Death Mechanics and Dark Souls
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I like the way Dungeons of Dredmor ( and other roguelikes) do it. If your character dies, your character is dead and it's time to roll up a new character.
That's why Dark Souls and its predecessor are all about opening shortcuts as you go along. Take the Taurus Demon... your first go through, you'll clear all the zombies including rooftops, get owned by the fire trap, fight the big black knight, go up the tower and start fighting Taurus. Good times, then you die. By the 10th time, you'll probably just sprint down the bridge until the bit of broken wall, roll and fall down to the ledge guarded by the black knight, and sprint up the stairs to the tower with those zombie knights half-heartedly chasing you. There's a little danger, but it's a speedy run compared to the first go through. Just at a guess there are never more than 10 enemies on the shortest route from a bonfire to the next boss or area. That bonfire might be hidden and/or a trap, but it's still there and the rule holds.walrusaurus said:
Personally I think Dark Souls' death and revival mechanisms are the best videogaming's ever had it.
Compared with other RPGs, failure and revival are part of the story instead of an ugly vestige of videogaming's roots in quarter-eating arcade cabinets. Compare with FFXIII, Deus Ex, Fallout, any of them: those stories have no answer for those times when the best-laid efforts of a whole programming staff result in someone finally managing to off your character(s). As a player, you can only get in the way of the story... at best you get the sense of keeping things on-script, and otherwise the whole production comes screeching to a halt. For a compulsive enough player, it's like watching the filming of a movie, instead of the movie itself... CUT! used too many bullets. CUT! come on, you could have dodged that. CUT!! do-over on that last level-up. The inevitable failures don't break immersion, and the save system isn't prone to all kinds of perfectionist gaming.
At the same time, Dark Souls' cranks the stakes WAY up when it comes to death as well. You feel it deep in your guts when you die just short of reclaiming a big pile of souls, or in your human state - especially with a couple phantoms helping you. Sure a lot of the time you can throw your character off a cliff with no other consequences than a good laugh, but knock off a boss or two and the exact same game mechanics have you fighting desperately for survival.
The thing is dark souls isn't about pure skill, it's more about patience.You have to pace yourself, keep your shield up, and keep yourself from getting greedy.Terramax said:
What kind of payoff are you looking for? The locations are nice and varied ranging from ruined castles, swampy shanty towns, crystallized libraries, and icy worlds inside paintings.
Dark souls isn't a game to have fast paced awesome soundtrack because it goes against the atmosphere. What music there is is there to help the atmosphere.
The combat is already tight, and there is a massive variety of unique weapons to choose from. There are 17 different categories of weapons that each fight differently, and each weapon is usually different from the others in the same category. Also this is the only game i ever played where straight swords and scimitars fight differently, and the only game that actually implemented rapiers properly.
Dark souls is a different game. It's slow and rewards restraint, cautiousness, and preparation over just skill. It's different from a lot of other challenging games that reward reaction and speed. It's a niche game. It's not lacking in payoff, it just goes about it a different way.
I think the reason people say Dark Souls gets better is that the further you get into the less you care about leveling up and since level ups are more expensive than everything else it's not so big a deal when you lose a bunch of souls. My characters around lvl 45 right now and giving a +1 to any of his stats just doesn't do much for making me stronger. One more point of strength gives him +4 damage but spending a 5th as many souls upgrading his sword gives him +40 damage.
Exactly, the path to reach the Tauros Demon (plus the fight itself) is the harderst part of the game because the player is still learning how to play, after beating the boss he will be ready to fight multiple enemies and while he may still die from time to time he will have control over the battle and understand what has to be done to win.MiracleOfSound said:
You know what I find strangest in this article about failure conditions, death, flow, the disconnect between games with challenges and win/lose conditions and interactive experiences? That in the entire article loss is instantly equated into death. I just feel it's very strange that we are constantly discussing immersion and storytelling and interactive experiences yet we still instantly jump to death and enemies as obstacles. That we can't evolve past "You kill the things" to win or "You get dead, kid" as a lost. I don't want to come off as one of those violent games are evil type but I just find it strange that we get hung up and use death and combat as central themes regardless of the story or message games are trying to tell.
