Debunking The Saints Row IV Whining

[Evonisia]

It's a good job that "Focusing on goofy is crap, because look at SR:TT" is still a valid argument. I don't care if it looks like DLC. Saints Row: The Third was practically SR2 DLC, just with less features, being more linear and it was far too goofy. Everything I've heard about Saints Row IV has basically told me that we're not going to get a proper sequel to Saints Row 2 any time soon (and I've said that SR2 has no sequel ever since I heard that SR:TT had the wider audience in mind rather than fans).

In fact, seeing as they're inevitably going to highlight the goofy, I'm glad that it looks exactly that The Third.

 

[mad825]

This reminds me of back before Fallout New Vegas was released. People kept saying that it was just a DLC or should have been one because it used the exact same engine and so on. Considering how much there is to do in the game, as well as the fact that a significant amount of people consider it to surpass Fallout 3 in almost every way, it is kind of amusing to recall the scepticism people had back then.

Apples and oranges mate.

Obsidian were able to cut so many corners(legitimately) that they should have done something good. Most of the ideas were built upon popular pre-existing mods for FO3, not even to mention that they were using an SDK that was even user friendly for some fairly inexperienced modders/programmers. It was essentially "more of the same" with more stuff.

SR3 was "more of the same" with removed features. Recycled and cut side-missons, Recycled (from SR2, SR1?) building/car textures, reduced amount of songs and merged storyline. Hell, why was Gat inexplicably cut from the game?

From the looks of things the "new" SR3 engine didn't change much other than take things away.

 

[Savagezion]

2. It looks like a DLC
This complaint is actually different from the first one - the first one goes after how the roots of the game where apparently from a DLC, while this one is just them attacking it because they think it *looks* like it should've been a DLC.
Well, yes. It's going to have the same engine, graphics, and map because it was made alongside Saints Row the Third. Wah. Meanwhile, it's a 24 hour game (which isn't something DLCs /do/), has new enemies, buildings, powers, guns, customization options, gameplay, vehicles, storyline, characters, and minigames.
Which, if you'd recall, Saints Row 2 and Saints Row 3 had as well, thus categorizing Saints Row IV as a new game and not deserving of DLC status.

Then it is official and DLC was a way for devs to charge more for the same content as expansions. I have seen this "prophecy of naysayers" coming true more and more over the past two years.

I have never played a Saints Row Game as I am not all that interested in the IP. I own SR3 due to a bundle package on Steam and haven't even touched it.

However, your post has given me all the information I need to see that this "full game" is actually what used to be refered to as an "expansion". Same map in the same engine but with new enemies, buildings, powers, guns, customizable options, etc. All balled into a 24 hour experience. Most expansions fell in around 20 hours - but full games also used to fall in at about 40. I remember people hissing and spitting about DLC taking the place of expansions saying they would end up charging you more for the same thing - or worse, charging you more for less. I was torn at the time and could see a benefit to both. Bethesda is a good example of DLC done well, despite that I don't care much for their games overall. The Sims 3 is a great example of it done wrong where the base game is bare bones and every little thing costs you. A while back someone made a post about buying Sims 3 and all its add ins on Steam would cost over $500. Much of which is basic skins and models. Basically cosmetic options.

Stuff like this you mention:
New enemies
New guns
New customization options
New powers
New buildings
New vehicles
New characters

That stuff is all run of the mill expansion stuff. Especially considering the game is a sandbox. This leaves:
New gameplay (Which expansions usually add due to the above listed items)
New story (Many expansion tend to carry on a story further - not sure if that is the case here.)
New Minigames

I can't help but agree with this argument against the game just by looking at what I have read. To me, this doesn't look like a full game. It looks like an expansion being sold as a new game. I disagree with practices like this. I may not be seeing the full picture here, I'll admit. But from my perspective this looks like some small retextures and a new price tag.

 

[GonzoGamer]

But sr4 did start off as a dlc for sr3, so that's actually a valid complaint. Then again, if you really liked sr3, it's a selling point.

Is calling it a Prototype rip-off a complaint? What if you liked Prototype (I did), which in itself is a ripoff of Hulk Ultimate Destruction? I'd say calling it a prototype ripoff is a complement.

