David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

[Trolldor]

snip

I think you're missing the point about what people are mad about here. The people who killed Leliana/Zevran/Whoever aren't mad that Bioware isn't making their choice specifically canon to the series, they're mad that if they import a save where someone died, that person just appearing anyway with no effort made to replace them with someone else or even add a line of dialogue mentioning their "death" is bullshit and Gaider's just saying "WE DA WRITERS WE MAKE DA RULES STOP CRITICIZING ME" to the people who brought it up is incredibly unprofessional.

Where did Gaider say that? The screenshot of his posts from the OP said "You thought you killed them but actually they survived somehow, and to the people who are going to rant and rave that they should remain dead anyways: I won't get into an argument with you."

Seriously, go reread it just to refresh your view of his words. I guess a person could interpret those words more negatively but not as bad as you claim(unless there is more out there for me to see)

Gaider is a shit writer. He included the characters he wanted and is going to magic some bullshit excuse out of his arse as to why they somehow managed to become resurrected from the grave.
If I killed Lelianna she should stay dead. There shouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina device which revives her so the plot can continue in the way Gaider wanted it too.
What is the point of giving me the option to kill Lelianna if the game treats it as if it never happened?

 

[Ishiro32]

Where did Gaider say that? The screenshot of his posts from the OP said "You thought you killed them but actually they survived somehow, and to the people who are going to rant and rave that they should remain dead anyways: I won't get into an argument with you."

Seriously, go reread it just to refresh your view of his words. I guess a person could interpret those words more negatively but not as bad as you claim(unless there is more out there for me to see)

So... It isn't saying. "So what? You decapitate them but they got better. And i won't talk about it more because this is how it should be... wark wark... "
Listen you chopped her head of, and "they survived somehow". And saying that "I won't get into an argument with you." is just mean because we want to know how?

The problem with this is not that she is alive. Propably is just the save, save have flags only on few things so propably it would be a problem to import every information since they didn't predict it. But... You remember Baldurs Gate? And drizzt? In first you could kill him, he was just random encounter kinda. In baldurs gate 2, if you import he is not there (classic), but if you didn't import character, drizzt is still there, but he kinda ask you did you kill him. Do you see where i'm going. They knew that this character could be dead so they gived an option to tell him, right i killed you in last game, so you will be angry now and attack me or whatever. In this game those character even thought you could kill them just talk without saying anything, like it never happend. It's stupid. It's like IT NEVER HAPPEND.
Ok Dragon age is huge etc. but you know what? If lead writer doesn't actknowaldge his mistakes or he just ignore our questions. It's anoying. In DA2 they put a lot characters that could be dead, just because they were popular. If you give us option, stick with it, that's how rpg should be done, or at least tell us why it happend, don't ignore us.

And for those knights who defend his decision to revive them etc. I also like bioware, but where are mistakes or flaws we as fans should point them out, so they could fix it and so they could make better games. Games are for us. Don't defend them, they don't need it...
When you love company you don't have pink glasses and ignore flaws. You should give them money when they did great job, and if there are small mistakes, correct them because they are humans and they make mistakes. And if they create bad game, don't give them money so they won't do it again and say what was wrong, simple love ;P.

At that note, imagine how many people will complain once ME3 comes out about not being allowed to import their dead Shepard. But Shepard is dead, how can ME3 have a Shepard! NAAARRRRRGH! There will be complaints about it, that's just how RPG fans are. They will complain no matter what route you take.

They first idea was that they couldn't play you know? They changed it, because it's nothing artistic in not playing game ;P. So they know it and propably will come up with something. Propably space vampire version 2.

 

[Anah'ya]

Gaider is a shit writer. He included the characters he wanted and is going to magic some bullshit excuse out of his arse as to why they somehow managed to become resurrected from the grave.
If I killed Lelianna she should stay dead. There shouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina device which revives her so the plot can continue in the way Gaider wanted it too.
What is the point of giving me the option to kill Lelianna if the game treats it as if it never happened?

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

Tolkien is a shit writer. How dare he throw Gandalf down with the Balrog and then have him come back?!

Joss Wheddon is a shit writer. How dare he kill Buffy, and have her come back?!

... I could continue listing other authors who have resurrected characters during the course of their stories lifespan, but that would be a very, very, very long list.

