things, and written appropriate situations and dialogue, it's just that they chose not to. Being a professional company though they aren't going to come out and say they did a bad job, rushed, or got sloppy. We'll just have to see if they do better in the future.

Simply put Nightengale having differant identities depending on the events of the first game wouldn't have been hard to pull off. It's no worse than say the beginning of Awakening where your encounter with the ruler and the exact dialogue depends on who is on the throne. One of my Warden's for example was a male, human-noble, who would up marrying the queen, making him the king-consort or whatever. This was actually accounted for, and it was very differant from the game with where I had Alistair on the throne, and my elven mage got together with Leliana.

Having a couple of differant characters who could be Nightengale and a couple differant sets of dialogue for each would have been all it would have taken.

 

[secretsantaone]

How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent £40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Because 40 Euroes is suddenly enough money to make you head project manager at Bioware? Buying a book you don't like doesn't mean you even should go and tell off the author because the ending you guessed was wrong and you liked yours better.

No, but it does mean that you have every right to criticise it if it has glaring plot holes.

You're seriously suggesting that anyone who was unhappy with the game shouldn't be allowed to give any negative feedback whatsoever?

 

[Feylynn]

Everything lined up in my DA2 game so I have no complaints.
Which is funny because my Dragon Age 1 campaign didn't line up with itself and I still had no complaints.

Every other sentence people would not shut up about 'King Alistair' I assume they got the wrong game and did a little to much Skooma because my friend made it expressly clear how much he didn't want to be king and Anora seemed entirely competent. Also, was very nice to me.
They also thought I ended up with Zevran, which never remotely happened, there was an unrequited love with Alistair, he remained just friends due to my Rogue's penchant for agreeing with Morrigan.
They glitched my Leliana out of existence as well, incapable of being spoken to or have her standing with me changed at all. Even after I broke the urn she didn't care, I told her politely to leave because her zombie stare was bothering my dog Ser Myzery the 9th.
I know they got other stuff wrong to, not to mentioned the Awakenings sync.

Of all that DA2 had nothing out of order. (Well, not with it's game sync. It had some fatal pacing and focus issues)

Edit: To more specifically address this topic. BioWare did not include a command to physical confirm their death. Every fantasy has there random friendly bystanders find corpse and nurse back to health in nick of time, or divine figure intervenes for faithful follower.

Don't take everything so literally, fill in the blanks for yourself, rewrite the story however you want, ignore any part you want. It is your purchase to do so, it is your roleplaying.
But don't expect the writers to conform to that vision, it's their story.

 

[Cheesepower5]

How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent £40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Because 40 Euroes is suddenly enough money to make you head project manager at Bioware? Buying a book you don't like doesn't mean you even should go and tell off the author because the ending you guessed was wrong and you liked yours better.

No, but it does mean that you have every right to criticise it if it has glaring plot holes.

You're seriously suggesting that anyone who was unhappy with the game shouldn't be allowed to give any negative feedback whatsoever?

No, that would be rather stupid.

I just don't think a 10 page flame war is totally necessary.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

Eh, as long as they offer an explanation for how the head re-grew I guess it's ok.

 

[StBishop]

Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

I'm noticing a lot of spoilers around these days.

I remember a time when spoiler tags were used to hide spoilers rather than images or YouTube clips.

That video was a version someone made without my knowledge.

EDIT: In otherwords.... you got a problem with the spoilers, talk to Mandalore.

Go look at my Youtube page, my version's only spoiler is that Shepard punches people.

Sorry, wasn't a personal attack. I was meaning in general on the site.

I'm actually a fan. Sorry bro.

Regardless, I'm seeing people use the spoiler tags more for "What song would play in this situation?" threads than to hide spoilers.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

[
Sorry, wasn't a personal attack. I was meaning in general on the site.

I'm actually a fan. Sorry bro.

Regardless, I'm seeing people use the spoiler tags more for "What song would play in this situation?" threads than to hide spoilers.