I love threads where people whine about people whining. It reminds me of that George Carlin line "Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?"

 

[lacktheknack]

It's totally using ideas from Crackdown and Prototype.

That's not a whine, that's a hurray.

This.

Why would I be sad that it's taking cues from good superhero games?

2. It looks like a DLC
This complaint is actually different from the first one - the first one goes after how the roots of the game where apparently from a DLC, while this one is just them attacking it because they think it *looks* like it should've been a DLC.
Well, yes. It's going to have the same engine, graphics, and map because it was made alongside Saints Row the Third. Wah. Meanwhile, it's a 24 hour game (which isn't something DLCs /do/), has new enemies, buildings, powers, guns, customization options, gameplay, vehicles, storyline, characters, and minigames.
Which, if you'd recall, Saints Row 2 and Saints Row 3 had as well, thus categorizing Saints Row IV as a new game and not deserving of DLC status.

Then it is official and DLC was a way for devs to charge more for the same content as expansions. I have seen this "prophecy of naysayers" coming true more and more over the past two years.

I have never played a Saints Row Game as I am not all that interested in the IP. I own SR3 due to a bundle package on Steam and haven't even touched it.

However, your post has given me all the information I need to see that this "full game" is actually what used to be refered to as an "expansion". Same map in the same engine but with new enemies, buildings, powers, guns, customizable options, etc. All balled into a 24 hour experience. Most expansions fell in around 20 hours - but full games also used to fall in at about 40. I remember people hissing and spitting about DLC taking the place of expansions saying they would end up charging you more for the same thing - or worse, charging you more for less. I was torn at the time and could see a benefit to both. Bethesda is a good example of DLC done well, despite that I don't care much for their games overall. The Sims 3 is a great example of it done wrong where the base game is bare bones and every little thing costs you. A while back someone made a post about buying Sims 3 and all its add ins on Steam would cost over $500. Much of which is basic skins and models. Basically cosmetic options.

Stuff like this you mention:
New enemies
New guns
New customization options
New powers
New buildings
New vehicles
New characters

That stuff is all run of the mill expansion stuff. Especially considering the game is a sandbox. This leaves:
New gameplay (Which expansions usually add due to the above listed items)
New story (Many expansion tend to carry on a story further - not sure if that is the case here.)
New Minigames

I can't help but agree with this argument against the game just by looking at what I have read. To me, this doesn't look like a full game. It looks like an expansion being sold as a new game. I disagree with practices like this. I may not be seeing the full picture here, I'll admit. But from my perspective this looks like some small retextures and a new price tag.

What I read: "Every single sequel ever is an expansion".

Which is kind of hilarious, considering that Saints Row sequels have always been not very sequel-like, in that they actually totally change their tone (and even their subgenre) from game to game.

 

[Xarathox]

It's totally using ideas from Crackdown and Prototype.

That's not a whine, that's a hurray.

This. Well, except the fact that I never played Prototype, so I can't be objective about it. However, SR4 looks like Crackdown on steroids. I will gladly pay full price for my copy since I am not disappoint with what I've seen. Hell, the moment I found out I could romance Kinzie Kensington I've been throwing my wallet at my screen.

 

[Doom972]

Only 24 hours long? For a stand-alone sandbox game that's pretty short. I guess I'll get it when it becomes really cheap if that's the case. Maybe they should've released it as DLC.

compare a possible 24 hour game where as I beat it's predecessor in just over 16 hours.

including all the collections, hit lists, carjackings, challenges, gang operations, and activities.


so another eight hours of gameplay really isn't bad.



About to head to the nearest gamestop, which is actually 100 miles away, because LOL, RURAL AMERICA, to get it and trade in some really shitty games.


HEre's hoping that Black Ops II gets about $20, with all the fanboys waiting for Ghosts, someone is going to want to buy it.


who am I kidding, I'll probably get $5 and an offer to join the point club thing and/or preorder a Xbox One.

You finished everything in SR3 in 16 hours? According to Steam, it took me about 50. Enjoy SR4.