This is THEIR universe. As much as the player wants to be the centre of attention, that only works for the most linear of experiences. The moment you have choice involved you will cripple yourself. Choice is only awesome on paper. Choice will fuck you up with the sheer amount of it presented in DA:O.

They had every right to do what they did with these characters. Who are you to know whether or not they have something else planned for Leliana? Do you own their Dragon Age Bible? Know just what is possible and what is not? Do you know whether or not Leliana was actually sent by the Maker to assist the Warden, as she claimed at the beginning?

Having said that, please, go ahead and write up a comprehensive and expansive story as they have. Once you have done that and found a publisher, come back and present your work and show us just how great you are as an author.

*huffs*

I can stand people trash talking games, but insulting a writer?

*twitch*

 

[Anah'ya]

And for those knights who defend his decision to revive them etc. I also like bioware, but where are mistakes or flaws we as fans should point them out, so they could fix it and so they could make better games. Games are for us. Don't defend them, they don't need it...
When you love company you don't have pink glasses and ignore flaws. You should give them money when they did great job, and if there are small mistakes, correct them because they are humans and they make mistakes. And if they create bad game, don't give them money so they won't do it again and say what was wrong, simple love ;P.

I hope you were not referring to me as a knight there. I would feel highly offended to be referred to as such. Heavy armor weights me down too much.

Anyway.

I am standing to the defence of the writers who made a decision that the players do not agree with, while being fully capable and entitled to do so. Leliana was no plot hole, which is what people are riding it as. Leliana was a choice.

Actual plot holes are common in every RPG I have ever played which offers a storyline complex enough to fill a novel sized book. And Dragon Age 2 is no exception. If I would ever argue that Dragon Age 2 was perfect, in both design and writing, I should be struck by lighting and left to smoulder in a pile of charred meat on the floor.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

You get set options of what happened in the past when you start your game. This thread is pointless.

We're talking about importing a save from DAO. In which you can kill a major character who simply revives in DA2 no matter what happened to her in DAO.
That's the issue.

Your post is pointless.

The save you "load" is a checklist of certain set options. All other choices are irrevelant to the backstory uploaded.

Can you define major in this particular case, I played DAO I don't remember this character. Went on the wikia from there it looks like she's an optional companion that doesn't advance the plot but does have one DLC for her. I mean from my point of view to be a major character I wouldn't have been given the option to pass her up as a companion, and doing so having no effect on my game. I went to the quest in the wikia that says you can kill her, but I can't find the part. One more thing that leads me to believe her, and killing her arn't a big deal. Also, her limited involvement in only the end of DA2, and another in an optional DLC, adds more weight to her not being a major character.

In awakening she never shows up and is only mentioned once at the epilogue, if the warden had a romance with her. Lots of ifs there.

 

[Trolldor]

Gaider is a shit writer. He included the characters he wanted and is going to magic some bullshit excuse out of his arse as to why they somehow managed to become resurrected from the grave.
If I killed Lelianna she should stay dead. There shouldn't be a Deus Ex Machina device which revives her so the plot can continue in the way Gaider wanted it too.
What is the point of giving me the option to kill Lelianna if the game treats it as if it never happened?

What you don't do is "Yeah, well actually, it's our universe, and we can do what we like, because it's ours, and any pre-concieved notions you have about things like death, well they're wrong, because it's not yours, it's ours!"

I am getting fairly sick and tired of these statements. Certainly in the history of creative writing no one has ever brought anyone back from the dead for any reason whatsoever. None of the long running and very much beloved TV shows in the history of fantasy and sci-fi has EVER featured a character that died and came back.

Come to think of it, no book series of famous status has ever let a lead "die" only to see them coming back later, more bad-ass than ever. Or turned from Gray to White, for that matter.

But oh-no, BioWare did it, and it only reinforced our believe that they are incompetent and no longer pay attention to detail since, naturally, all they want to do is write "rush jobs". You know, writers don't give a fuck about their work nowadays.

Yes. It is THEIR Universe. They can do whatever they please with the characters, and that includes bringing them back from the dead since some folks decided to murder her/them in Origins. Do they owe anyone an explanation? Maybe. And maybe they will give one, or maybe they will leave it at that.

Leliana returning is not a plot hole. A plot hole is Cullen not recognizing Anders. A plot hole is Hawke taking a good year to get around and do the chore he/she was saddled with in return for an escort to a port.

