David Gaider says Bioware decides what 'dead' means in Dragon Age 2

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

We really just killed her identical twin!!

No, we killed her and now her evil twin is masquerading around as her as part of her plan to take over the world! Next time on the Young and Dragonless.

Evil twin ROBOT. Because it turns out that DA takes place on a planet in the ME universe!

Planted there by the Reapers! When she gets the signal she will open up the Mass Relay to Thedas! Only Hawke and the Warden can stop her now. Which is why she is searching for them to terminate them.

And then she turns out to be a Biotic! And it's a Biotics vs Magic battle for Thedas!

And the head of the Templars turns out to be the Illusive Man! Who was using the Circles to experiment with a fusion between magic and Mass Effect fields!

 

[ImprovizoR]

Why would anyone kill Leliana anyway? I'm sure there are players like that and I understand their frustrations but I'm glad their evil plan failed *sinister laugh*

 

[Samechiel]

Leliana is a normal human.

Demons and spirits can possess anyone, even dwarves; it's just terribly more difficult to do so without a blood mage helping them out. Or in, as the case may be. Thus, demons and spirits will almost always take the path of least resistance, i.e. mages.

 

[13lackfriday]

Gaider's writing has been getting worse since the Kotor/Jade games, those were the telling points of his decline as a cohesive writer... He's been believing his own publicity too long, just because everyone and his dog has been saying that Bioware have the best writing. It's gotten to the point he thinks that gold flows from his pen, he's no longer objective about his prose and thinks that he can do no wrong.

He's now honestly unable to recognise just plain bad writing. Just because he is able to throw together any old justification for gaping plot holes and shoddy plot planning he thinks that he can excuse himself out of any situation, that's simply not true. What IS true is that his writing now is just plain sloppy and shoddy.

Bioware now are just a shadow of their former selves and becoming less relevant by the minute.

Wow, those are some pretty foreboding words coming from so new a member.

The only words similarly so harshly critical of this man would arise from all the hoopla surrounding the whole "Gay characters and [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/108722-Dragon-Age-2-Lead-Writer-Blasts-Homophobic-Fan]David Gaider" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/108826-Gay-Gamers-Want-Dragon-Age-2-Writer-Fired] incident.

Makes one wonder if a certain person would create a forum account simply to fan the fames of such a debacle.

Edit:

For the matter, I was under the impression that BioWare had done some of their best work yet with Mass Effect 2 and DAO. If sales and press have been any indication, now is BioWare's Golden Age rather than twilight years.

 

[Jaranja]

Pretty huge Mass Effect spoiler in the OP there....

It came out in 07. There has to be a cutoff point sometime.
Dear lord. I just thought of something. What if they decide to just throw the Suicide Mission out the window? Now I'm afraid.

There is no

Spoiler

cutoff point for spoilers

....

...ever.

Agreed. If someone hasn't played a game, telling them a significant part of the story is ALWAYS a spoiler.

 

[9Darksoul6]

Some dumbassery is just standard, it's just not making a drama out of it.
Who Shot Nice Guy Eddie?
What's in Marcel Wallace's briefcase?
Who actually hears him say "Rosebud"?
How does a Great White Shark blow up from swallowing an oxygen cannister?
and every time travel story ever.

Except for Primer (2004) xD.

I do agree with you, there's lots of 'dumb' writers out there, and sometimes they even make fun stories; still, there's no reason not to be offended by 'dumb' writing, or expect it not to be 'dumb'. And by 'dumb' I mean "bad".

 

[Jaranja]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Well I haven't played DA2, but from what I've heard it is a 'framed narative', told by someone who likes to exaggerate to a person he doesn't necessarily like. So it doesn't matter if you kill her or not, Varric could just include her for shits and giggles.[footnote]Remember, I have't actually played, so if I'm missing something here, feel free to tell me.[/footnote] And also, Hawke is from Lothering, and Varric knows Hawke, and Lelianna was in Lothering for a time. So Varric knowing about Lelianna isn't much of a stretch.

Nope. Leliana shows up after the story is told.

 

[Cheesepower5]

How on earth can anyone be 'self-entitled' about a game they spent £40 on?

How on earth is the unexplained revival of a major character for no good reason 'petty'?

How on earth could anyone say 'it's their game, they can do what they want with it!' when it's the consumer who actually finances and experiences the game?

Because 40 Euroes is suddenly enough money to make you head project manager at Bioware? Buying a book you don't like doesn't mean you even should go and tell off the author because the ending you guessed was wrong and you liked yours better.