 

[Maxtro]

Uh, it was supposed to originally be an expansion pack. That is common knowledge.

Enter the Dominatrix
http://saintsrow.wikia.com/wiki/Enter_The_Dominatrix

 

[Savagezion]

What I read: "Every single sequel ever is an expansion".

Which is kind of hilarious, considering that Saints Row sequels have always been not very sequel-like, in that they actually totally change their tone (and even their subgenre) from game to game.

Same engine, graphics, and map. In a sandbox game. As I said before, I don't know if this is a continuation story of DLC or what. But using the same map on the same engine in a sandbox game? You read wrong. GTA 1-4 + San Andreas didn't use any of the same maps. As a matter of fact I can't think of a game that uses the same static map in its sequel as in it's predecessor. Now, as I said I am unfamiliar with the story of SR games but if this is a continuation of a previous story, yeah it is a full dead on expansion. That is what expansions do. It is an expansion onto the game and the story. If this is a completely new and separate story with its own rising and falling action in the plot then it could be a proper sequel. Albeit a rather cheap one, which could be excused by the whole THQ business.

However, many sequels add more than that and many add a whole new engine or at least heavily modify the previous engine. The things in the first list in my previous posts are common things expansions throw in because they are easy to throw in. Adding that in doesn't mean it is a new game. Hell, a mod can throw that stuff in with ease. The second list of 3 things are the only things vouching towards an actual sequel. Two of which don't necessarily mean anything. They could, definitely - but that doesn't "debunk" anything. As a completely neutral observer that was unaware of any whining before this thread, the OP hasn't debunked anything. DLC = expansion nowadays to many gamers. Thus, points 1 and 2 appear valid from an outside perspective even when it is worded as the OP worded it and has been discussed in the thread.

 

[Doom972]

Only 24 hours long? For a stand-alone sandbox game that's pretty short. I guess I'll get it when it becomes really cheap if that's the case. Maybe they should've released it as DLC.

compare a possible 24 hour game where as I beat it's predecessor in just over 16 hours.

including all the collections, hit lists, carjackings, challenges, gang operations, and activities.


so another eight hours of gameplay really isn't bad.



About to head to the nearest gamestop, which is actually 100 miles away, because LOL, RURAL AMERICA, to get it and trade in some really shitty games.


HEre's hoping that Black Ops II gets about $20, with all the fanboys waiting for Ghosts, someone is going to want to buy it.


who am I kidding, I'll probably get $5 and an offer to join the point club thing and/or preorder a Xbox One.

You finished everything in SR3 in 16 hours? According to Steam, it took me about 50. Enjoy SR4.

They kinda fucked up when they give you an attack helicopter so early in the game, makes gang operations a joke, and once you unlock the collection finder, well it's just a matter of flying everywhere.

Still somehow managed to beat the game without hitting level 50 though, kinda sucks, I wanted the unlimited ammo legit....

Gang Operations wasn't the problem. I took out many of them in seconds using the drone, and once I unlocked the chopper I used that of course. I didn't bother with the collections as far as I remember.

 

[D-Class 198482]

Uh, it was supposed to originally be an expansion pack. That is common knowledge.

Enter the Dominatrix
http://saintsrow.wikia.com/wiki/Enter_The_Dominatrix

Take a look at Angry Joe's interview of someone working in the production of Saints Row IV -- he mentions that Saints Row IV was in production before Saints Row the Third and they decided to replace Saints Row IV's original storyline and gameplay with Enter the Dominatrix's.
So it wasn't originally an expansion pack.

 

[DeeWiz]

I've played 7 hours so far and all this complaints about "It's and exanpsion/dlc" is bull. Do people remember expansion packs back in the day, they would barely introduce new features and were more level packs than anything. This is most definitely a full game. I'm still in tutorial missions after 7 hours (been distracted while playing), most DLC is done at this point. The gameplay has been remixed/changed for the better. Superpowers both make you feel super powerful yet don't break the game (at least on hard) which is something that is hard to do.