Yes. DA2 has plot holes; Just like any other RPG every written has its little flaws---and I would bet my hat (in fact, I would eat it), that the writers and producers looking at them once the product is finished will cringe just as much as every player about their existence.

That said, DA2 has far less plot holes than I would expect from a game that has to take into account the massive amount of possibilities of the prequel. Because as awesome "choice" is on paper, it is a nightmare to take into account considering the sheer amount of players taking different turns. BioWare could have just as well decided to ignore Origins.

Ah what am I saying.

People would have bitched anyway.

Tolkien is a shit writer. How dare he throw Gandalf down with the Balrog and then have him come back?!

Joss Wheddon is a shit writer. How dare he kill Buffy, and have her come back?!

... I could continue listing other authors who have resurrected characters during the course of their stories lifespan, but that would be a very, very, very long list.

This is THEIR universe. As much as the player wants to be the centre of attention, that only works for the most linear of experiences. The moment you have choice involved you will cripple yourself. Choice is only awesome on paper. Choice will fuck you up with the sheer amount of it presented in DA:O.

They had every right to do what they did with these characters. Who are you to know whether or not they have something else planned for Leliana? Do you own their Dragon Age Bible? Know just what is possible and what is not? Do you know whether or not Leliana was actually sent by the Maker to assist the Warden, as she claimed at the beginning?

Having said that, please, go ahead and write up a comprehensive and expansive story as they have. Once you have done that and found a publisher, come back and present your work and show us just how great you are as an author.

*huffs*

I can stand people trash talking games, but insulting a writer?

*twitch*

I actually am a published Author, so lol.
And it was fiction too.
Double lol.

 

[Anah'ya]

I actually am a published Author, so lol.
And it was fiction too.
Double lol.

Good on you (and I will not press further in public, lest this turns personal and we do not want that)-- however I see you decided to ignore the rest of my post.

Now the question is, take this to PMs or leave it at that. I figure taking it anywhere else could be considered a waste of time, since we would probably just tear each others throats out over your dismissal of Gaider as a bad writer. Something I cannot possibly agree with since I have read far worse published fantasy novels than his Dragon Age books (The Stolen Throne and The Calling).

 

[Trolldor]

I actually am a published Author, so lol.
And it was fiction too.
Double lol.

Good on you (and I will not press further in public, lest this turns personal and we do not want that)-- however I see you decided to ignore the rest of my post.

Now the question is, take this to PMs or leave it at that. I figure taking it anywhere else could be considered a waste of time, since we would probably just tear each others throats out over your dismissal of Gaider as a bad writer. Something I cannot possibly agree with since I have read far worse published fantasy novels than his Dragon Age books (The Stolen Throne and The Calling).

I didn't feel obliged to read your post because you tried to argue that in order to criticise writing we must somehow have authored a piece of our own - absurdity to the highest degree.

When the lead writer decides it's okay to have an optional companion who can be killed or completely ignored by the player return from the dead to serve as a plot device, you have problems. There is no consistency.
The writing is shit because it's dismissive. It tells the player that really their role in the narrative doesn't matter because Bioware will pull all sorts of magic out of its arse anyway.

Gaider was the lead in Origins, so how he fucked up so badly I don't know.

 

[Anah'ya]

I didn't feel obliged to read your post because you tried to argue that in order to criticise writing we must somehow have authored a piece of our own - absurdity to the highest degree.

No, I can happily point out a score of published authors who are shite, in comparison to Gaider, at least. I made no argument that you need to be able to write your own book to judge someones work. What this interjection was all about was you showing little to no appreciation whatsoever, and this sort of blatant dismissal is rarely seen by anyone who knows how much work has to flow into writing a comprehensive piece of fiction.

When the lead writer decides it's okay to have an optional companion who can be killed or completely ignored by the player return from the dead to serve as a plot device, you have problems. There is no consistency.
The writing is shit because it's dismissive. It tells the player that really their role in the narrative doesn't matter because Bioware will pull all sorts of magic out of its arse anyway.

Gaider was the lead in Origins, so how he fucked up so badly I don't know.

... and this is where you ignored my post. Writers have been resurrecting their favourite characters for one reason or the other throughout the course of fiction. Some with coherent reasons (Gandalf -- he never did die, Buffy -- we saw the ritual), some with less (Leliana, Ellen Ripley -- she should have never died to begin with *hiss*), some with such ridiculous fervour that it makes me want to bash my head against a wall (Supernatural).