Nice article, I honestly don't know how we can remedy the problem since depending on your views or personal preference the act of coming back to life can both break the flow of plot and the gameplay.
Nice article, I honestly don't know how we can remedy the problem since depending on your views or personal preference the act of coming back to life can both break the flow of plot and the gameplay.
Yeah, the idea of infinite lives seems kinda arbitrary if you have to go through a "Game Over" screen everytime you die. Perfect example for me would be God of War 3. Love the game to death, but I'm playing through the hardest difficulty right now, and the game treats me like an idiot, asking me if I would like to quit the game or load my previous checkpoint everytime I die. This breaks the flow of the game, and just aggravates me, causing me to die more.
No God of War 3, I don't wanna quit. Now load up my last checkpoint so I can get back to murdering Gods. If i wanna quit the game, I'll choose to from the options screen, or just turn the system off!
No God of War 3, I don't wanna quit. Now load up my last checkpoint so I can get back to murdering Gods. If i wanna quit the game, I'll choose to from the options screen, or just turn the system off!
I played Treasure Island Dizzy when I was a kid and can honestly say that I beat it! It was one of the hardest games I ever played... but I stuck with it anyway.. all the way through the kick in the balls ending.
I tell you this though, if you do manage to beat TID, Dark Souls will be a walk in the park!
I was going to post a link to an emulator I found today where you could experience the difficult masterpiece that Treasure Island Dizzy is, however after doing a little research, it seems that CodeMasters still won't allow online distribution of the game (any of their games) for some reason (According to World of Spectrum). So posting a link to the emulator would be posting a link to copyrighted material.. which is a real shame.
I tell you this though, if you do manage to beat TID, Dark Souls will be a walk in the park!
I was going to post a link to an emulator I found today where you could experience the difficult masterpiece that Treasure Island Dizzy is, however after doing a little research, it seems that CodeMasters still won't allow online distribution of the game (any of their games) for some reason (According to World of Spectrum). So posting a link to the emulator would be posting a link to copyrighted material.. which is a real shame.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YATHZEE YOU FOOL!!!!! ONE NORMALY GETS MENTALY BROKEN AFTER PLAYING A BAD MMORPG LIKE GLOBAL MU ONLINE, NOT A NORMAL RPG!!! And we are in the first month of the year!! What horrors will get the aprobal of Yathzee now that he is unable to care???
I think that one's own learning curve does help in some instances of the lives/death mechanics, as well as in Dark/Demon's Souls. I did not take long to figure out how to play the game, but When I started I had felt like I was playing an MMO grinding the early guys till I got enough levels to wipe the next area of baddies by shear force. I quickly changed and got more skilled and adaptive to enemies by waiting, watching, and learning patterns of enemies before just jumping head long into an area. I started to enjoy the thrill of almost death, but narrow escape though sheer luck, skill, or will power. Helping others also helped learn patterns for bosses which I then took unto my own world, not withstanding getting help from people for bosses makes the world Very easy. But I do know what you mean the 'Zone of I don't care, get shit done now' Though that usually only hits me when I work (insert winking smile here)
I believe thats a feeling MMO players get too when they have to grind to the next level. I sure as hell remember that until i manage to step back and asked myself "WHY?" then boredom washed over me and i hated regular cooldown watching MMOs.
I'm about half way through Dark Souls and I actually really enjoy the game. I love deep RPGs and I love difficult games, so Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are perfect for me. I've never found emotional numbness while playing either game though, I feel that the games are pretty fair so I don't rage at them often. When I do start to get mad at the game I just take a break for an hour or so to cool off and the boss or area I was stuck on seems a lot easier. Just sharing my opinion on the game for anyone who cares and anyone who plays on 360 and enjoys the game should add me. I'm curious if you can summon your friends and I really need some people to play with.
Wait, doesn't Yahtzee purposely neglect multi-player components when he reviews anyway?
Why is Dark Souls any different then? I played both Dark and Demons without the online component and still consider them top notch experiences. HYPOCRISY!