Aha... no probs dude. I had a lot of people bitching at me over spoilers in that Shepard vid even though I had nothing to do with it and presumed you were doing the same

 

[Throwitawaynow]

You get set options of what happened in the past when you start your game. This thread is pointless.

 

[Anah'ya]

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

 

[Saelune]

Well, in a world of magic, the dead are rarely ever truly out of the picture.

 

[The Hairminator]

Angry fangirlism and sarcastic bile-spewing

Speaking of plot holes, imagine my surprise when Alistair (The dead king) walked through the gates of my castle in Awakening. Frankly I was too happy to see him to bother about trivialities such as "he should have been dead" and so on.

 

[Anah'ya]

Angry fangirlism and sarcastic bile-spewing

Speaking of plot holes, imagine my surprise when Alistair (The dead king) walked through the gates of my castle in Awakening. Frankly I was too happy to see him to bother about trivialities such as "he should have been dead" and so on.

That is not a plot hole though, that is just messed up. Alistair died for my mage, and Anora showed up at the gates. Are you sure you imported the right save?

And Oi! Minion! If I was an angry fan-girl I would not have listed 2 (of the numerous) small plot holes that Dragon Age 2 is boasting. Also, why are you reading this? Aren't you always all worked up over spoilers?

 

[Royta]

You get set options of what happened in the past when you start your game. This thread is pointless.

We're talking about importing a save from DAO. In which you can kill a major character who simply revives in DA2 no matter what happened to her in DAO.
That's the issue.

Your post is pointless.

 

[Shadowkire]

Summary of thread:
"I killed Leliana but she showed up in the sequel!/cry. Why doesn't Bioware bend over backwards to make everything I do matter?/crymore"

And the people saying the Mass Effect saga is better because it doesn't declare what is canon are not thinking it through. Dieing in ME2 is a direct effect of your choices, and a pretty big effect. Yet by the very existence of a third game with the same character all your important choices are rendered void.

And was killing either Zevran or Leliana really that important? One is a crow assassin, if he didn't have a name there would be no difference between him or the HUNDREDS of other crows I killed. So who the f*** cares if he shows up and gives me a quest, think of him as some other rogue assassin. And then there is Leliana, a retired spy... yeah killing her is sooooo important and therefore should never appear again.

When this happens in the next DA or ME game, read/imagine the characters' names backwards and envision my middle finger where their faces are and you won't be so butt-hurt about it.(probably not though)

Bioware has said (And it's stated in a loading screen in-game) that if Shep dies at the end of ME2, ME3 won't accept that import save and you'll have to make a new Shepard. Have you even played the game?

And yeah, Leliana and Zevran were pretty important, they weren't just random people you met in sidequests who showed up once. They were (Or at least had the potential to be) your party memebers during the game. If I don't recruit Leliana, or kill Zevran when I first meet him, they shouldn't show up in the second game like they joined my group anyway. It's just lazy and Gaider's being completely unprofessional about it.

Oh, and your pretentious tone is more than a little frustrating.

Yes I did play ME2, and I did know that about ME3. THAT was the point. Shepard's death as a direct consequence of your choices is more important than the fate of important side characters, and yet people are saying Mass Effect is better at containing their choices. This is not true because ME3 declares that the choices made by the people who got Shep killed are now made void so the story can go on.

Leliana and Zevran were important and you can technically claim they were met in side quests. They were so unimportant that you can start a new game and not let them join your party and the only thing different in the rest of the game is two less side quests and love interests.

 

[Shadowkire]

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

I tip my hat to you for your great wisdom.

 

[IronicBeet]

Summary of thread:
"I killed Leliana but she showed up in the sequel!/cry. Why doesn't Bioware bend over backwards to make everything I do matter?/crymore"

And the people saying the Mass Effect saga is better because it doesn't declare what is canon are not thinking it through. Dieing in ME2 is a direct effect of your choices, and a pretty big effect. Yet by the very existence of a third game with the same character all your important choices are rendered void.