So. Again I will point out that I do not think Dragon Age 2 is perfect. The plot holes I would list are probably not the ones that most folks rage about, however, and this is not part of the discussion.

What I have been trying to say is that, without being involved in the creation of the Dragon Age setting, players may have the "right" to complain about a decision, but they do not have the right to dismiss the choice from being a valid one for the people who wrote it, because face it: While man does not have the means to return someone from the dead, for all we know it was not man who brought her back.

I can come up with a multitude of possibilities on how Leliana survived and my imagination doesn't have to stretch very far to come up with a score more for how she might have returned had she really died. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it is not perfectly valid in context of the Dragon Age setting.

For crying out loud, Anders had a fucking sword driven through him and didn't as much as flinch before he ripped the people responsible apart. "Unique circumstances" back and forth, whoever knows Leliana doesn't have some as well?

And that is just taking into account that people make the argument of having cut off Lelianas pretty red head. A weak argument at best. The times my characters in DA:O cut someones head off and then talked to them in a cutscene can barely fit on the fingers of one hand. Game mechanics. Blerk.

 

[Ishiro32]

I hope you were not referring to me as a knight there. I would feel highly offended to be referred to as such. Heavy armor weights me down too much.

Anyway.

I am standing to the defence of the writers who made a decision that the players do not agree with, while being fully capable and entitled to do so. Leliana was no plot hole, which is what people are riding it as. Leliana was a choice.

Actual plot holes are common in every RPG I have ever played which offers a storyline complex enough to fill a novel sized book. And Dragon Age 2 is no exception. If I would ever argue that Dragon Age 2 was perfect, in both design and writing, I should be struck by lighting and left to smoulder in a pile of charred meat on the floor.

Knights wear armor all the time only in D&D rpg's and cheap fantasy ;P.

Ok but replying to your argument. Fine i could accept it and go play games because, it's small mistake (i still will say that was mistake because this situation shouldn't happen... It's not good storytelling when, you know... You have option to chopped head off, and then character somehow survive). But my problem is how this situation is handeld by lead writer. I understand he has a lot of stress etc, but cutting down discusion without acknowledge of plothole (in my opinion it is) is not polite. He gave us no reason, no explanation of this situation, it is like the choice from Dragon Age:Orgins never existed. And he didn't even wrote "yeah you know, we forgot about that. We will try to add something in next patch" or "You see we know that only minority killed her, so we couldn't fit new story for people who has. Sorry for that" or "This is great secret, buy our new game/dlc you will see what kind of zombie/resurrection spells we added to game". Nothing... I don't like how it's handled more than the minor mistake.
Do you know what i mean?

As for the DA2, rushed out to make money. It was made in one year, that's too short time to make good rpg. Propably this game was rushed because of the delaying SW:TOR, maybe not, but this theory makes sense. When you look at game in this way, it is very sad... Still i hope TOR will be worth it. Can't wait ^^

 

[Zay-el]

I feel that modern gaming has become a cult of vultures, just waiting for something to fail, or someone to say something stupid, so everyone can fly in and gleefully tear it apart. The reception of Dragon Age 2 is a perfect example of it.

 

[The Funslinger]

'tis but a flesh wound!

 

[Zay-el]

I feel that modern gaming has become a cult of vultures, just waiting for something to fail, or someone to say something stupid, so everyone can fly in and gleefully tear it apart. The reception of Dragon Age 2 is a perfect example of it.

Sigh, or maybe people legitimately didn't like the game and were extremely disappointed with it.

Honestly, can't people dislike something because they dislike it anymore? Or are they always going to be accused of garbage like this?

I liked DA2, not as much as DA:O, but I did like it.

In my second DA2 play through, I used an origins save where I was a brutal son of a *****, and I slaughtered Leilana like a dog. I did a double take when she still appeared at the end. Choices in game don't amount to anything, if they are just going to be ignored like that. I certainly didn't knock her out, I slaughtered her in cold blood. She was dead.

Do I hate the game because of it? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Was I disappointed that a game that claims to give you choice, blatantly ignored mine? A little.

You know, I did not, even for a microsecond say that DA2 is stellar and is THE definite RPG experience. Because it isn't. Not by a long shot. I was merely throwing a rock at the recent practice of deep inside just waiting for something to fail, for some good old-fashion raging. This ain't exclusive to Dragon Age 2, see similar stuff for Dead Space, FFXIII, or rather yet, just about every single sequel game ever.