Ah well, maybe when hes bored in June or something he'll cave.
Why is Dark Souls any different then? I played both Dark and Demons without the online component and still consider them top notch experiences. HYPOCRISY!
Ah well, maybe when hes bored in June or something he'll cave.
Wow, I'm playing Dark Souls for the 1st time (I never played Demon's Souls) and the game is not hard. I've made it through whole dungeons and bosses without dying once, and I'm not using a walkthrough either. You just have to take it slow, pull enemies to you one at a time, and understand how the games systems work (like how weapon scaling works, how magic works, etc.). You have to make sure you have a few combat options open to you like you should use a crossbow or bow and arrow (if you're a Dex-based character), have some magic (go with sorcery or miracles, not both), and pick a few weapons to level since leveling weapons is more important than leveling your character.
I started running into that mind breaking problem there at the end in some multiplayer games i play. It made me realise "Yahtzee is right," and so i've converted to Croshaw-ism and began shunning every multiplayer aspect in a game. Then guess what happened? I ACTUALLY enjoyed playing games more 
who would have thought?
-In seriosness games are meant to be enjoyed and any game that even allows for a moment that would make you angry at it or others is not enjoyable. It's not fun to be mad, and a game that is not fun is not worth playing clarity is nice.
who would have thought? -In seriosness games are meant to be enjoyed and any game that even allows for a moment that would make you angry at it or others is not enjoyable. It's not fun to be mad, and a game that is not fun is not worth playing
clarity is nice.
Got me right between the eyes. I do dull office work. Shit man. What the fuck am I doing with my life?
It always amazes me, because all my friends get horribly pissed off playing MW3 or (multiplayer shooter here, I'm not just picking on COD). They scream profanities, call bull, and by and large seem to utterly hate the experience. But they buy every new shooter and spend months fixed on each.cricket chirps said:I started running into that mind breaking problem there at the end in some multiplayer games i play. It made me realise "Yahtzee is right," and so i've converted to Croshaw-ism and began shunning every multiplayer aspect in a game. Then guess what happened? I ACTUALLY enjoyed playing games more
-In seriosness games are meant to be enjoyed and any game that even allows for a moment that would make you angry at it or others is not enjoyable. It's not fun to be mad, and a game that is not fun is not worth playing
And I really don't get why they punish themselves so much.
lol Yahtzee, you never went through the horror of the Tomb of Giants. That was way more scary than any Amnesia moments or Silent hill moments. I remember u said once something along the lines of that the kind of horror that makes you wonder what is ahead or behind IS the best -if not only- kind of horror.
It is indeed a shame you never went past the first boss, while by no means i can declare myself a pro gamer, i killed that boss in the second try. And by a shame i dont mean by your skills or tastes, no, i mean that if u kept playing you would start an odessy of awe, horror and even pity of the less fortunate than your already unfortunate character.
The crystal cave, the hydras, the secret beach, hell, the catacombs and tomb of giants all of them make you fully think you are inside there, making the best of your resources in order to stay alive and by al means to think fast of a strategy to come out victorious. But also to reveal the story, although simple, very inmersive.
I would by all means suggest to play the game past the gargoyles twin bosses, after those you would have got a hold of the game. But patience is required, even i that spent more than 120 hours in demon souls had a hard time in the way to the gargoyles.
It is indeed a shame you never went past the first boss, while by no means i can declare myself a pro gamer, i killed that boss in the second try. And by a shame i dont mean by your skills or tastes, no, i mean that if u kept playing you would start an odessy of awe, horror and even pity of the less fortunate than your already unfortunate character.
The crystal cave, the hydras, the secret beach, hell, the catacombs and tomb of giants all of them make you fully think you are inside there, making the best of your resources in order to stay alive and by al means to think fast of a strategy to come out victorious. But also to reveal the story, although simple, very inmersive.
I would by all means suggest to play the game past the gargoyles twin bosses, after those you would have got a hold of the game. But patience is required, even i that spent more than 120 hours in demon souls had a hard time in the way to the gargoyles.