Long and short of it, they didn't change the engine so they could work on creating more CONTENT in a shorter period of time. I don't know about everyone else, and while I enjoy my graphics I am not that big of a snob, I think this is a Win-Win I get more saint's row in last time. The engine is perfectly decent and would have made no sense to try to upgrade it with new consoles coming (I'm playing on PC BTW), they need to guarantee the game came out before the new generation hit.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

While playing through SR IV has brought some memories of Prototype and InFamous, I found that I rather quickly ran out of shits to give. As soon as I realized that the previously tedious "insurance fraud" missions were made roughly a million times more entertaining by using a simple Super run + Super Jump + Ragdoll combo to fling myself across the length of the city I was able to forgive a lot of petty gripes.

So yeah, it's the same Saints Row defense I always use.

It's stupid and childish but I'm actually having a lot of fun with it so it gets a pass.

 

[Nosirrah]

It's totally using ideas from Crackdown and Prototype.

That's not a whine, that's a hurray.

It is. Crackdown's orb collecting was addicting and fun, while prototype's powers made exploration fun, so with fun addicting gameplay and a sense of humour makes a great game, in my opinion.

 

[The Madman]

Just finished Saints Row 4 the other day, the main story that is, there are still quite a few side missions and challenges and such I haven't done. Whatever the case it was good!

If you liked Saints Row before you'll probably like Saints Row 4. Honestly I'm just baffled where the developers could possibly go from here unless they turn Saints Row 5 into some insane galactic exploration game... which could be awesome. Hmm...

 

[Wilbot666]

It's totally using ideas from Crackdown and Prototype.

That's not a whine, that's a hurray.

This was the very first thing that came into my mind as well, I really enjoyed the section of SRTT with superspeed and I can't wait to have a go at the new game. Already paid for and pre-loaded it on Steam.

 

[rob_simple]

It's totally using ideas from Crackdown and Prototype.

That's not a whine, that's a hurray.

Spot on, they're taking good mechanics from games that were pretty average and putting them into one of the most enjoyable series of this generation.

What's not to love?

Also, OP, you may want to add to the list the people that were whining about the anal probe gun for making light of rape, and saying Volition should be shut down as a result.

I agree that actual rape is no laughing matter, but there's a time and a place, and a gun that shoots big dildos at enemies, or whatever it does exactly, is not worth crusading over.

 

[TheCommanders]

I just started playing the game last night, and despite the fact that Saints Row 2 is still my favorite of the series, I'm actually having a lot of fun. I've laughed out loud at several points, and dicking around in the city is actually an entertaining pass time. My only big complaint so far (I'm only about a third through the game, I think) is that so far, every side quest, and every other main quest is literally just 2-4 activities tied together with 1 line of voice acting by whomever gave you the quest. And it's not even a level or version of the activity unique to the mission, it's the actual activity on the map. The missions are just stringing you through the activities you could already be doing on the map. Saints Row the Third did this as well (although it was usually just 1 activity disguised as a main mission), and it annoyed me then too. Considering how fun the actual missions have been so far, this felt really lazy.

 

[saluraropicrusa]

As soon as I realized that the previously tedious "insurance fraud" missions were made roughly a million times more entertaining by using a simple Super run + Super Jump + Ragdoll combo to fling myself across the length of the city I was able to forgive a lot of petty gripes.

...........
That combo hadn't even crossed my mind, I am definitely going to have to try that next time I play that activity. Even without it I have a ton of fun with "insurance fraud."

snip

To be fair, the activities are generally a lot of fun, and you get some good rewards for doing them as side-missions (like new variations of your super powers).

Going back to Saints Row 2, while it had layer options, it had fuck all variety in clothes.
The Third might have just top, bottom and shoes. But it has clothing options that are actually wearable.

YES, THANK YOU.
As far as I remember, the only thing we've really lost from 2 are undershirt - shirt - coat, and socks--and really, how much are you really losing in that case, especially when there was so little actual variety in 2's clothes? If you're wearing all three torso layers SOMETHING isn't going to be visible, and who gives a shit what socks you're wearing? That's about as important as your underwear, and THAT didn't get dropped for 3 & 4.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Yeah I'm not interested. Saints Row has become far too stupid and goofy and it isn't even remotely funny or fun.