 

[Ishiro32]

I feel that modern gaming has become a cult of vultures, just waiting for something to fail, or someone to say something stupid, so everyone can fly in and gleefully tear it apart. The reception of Dragon Age 2 is a perfect example of it.

yes we are vultures because we demand quality. Let me just wear my glass and fly away seeking new carrion.

The reception of Dragon Age 2 is perfect example of how it backlash to your company when you market game as Gold and you don't deliver gold. The marketing before release date was anoying (the game was hyped as much as it could), and after there were a lot 9/10 reviews and 10/10 reviews which were clearly bought. And it's also propably because there were a lot of preorders from fans of orgins, and the game clearly wasn't directed to them. Then Boom, you have it, game is fun, but when you see what happend aroud it... You see, we are not vultures, we are just demanding inteligent consumers . And some guys are just trolls.

 

[Zay-el]

I don't have any bone to pick with general disappointment, to be honest. I was somewhat disappointed by DA2 as well. I merely don't understand some of the hatebombs being dropped, like this game was less playable, than Big Rigs, is all. Most of the reviews were bought, that's pretty obvious, but to claim that DA2 is the worst thing that has ever shadowed over your console or PC is also a bit outlandish. What I don't like is how the slide has seemed to have gone from 'legitimate disappointed criticism' to 'FLAAAAME DA2 EVIL KILL KILL MURDER'.

To put context into the topic as well, yeah, Gaider was pretty much just trying to somehow desperately save face, rather than admit he was wrong. I guess a little fame immediately blows your ego like a blimp.

 

[Zay-el]

I disliked FF13 because I disliked it, and I resent being told I disliked it because I just want to pick apart games for fun.

There is a very nice Hungarian saying that goes "Don't put on a coat that belongs to someone else". I was not calling names, nor did I say that everyone does that.

 

[Ishiro32]

What I don't like is how the slide has seemed to have gone from 'legitimate disappointed criticism' to 'FLAAAAME DA2 EVIL KILL KILL MURDER'.

I can also explain it. It's because of 4chan and /v/. I observed what was going there. On /v/ there was so much Viral marketing about DA2, to the point when it was anoying as hell. People where crying after the demo, but that wasn't big. It gave a lot of people distance to the marketing and hype that game had. But the marketing didn't stop. So when it came out, a lot of people had preorders. So the bomb blow out, 4chan is big crowd, the dissapoitment from the structure of game was snowballing. Trolls were pushing it faster. And what was funny, some people were still trying to market this game. They were defending it to the stupidest point.
So /v/ trolled metacritic, so /v/ raided socialbioware. It's 4chan, it was their anwser for this, this was crowd, even smartest people where downgraded to hatespeech.
Then came review at metacritic from one of dev's of DA2.
After everything some trolls still hatespeech this game, and some gamers played it. The thing is the hate they got it was the hate they created. You must understand that to play this game you need about 2 days, and hate lasted for weeks. After few days some people really made good arguments, there were a lot of critique from the community (a lot of arguemnts were ignored, like that one about dying). And at this point i understand why they couldn't hand it well. So now, you have threads like this. The situation overwhelm lead writer.


So this is the story, in my opinion. One of funniest in game industry, i never saw thing like that before. And you know what, i'm glad that we had so much hate, sure it wasn't healthy, but i hope it was just enough to make things like that never happen again.

Sorry for my English

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

This seems a bit contradictary, especially considering Bioware had been playing up the 'big choices that matter' in regards to their games and especially especially in how they didn't pull this in Mass Effect 2. Wrex STAYED dead.

Why is there a sudden expectation that my actions in one game ought to be directly related in the second. Consider Baldur's Gate, another beloved Bioware title. According to Baldur's Gate 2, I underwent the final phase of the first game with a certain party when, in reality, I only kept one of those people around (Minsc if you care). Yet in the opening act of the sequel, I find that I brought a different party and resulting in the capture of one (Imoen) and the death of another (whatever Jaheria's husband's name was).

Given the complexity inherent in carrying the various decisions forward, I think it strange to see even a subtle nod to things I did in a past game. In this very specific case however it would seem the solution is as simple as "don't have Leliana make a cameo" given that she is one of the few party members that could have been killed during the course of the game (if I'm not mistaken the list is Leliana, Wynn and Zeverhn).