 

[9Darksoul6]

If sales and press have been any indication, now is BioWare's Golden Age rather than twilight years.

Sales mean nothing;
What the press says is mostly based on sale-predictions;
Sales are mostly based on what the press says;
And so, for instance, Black Ops won a best videogame award (voted by the public).
http://www.bafta.org/awards/video-games/video-games-awards-nominees-in-2010,1656,BA.html#jump15
The whole thing is essentially circular and has very little to do with quality.

My opinion is that Bioware is losing its charm because 1) they've been using their magic 'formula' for too long 2) they're making too much stuff at the same time... and getting sloppy.

 

[putowtin]

I'll decide what dead is in my own good time Bioware!
Thank you very much!

 

[burningdragoon]

Ooh, how about this. It's all being narrated by Varric, so he's wrong.

Hehe, I almost felt like saying that in some of the dragon age 2 hate threads about the changes and stuff.

Anyway, it's understandable to be annoyed that characters you kill can come back and there are plenty of inconsistencies between these two games' stories.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the writer(s?) were talking about stuff like this and just felt like playing the odds and expected more people think "Yay Leliana!" than "Wtf, I chopped her head off!?"

This whole importing decisions/events thing is an interesting novelty, but I really think people are expecting to much from it.


Edit:

Why would anyone kill Leliana anyway?

This is definitely the bigger issue here.

 

[Internet Kraken]

You haven't even played it?

then don't you think it's a little unfair to sit their and pass judgment when you haven't played it.

First of all it's not unfair to pass judgment on a game just becuase you haven't played it. There are plenty of other ways to learn about a game's quality. But that doesn't actually matter right now. At the time of replying this thread was more about Bioware's writing overall than just Dragon Age 2. My complaints stem mostly from Mass Effect 2 and how choices were handled there.

Sometimes the direction of a story changes. I think telling a developer "You're never allowed to retcon anything. You should not give us any choices that could ever be changed as the series evolves." is unreasonable. Things change. While they may have been ready for a sequel, it is HIGHLY unlikely the final draft of DA2 was written before DA:O came out.

It is not unreasonable to demand that a company that prides itself on excellent storytelling an player choices not use retcons. If Bioware is going to tout themselves as great writers then they need to meet the standards that come with this. Part of that is not retconning out details of the story and nullifying player choices becuase they didn't plan ahead.

All this crying is going to do is discourage developers from ever giving the player choices that could impact a game. A fanbase who is so rigid and can't give an inch is going to encourage more and more linear storylines with no emotional connection to the story.

If the narrative has to be more linear to give people more choices that actually matter, then so be it. I don't want Bioware to throw a bunch of choices at me that don't actually matter. I'd much rather have a handful of choices that actually have significant impact rather than dozens that lead to no impact. There's no emotional connection to the story when Bioware just whitewashes many of your choices because they didn't plan ahead.

 

[Psycho Cat Industries]

I never knew Bioware followed comic book logic.

That is the trouble with continuing story.At some point you hit an end and keep going.

 

[Biosophilogical]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

When I played through Dragon Age II, I was glad to see Leliana turn up as she was my favourite character from DA: O, and I sure as hell didn't kill her in Origins.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was a mistake, but from the tone he takes in the comments he acts like it was meant to happen and the users are wrong for assuming a dead person stays dead.

It basically says your choices don't mean jack if Bioware doesn't like it.

Well I haven't played DA2, but from what I've heard it is a 'framed narative', told by someone who likes to exaggerate to a person he doesn't necessarily like. So it doesn't matter if you kill her or not, Varric could just include her for shits and giggles.[footnote]Remember, I have't actually played, so if I'm missing something here, feel free to tell me.[/footnote] And also, Hawke is from Lothering, and Varric knows Hawke, and Lelianna was in Lothering for a time. So Varric knowing about Lelianna isn't much of a stretch.

Nope. Leliana shows up after the story is told.

Oh, okay then. Clearly she's actually a zombie.

 

[tlozoot]

With a game that gives you a massive amount of control over what occurs in game, of course there will be little inconsistencies like this.

Personally I'd call a character being dead in one game and then alive in the sequel more than a 'little' inconsistency.

 

[MajWound]

I think Gaider needs to not get involved in internet forums. They're terrifying places filled with horrible people. No good can come of arguing with the fans, no matter who's right or wrong.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Is it just me or does it seem more like Gaider was just saying he didn't want to say anything about what happened with Leliana yet(as in, save it for the sequel) and not "fuck you, there's no errors in my story." Really, this is all being thrown way out of proportion.