And was killing either Zevran or Leliana really that important? One is a crow assassin, if he didn't have a name there would be no difference between him or the HUNDREDS of other crows I killed. So who the f*** cares if he shows up and gives me a quest, think of him as some other rogue assassin. And then there is Leliana, a retired spy... yeah killing her is sooooo important and therefore should never appear again.

When this happens in the next DA or ME game, read/imagine the characters' names backwards and envision my middle finger where their faces are and you won't be so butt-hurt about it.(probably not though)

Bioware has said (And it's stated in a loading screen in-game) that if Shep dies at the end of ME2, ME3 won't accept that import save and you'll have to make a new Shepard. Have you even played the game?

And yeah, Leliana and Zevran were pretty important, they weren't just random people you met in sidequests who showed up once. They were (Or at least had the potential to be) your party memebers during the game. If I don't recruit Leliana, or kill Zevran when I first meet him, they shouldn't show up in the second game like they joined my group anyway. It's just lazy and Gaider's being completely unprofessional about it.

Oh, and your pretentious tone is more than a little frustrating.

Yes I did play ME2, and I did know that about ME3. THAT was the point. Shepard's death as a direct consequence of your choices is more important than the fate of important side characters, and yet people are saying Mass Effect is better at containing their choices. This is not true because ME3 declares that the choices made by the people who got Shep killed are now made void so the story can go on.

Leliana and Zevran were important and you can technically claim they were met in side quests. They were so unimportant that you can start a new game and not let them join your party and the only thing different in the rest of the game is two less side quests and love interests.

I think you're missing the point about what people are mad about here. The people who killed Leliana/Zevran/Whoever aren't mad that Bioware isn't making their choice specifically canon to the series, they're mad that if they import a save where someone died, that person just appearing anyway with no effort made to replace them with someone else or even add a line of dialogue mentioning their "death" is bullshit and Gaider's just saying "WE DA WRITERS WE MAKE DA RULES STOP CRITICIZING ME" to the people who brought it up is incredibly unprofessional.

 

[Shadowkire]

snip

I think you're missing the point about what people are mad about here. The people who killed Leliana/Zevran/Whoever aren't mad that Bioware isn't making their choice specifically canon to the series, they're mad that if they import a save where someone died, that person just appearing anyway with no effort made to replace them with someone else or even add a line of dialogue mentioning their "death" is bullshit and Gaider's just saying "WE DA WRITERS WE MAKE DA RULES STOP CRITICIZING ME" to the people who brought it up is incredibly unprofessional.

Where did Gaider say that? The screenshot of his posts from the OP said "You thought you killed them but actually they survived somehow, and to the people who are going to rant and rave that they should remain dead anyways: I won't get into an argument with you."

Seriously, go reread it just to refresh your view of his words. I guess a person could interpret those words more negatively but not as bad as you claim(unless there is more out there for me to see)

 

[Anah'ya]

Yes I did play ME2, and I did know that about ME3. THAT was the point. Shepard's death as a direct consequence of your choices is more important than the fate of important side characters, and yet people are saying Mass Effect is better at containing their choices. This is not true because ME3 declares that the choices made by the people who got Shep killed are now made void so the story can go on.

Leliana and Zevran were important and you can technically claim they were met in side quests. They were so unimportant that you can start a new game and not let them join your party and the only thing different in the rest of the game is two less side quests and love interests.

He is making a point. Of course people can now argue "But why can I import my DA:O and Leliana is alive?!" -- and they are blatantly ignoring that BioWare is trying to provide a better slate to base future content on; which demanded of them to make decisions that would help them on the long run. And Lelianas' fate was one of them.

*tips her hat*

At that note, imagine how many people will complain once ME3 comes out about not being allowed to import their dead Shepard. But Shepard is dead, how can ME3 have a Shepard! NAAARRRRRGH! There will be complaints about it, that's just how RPG fans are. They will complain no matter what route you take.